No insurance potential penalty?...
Discussion
A while back (Jan) I was stopped and given a producer, the time on the producer was different to the time that I was stopped indicating that the car I had just collected was not covered by any insurance while on the public road for 32 mins. I have not been able to prove this, so now that I have my court date have been adivsed by an independent BIB and lawyer to pled guilty, attend court and offer mitigating circumstances, also that I have been driving for 11 years with no previous convictions for any offence i.e. I have always had a clean licence. And the fact that I can show that I phone my insurance company several times over the couple of days prior to my collecting the car to sort out insurance quotes etc. and that I have another vehicle that is insured/taxed/MOT’s etc. indicating no intent on my part.
Given all of the above what am I likley to face?... 6 points a ban... ahuge fine + points?.... I have covered all the bases on the was I covered front so am only interested in what penalty I will be getting, MADCOP / ***999*** etc any comments?....
Given all of the above what am I likley to face?... 6 points a ban... ahuge fine + points?.... I have covered all the bases on the was I covered front so am only interested in what penalty I will be getting, MADCOP / ***999*** etc any comments?....
err.... yeah thanks for that. I have no way to prove beyond resonable doubt that the officer did indeed write down the wrong time, though as said in my orginal post the plea has been completed it's the penalty that i'm likley to get that i'm interested in, either from someone who has had a similar exp or from someone like MadCop etc. how [B]know's what they are talking about when it comes to road traffic offences
pdV6 said: Surely its for the court to prove beyond reasonable doubt that you did commit an offence rather than t'other way round?
BIB have their bit of paper that shows stopped at 'x' time I have an isurance doc that shows 'y' time they show, if taken at face value that the insurance was taken out 32mins after the ticket time. The officer would have made an entry in his black book of the stop inc. time but if his made the mistake once i.e. on the ticket then he mayw ell have made it twice. I tried to contact the office and explain this but got no where
Just want to know the likley impact to me in terms of points/ban/fine I cannot see the value in pleading guilty to this offence if you are not.
If the officer has got the time wrong, and you are convinced that there is an error on his part, then I would dispute the fact where the time is concerned.
If you plead not guilty and only require the officer that wrote the ticket to attend court, take with you all your previous expired certificates if you have them, or get a letter form your insurance company to say that you have not at any previous time driven without insurance cover on the vehicles that you own,
If you put a convincing case to the magistrates that you made all due diligent steps to get the vehicle covered for the time you were driving it. Ask the Police officer if he has ever made mistakes in the past with any documentary evidence, I would be surprised to hear him answer that he had not. Innocent errors are made all the time and ususally are picked up on by the examining CPS lawyer before the case comes to trial. The papers are sent back for ammendments to the original officer. Errors that happen are usually around times and dates. I am no stranger to making this type of error myself.
If you are going to dispute this case, then do not suggest that the officer is in anyway fabricating the evidence agaisnt you. You should make a case purely and simply that the officer had made a simple human error and nothing more. If the officer refers to his Pocket note Book in the witness box, then you can examine the book, but only the relevant entries for that day in question and not flick through the book. If he refers to his PNB outside the court (and you will have to ask him this in your cross examination) to refreh his memory, then you are entitled to examine the whole book and everything written in it.
If you are convicted of this offence, you will be asked by the magistrates if there is anything further you wish to say about it before they pass sentence.
If you genuinely were covered and the officer has got the time wrong and the insurance company and certificate verify that the insurance satrted only minutes later, you can ask the Magistrates to consider that if they find the case proved then your could invite them to consider an absolute discharge which is basically guilty but with no penalty attached due to the circumstances.
Personally, I would not plead guilty to this if I had all the required correspondance available regarding the quotes and request for commencement of time and dates of the insurance concerned.
If the officer has got the time wrong, and you are convinced that there is an error on his part, then I would dispute the fact where the time is concerned.
If you plead not guilty and only require the officer that wrote the ticket to attend court, take with you all your previous expired certificates if you have them, or get a letter form your insurance company to say that you have not at any previous time driven without insurance cover on the vehicles that you own,
If you put a convincing case to the magistrates that you made all due diligent steps to get the vehicle covered for the time you were driving it. Ask the Police officer if he has ever made mistakes in the past with any documentary evidence, I would be surprised to hear him answer that he had not. Innocent errors are made all the time and ususally are picked up on by the examining CPS lawyer before the case comes to trial. The papers are sent back for ammendments to the original officer. Errors that happen are usually around times and dates. I am no stranger to making this type of error myself.
If you are going to dispute this case, then do not suggest that the officer is in anyway fabricating the evidence agaisnt you. You should make a case purely and simply that the officer had made a simple human error and nothing more. If the officer refers to his Pocket note Book in the witness box, then you can examine the book, but only the relevant entries for that day in question and not flick through the book. If he refers to his PNB outside the court (and you will have to ask him this in your cross examination) to refreh his memory, then you are entitled to examine the whole book and everything written in it.
If you are convicted of this offence, you will be asked by the magistrates if there is anything further you wish to say about it before they pass sentence.
If you genuinely were covered and the officer has got the time wrong and the insurance company and certificate verify that the insurance satrted only minutes later, you can ask the Magistrates to consider that if they find the case proved then your could invite them to consider an absolute discharge which is basically guilty but with no penalty attached due to the circumstances.
Personally, I would not plead guilty to this if I had all the required correspondance available regarding the quotes and request for commencement of time and dates of the insurance concerned.
If you check some of the other threads here you'll see that the courts are quite happy to accept that the police can sometimes get incidental details wrong and allow them to be corrected when it comes to issuing speeding tickets etc. Surely this should work both ways? If an officer can things like type car or road junction wrong, then they can write down the wrong time just as easily.
d_drinks said: madcop thanks for the reply though you haven't mentioned likely penalties for this as a first offence, can you offer any suggestions on this front?..
I can't tell you about financial penalty as I don't know your circumstances. Bobthebench mentioned that fines are worked out on how much the court decides you can afford to spare per week after all your outgoings X 100.
The penalty regarding the endorsement is covered by Schedule 2 & 3 to the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988
It states that the fine is at level 5 on the standard scale, disqualification is discretionary and endorsement obligatory with 6-8 points (unless absolute discharge is awarded)
In all probablility you would look at perhaps a £300 fine and 6 points if you are a normal decent sort of chap on a regular wage, but this is purely guess work on what I see going through the courts.
I haven't a clue whether what I am about to say helps, or you may have looked anyway. But when you were stopped did the policeman also do check on the computer as to who, what etc the vehicle was? If so wouldn't those records be kept, and wouldn't that prove that the time on the ticket was wrong?
Pleading guilty to an offense you haven't committed, with the prospect of 6 points, seems a ridiculous option. It might be easier for the lawyers, but you only need a small lapse in concentration to pass a speed camera twice in the next 3 years and its "Bye Bye" licence. Not only that but I suspect an offence of driving without insurance is liable to do pretty horrible things to your premium.
Pleading guilty to an offense you haven't committed, with the prospect of 6 points, seems a ridiculous option. It might be easier for the lawyers, but you only need a small lapse in concentration to pass a speed camera twice in the next 3 years and its "Bye Bye" licence. Not only that but I suspect an offence of driving without insurance is liable to do pretty horrible things to your premium.
I was once asked to produce documents (I was 18 at the time). My licence wa already away being endorsed so I couldnt produce it. they then failed to find me on the DVLA records and so I got a summons for no licence, no provisional, no L plates, no person next to me etc... I went to the police station - they said plead guilty but with mitigating circumstances that your licence was away being endorsed (deppsite it being an admin cock up). I then took my dad down there (after I admitted to him I had been done twice in a month) and he spoke to the office in charge who had a brain and who apologised to me , stopped the charge and court order and wrote me a letter apologising. Never plead guilty for motoring offences where you are not guilty.
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