What kinda seven for under 5K£
Discussion
Hi
I'm still in middle of selling my 944, but all ready looking for 7.
So here's the deal, I live in Finland and we have nasty law's here that wont allow me to MOT newer than 1991 Kit Car (or yes I can, but I need to proof smog's by TÛV etc. paper and I SVA paper isnt enuf).
So what 7 is mine? What I'm looking for 5k£ (hoping to find) is BEC or 2.0 pinto engined seven with separated front wings, hopefully independent rear with LSD, 5sp, no extra luxury (radio why?) and weather gear (I do love those aero screens). Maybe even LHD, alltho it cant be that hard to change it RHD -> LHD. Older the better, cos I have to pay less TAX. 2.0 engine cos I can legally tune or upgrade it only +20% in cc.
What is there available before 1991? Robin Hood's dont look good, Caterham's are pricey so Westie seems to be the one, anything that I dont know? What is the major difference on drive between Westie and Caterham? Let's say that they'r both 1.6 and live rear. Where's "the big difference"?
There's only handful of sevens here in Finland so to testdrive a one is hard days work, what should I be looking when I get behind the wheel? Should be quick for sure. Did I make any sence, hope so..
Samuli
I'm still in middle of selling my 944, but all ready looking for 7.
So here's the deal, I live in Finland and we have nasty law's here that wont allow me to MOT newer than 1991 Kit Car (or yes I can, but I need to proof smog's by TÛV etc. paper and I SVA paper isnt enuf).
So what 7 is mine? What I'm looking for 5k£ (hoping to find) is BEC or 2.0 pinto engined seven with separated front wings, hopefully independent rear with LSD, 5sp, no extra luxury (radio why?) and weather gear (I do love those aero screens). Maybe even LHD, alltho it cant be that hard to change it RHD -> LHD. Older the better, cos I have to pay less TAX. 2.0 engine cos I can legally tune or upgrade it only +20% in cc.
What is there available before 1991? Robin Hood's dont look good, Caterham's are pricey so Westie seems to be the one, anything that I dont know? What is the major difference on drive between Westie and Caterham? Let's say that they'r both 1.6 and live rear. Where's "the big difference"?
There's only handful of sevens here in Finland so to testdrive a one is hard days work, what should I be looking when I get behind the wheel? Should be quick for sure. Did I make any sence, hope so..
Samuli
Edited by SamuliS on Sunday 6th May 01:12
Edited by SamuliS on Sunday 6th May 01:13
Westfield were active then, pre-litigation cars are very similar to Caterhams of the time in appearance but no idea of under the skin.
I've heard they're very similar to the basic Locost chassis, so not fantastic but perfectly capable.
Can't remember when Westfield changed the design to what is still being sold today but the newer model might just sneak into your timeframe?
Also have a look at the Sylva Striker Mk2, very light and agile, well proven on race tracks, they were being built at the turn of the '90s I'm sure.
There's also the Mohr Rush if you can find one, LHD and they do look good... see this for a recent purchase in Denmark.
Sorry I can't compare any of them to Caterhams. Never owned one or even seen one up close enough to make a judgement on them!
I've heard they're very similar to the basic Locost chassis, so not fantastic but perfectly capable.
Can't remember when Westfield changed the design to what is still being sold today but the newer model might just sneak into your timeframe?
Also have a look at the Sylva Striker Mk2, very light and agile, well proven on race tracks, they were being built at the turn of the '90s I'm sure.
There's also the Mohr Rush if you can find one, LHD and they do look good... see this for a recent purchase in Denmark.
Sorry I can't compare any of them to Caterhams. Never owned one or even seen one up close enough to make a judgement on them!
There's a pre-lit 1989 Westfield with an R1 bike engine in the classifieds here for £5k which has been up for sale for a while. The bonnet aesthetics leave a lot to be desired (probably a big reason why it hasnt sold) and I think its still slightly over-valued when comparing it against the same age Westfields that dont have a bike engine, but the bonnet should be sortable fairly easily and an aeroscreen is easily fitted if you don't like the windscreen, so at the right price it would be a good buy.
Edited by Locoblade on Sunday 6th May 15:07
You'll also find some kit cars registered on age related plates (related to the donor vehicle) so even if the car was built recently, you might find one that is registered earlier. It depends on how your authorities judge the car's age though, if its done on registration plate then you'd be OK so could get something much newer.
FNG said:
Westfield were active then, pre-litigation cars are very similar to Caterhams of the time in appearance but no idea of under the skin.
The Westfield chassis is broadly similar to the Caterham one, except it is more substantial, especially in the transmission tunnel area.
FNG said:
Can't remember when Westfield changed the design to what is still being sold today but the newer model might just sneak into your timeframe?
It was about 1988/1989.
FNG said:
Sorry I can't compare any of them to Caterhams. Never owned one or even seen one up close enough to make a judgement on them!
I have built both a 1986 pre-lit Westfield and a 2000 Caterham.
The Westfield is a decent piece of equipment. Whether it is live axle or IRS, with careful setting up it can be made to handle as well, if not better than the comparable Caterham.
The early pre-lit Westfields had ally bodywork and were all live axle. They are almost indistinguishable from a Caterham unless one looks for the square transmission tunnel in the Westfield or the design of the rear suspension. These ally bodied Westfields are very rare and are correspondingly expensive.
The fibreglass bodied pre-lit cars are cheaper, but still pretty rare.
The most common Westfield is the post litigation car which can be had with live axle or IRS. Not sure whether the IRS was available before 1991.
For less than £5000 and pre 1991 you are really looking for a post litigation live axle Westfield. The live axle isn't massively inferior to the IRS.
Personally, I would look for a Crossflow engined car rather than the heavy Pinto lump.
Quality of finish is down to the skill of the original builder. I have seen Westfields so nicely built that they put a Caterham to shame, but that is very much the exception to the rule.
There are a lot of crap Westfields out there.
Bike engined Westfields only made an appearance long after 1991.
First of all, thank you all for your replies.
That one I´we had on my mind, dont mind the looks, that can be fix'd. How does the car look to your eye? Anything that could be seen on pics that I dont realize? I,we been wondering does it have reverse gear and have they done anything to its suspension while they change'd the engine.
Btw what kinda axle (or chain) does it (BEC) use between engine and rear?
Yes, thats what I'm looking for, car thats older than 1991 and shows it on V5. They cant proof here that its been build recently. If I understund it right, in my sittuation its better to avoid Q plated cars.
How does the plates go? As what year and what alphabet?
What kinda car 7 is to drive?? As I dream'd and saved a year to get my Porsche just to realize, altho it is good car, it wasnt what I had in my mind about a sportcar. After owning my 944 I'we realized that Im more into screaming lite cars where I'll have to work to keep it on the boil. So about 7's, I'we told my self, it supposed to be super nimble, fast, hard accelerating car that changes directions by thought
Personally (offcourse) Id like to have IRS, but if you say that properly set up will make it work "aswell" I think I can live with that. More important is the LSD.
Pinto is heavy and Xflow old'ish. To tune/upgrade Pinto is better here, there's been so many Escorts/Taunus that theres shedloads of tuningparts and knowhow, and most of all, I need to have big engine on paper .
Yes, so Im looking rebuilded car to have pre -91 BEC.
Locoblade said:
There's a pre-lit 1989 Westfield with an R1 bike engine in the classifieds here for £5k which has been up for sale for a while. The bonnet aesthetics leave a lot to be desired.
That one I´we had on my mind, dont mind the looks, that can be fix'd. How does the car look to your eye? Anything that could be seen on pics that I dont realize? I,we been wondering does it have reverse gear and have they done anything to its suspension while they change'd the engine.
Btw what kinda axle (or chain) does it (BEC) use between engine and rear?
Locoblade said:
You'll also find some kit cars registered on age related plates (related to the donor vehicle) so even if the car was built recently, you might find one that is registered earlier.
Yes, thats what I'm looking for, car thats older than 1991 and shows it on V5. They cant proof here that its been build recently. If I understund it right, in my sittuation its better to avoid Q plated cars.
How does the plates go? As what year and what alphabet?
Pat H said:
I have built both a 1986 pre-lit Westfield and a 2000 Caterham.
The Westfield is a decent piece of equipment. Whether it is live axle or IRS, with careful setting up it can be made to handle as well, if not better than the comparable Caterham.
The Westfield is a decent piece of equipment. Whether it is live axle or IRS, with careful setting up it can be made to handle as well, if not better than the comparable Caterham.
What kinda car 7 is to drive?? As I dream'd and saved a year to get my Porsche just to realize, altho it is good car, it wasnt what I had in my mind about a sportcar. After owning my 944 I'we realized that Im more into screaming lite cars where I'll have to work to keep it on the boil. So about 7's, I'we told my self, it supposed to be super nimble, fast, hard accelerating car that changes directions by thought
Pat H said:
For less than £5000 and pre 1991 you are really looking for a post litigation live axle Westfield. The live axle isn't massively inferior to the IRS.
Personally (offcourse) Id like to have IRS, but if you say that properly set up will make it work "aswell" I think I can live with that. More important is the LSD.
Pat H said:
Personally, I would look for a Crossflow engined car rather than the heavy Pinto lump.
Pinto is heavy and Xflow old'ish. To tune/upgrade Pinto is better here, there's been so many Escorts/Taunus that theres shedloads of tuningparts and knowhow, and most of all, I need to have big engine on paper
. Pat H said:
Bike engined Westfields only made an appearance long after 1991.
Yes, so Im looking rebuilded car to have pre -91 BEC.
SamuliS said:
Locoblade said:
There's a pre-lit 1989 Westfield with an R1 bike engine in the classifieds here for £5k which has been up for sale for a while. The bonnet aesthetics leave a lot to be desired.
That one I´we had on my mind, dont mind the looks, that can be fix'd. How does the car look to your eye? Anything that could be seen on pics that I dont realize? I,we been wondering does it have reverse gear and have they done anything to its suspension while they change'd the engine.
Btw what kinda axle (or chain) does it (BEC) use between engine and rear?
Locoblade said:
You'll also find some kit cars registered on age related plates (related to the donor vehicle) so even if the car was built recently, you might find one that is registered earlier.
Yes, thats what I'm looking for, car thats older than 1991 and shows it on V5. They cant proof here that its been build recently. If I understund it right, in my sittuation its better to avoid Q plated cars.
How does the plates go? As what year and what alphabet?
Its hard to judge from the pictures obviously, but it's general condition looks OK from what I can see, the only thing that obviously stands out is the engine mounted far too high. I wonder whther they've used the stock bike manifold (which goes under the engine sump) hence the need to mount it so high. If so, it shouldnt be too much of an engineering exercise to make up new engine mounts, lower the engine and get a proper exhaust made. Changing suspension for a bike engine is only a matter of changing springs, so if they haven't done that its an easy fix anyway.
The Q plate may cause you problems though as in the UK anything registered as a Q indicates the car is made from parts of unknown age. In kit car terms it generally means the parts were sourced from multiple donor vehicles rather than a single car. It depends how your authorities look at it though, if they look at the logbook at the car's registration date then you should be OK, if they ask for the numberplate and use that to age the car, you'll probably have problems.
As to registration ages, there's a guide I found here that should help, but basically it pans out like this:
Anything with the new numberplate system with 2 letters, 2 numbers then three letters (e.g. AB51 ABC) is 2001 onwards so too new.
If the numberplate has a letter at the end (e.g. the X in ABC 123X), this would be July 1983 or earlier so anything would be suitable with these plates (assuming a newly built car hasnt got an age related plate of it's donor as mentioned above)
Anything with a G plate prefix or earlier (e.g. G123 ABC) guarantees its 1990 or ealier, although H goes from mid 1990 to mid 1991 so some would also be suitable. Anything J or later is too new.
Edited by Locoblade on Monday 7th May 22:49
Thank you Locoblade
No, theyr after V5 (thats the registeration paper?)/logbook. They dont even see those plates, just to make my life easier while looking car, some cars have F reg and sales ad tell's theyr build -04.
Thanks alot about those reg years, makes way more sense now.
Btw, is it big thing/work to get SORN'd car back on road, what is minimum TAX you can pay (time) and do you get unused tax time back?
Locoblade said:
Thing that obviously stands out is the engine mounted far too high. I wonder whther they've used the stock bike manifold (which goes under the engine sump) hence the need to mount it so high. If so, it shouldnt be too much of an engineering exercise to make up new engine mounts, lower the engine and get a proper exhaust made. Changing suspension for a bike engine is only a matter of changing springs, so if they haven't done that its an easy fix anyway.
Yes, that's obvious and isn't (cant be) "that" big thing to change, didn't think/realize that exhaust needs redoing. Locoblade said:
The Q plate may cause you problems though as in the UK anything registered as a Q indicates the car is made from parts of unknown age. In kit car terms it generally means the parts were sourced from multiple donor vehicles rather than a single car. It depends how your authorities look at it though, if they look at the logbook at the car's registration date then you should be OK, if they ask for the numberplate and use that to age the car, you'll probably have problems.
No, theyr after V5 (thats the registeration paper?)/logbook. They dont even see those plates, just to make my life easier while looking car, some cars have F reg and sales ad tell's theyr build -04.
Thanks alot about those reg years, makes way more sense now.
Btw, is it big thing/work to get SORN'd car back on road, what is minimum TAX you can pay (time) and do you get unused tax time back?
Edited by SamuliS on Monday 7th May 23:54
Edited by SamuliS on Monday 7th May 23:56
SamuliS said:
Btw, is it big thing/work to get SORN'd car back on road, what is minimum TAX you can pay (time) and do you get unused tax time back?
Pretty straightforward.
You will need an MOT, insurance and about £90 for your car tax.
You can get a refund for any complete months of tax that you don't use.
hi. a friend of mine bought a westfield seven (built 1989) last december for 4100,-pound!
the car was in very,very good condition. paintwork ok, chassis absolutely perfect. the car has an optimized and freshly overhauled lotus twincam big-valve engine, bored to 1750cc. westfield independant rear suspension, 5-speed quick-shift gearbox. full weather gear. perfect 4-spoke revolution wheels, vdo-instrumentation.....
calculating that such an engine itself is worth 2000-3000,- pound you know now how much you should spent in a kitcar.
ok, we bought the car in wintertime and we searched every advert throughout the net over a period of 4months. but you see-->its possible.
the car was in very,very good condition. paintwork ok, chassis absolutely perfect. the car has an optimized and freshly overhauled lotus twincam big-valve engine, bored to 1750cc. westfield independant rear suspension, 5-speed quick-shift gearbox. full weather gear. perfect 4-spoke revolution wheels, vdo-instrumentation.....
calculating that such an engine itself is worth 2000-3000,- pound you know now how much you should spent in a kitcar.
ok, we bought the car in wintertime and we searched every advert throughout the net over a period of 4months. but you see-->its possible.
Thanks again.
I quess in my sittuation I dont need more than 1 day TAX, just to drive to Dover. But knowing TAXman, they dont do lesser? than one month.
This is what I'm after (arent we all), something nice for good price, best what I can get with my money. BEC's are winning my heart, I think that R1 would be really nice, cos Busa's are out, too pricey and I have good mechanic with R1.
Locoblade said:
Tax on the bike engine is £63.50 for 6 months, due to the 998cc engine.
I quess in my sittuation I dont need more than 1 day TAX, just to drive to Dover. But knowing TAXman, they dont do lesser? than one month.
COMADIS said:
hi. a friend of mine bought a westfield seven (built 1989) last december for 4100,-pound!
ok, we bought the car in wintertime and we searched every advert throughout the net over a period of 4months. but you see-->its possible.
ok, we bought the car in wintertime and we searched every advert throughout the net over a period of 4months. but you see-->its possible.
This is what I'm after (arent we all), something nice for good price, best what I can get with my money. BEC's are winning my heart, I think that R1 would be really nice, cos Busa's are out, too pricey and I have good mechanic with R1.
only to add:
i dont know if the westfield was a real bargain: it was advertized nearly 6months and nobody wanted it....ok: the only things what now got damaged in 1 year was the banjo-differntial(which was already wining when we picked-up the car)-->50,-€ nearly new diff, new seals for the halfsahfts and also a new clutch was necessary--> 2 weekends work. thats it.
the 1991 deadline is valid in nearly every european country as this was the deadline where it wasnt allowed anymore to registrate non-catalytic-converted cars. no problem for newer ones,if this kitcar has a controlled catalytic converter fitted.
age related plates are a special "thing" in UK because of your kit-car market, which is not existing in other countries.
e.g.: buying a westfield built in 2000 but running on a donor plate of 1975 will confuse the official instituations here: legally it must be registrated not earlier than it was built. also westfield didnt exist in 1975. but often our instituations close both eyes and will let it pass.
next thing: bike-engined ones: same problem: registration after 1991--> needs a cat. another problem: no reverse gear-->no mot (TÜV)-->no registration.
i dont know if the westfield was a real bargain: it was advertized nearly 6months and nobody wanted it....ok: the only things what now got damaged in 1 year was the banjo-differntial(which was already wining when we picked-up the car)-->50,-€ nearly new diff, new seals for the halfsahfts and also a new clutch was necessary--> 2 weekends work. thats it.
the 1991 deadline is valid in nearly every european country as this was the deadline where it wasnt allowed anymore to registrate non-catalytic-converted cars. no problem for newer ones,if this kitcar has a controlled catalytic converter fitted.
age related plates are a special "thing" in UK because of your kit-car market, which is not existing in other countries.
e.g.: buying a westfield built in 2000 but running on a donor plate of 1975 will confuse the official instituations here: legally it must be registrated not earlier than it was built. also westfield didnt exist in 1975. but often our instituations close both eyes and will let it pass.
next thing: bike-engined ones: same problem: registration after 1991--> needs a cat. another problem: no reverse gear-->no mot (TÜV)-->no registration.
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