GT2 understeer
Discussion
Chaps I'm really getting into this GT2 in a big way -- just had another 130+ mile drive on good a-roads and (sadly) motorways...
It's definitely some car this, absolutely love it -- even got the frikkin radio to sound half reasonable by a bit of adjustment. It sounds brasher than the turbo, revs more nicely, feels wonderful on the road, proper tight gearchange and with all that carbon and the fabric recaros is just a fantabulous place to be. Oh and it's really fast too...
But I'm not sure about this understeer. I'm a bit of an early on the gas man (probably a legacy of the turbo) but I'm turning in a bit harder than I did in the turbo taking advantage of that fabulous turn in / early corner bite and I can feather the throttle until opening it a progressively more at the apex to get a great exit. But if I decide to compensate for a slower than I'd have liked turn in by getting on the gas a little bit pre-apex, it seems to translate into front end push.
Is this just something I need to learn to get around by getting into the corner fast enough and then riding it gently to just after the apex before trying to accelerate, or do I need to adjust the car a little?
Perhaps years of tear arsing around racetracks on bikes has made me a bit dyed in the wool slow in fast out, a nice measure of throttle hand pre apex just settles the bike nicely ready to find some drive ready for mid-corner.
Cheers!
SM
It's definitely some car this, absolutely love it -- even got the frikkin radio to sound half reasonable by a bit of adjustment. It sounds brasher than the turbo, revs more nicely, feels wonderful on the road, proper tight gearchange and with all that carbon and the fabric recaros is just a fantabulous place to be. Oh and it's really fast too...
But I'm not sure about this understeer. I'm a bit of an early on the gas man (probably a legacy of the turbo) but I'm turning in a bit harder than I did in the turbo taking advantage of that fabulous turn in / early corner bite and I can feather the throttle until opening it a progressively more at the apex to get a great exit. But if I decide to compensate for a slower than I'd have liked turn in by getting on the gas a little bit pre-apex, it seems to translate into front end push.
Is this just something I need to learn to get around by getting into the corner fast enough and then riding it gently to just after the apex before trying to accelerate, or do I need to adjust the car a little?
Perhaps years of tear arsing around racetracks on bikes has made me a bit dyed in the wool slow in fast out, a nice measure of throttle hand pre apex just settles the bike nicely ready to find some drive ready for mid-corner.
Cheers!
SM
Good to hear your enjoying the car and using it how it was intended. 
Providing your car is running standard factory geometry settings, you'll find that understeer is the norm in these cars, they were setup from the factory this way to compensate for the lack of AWD and PSM.
The reassuring point is that understeer can be toned down or dialled out due to the fully adjustable suspension setup on the car. My advice would be to find a competent specialist like Fearnsport/Parr/JZM etc. and work with them on how you'd like your settings.
Safe driving.
C.
Providing your car is running standard factory geometry settings, you'll find that understeer is the norm in these cars, they were setup from the factory this way to compensate for the lack of AWD and PSM.
The reassuring point is that understeer can be toned down or dialled out due to the fully adjustable suspension setup on the car
. My advice would be to find a competent specialist like Fearnsport/Parr/JZM etc. and work with them on how you'd like your settings. Safe driving.
C.
Sounds about right to me.
Its probably mainly weight transfer.
I am generally on the throttle (track) just before the apex going in quite fast if i did not get on the throttle the back end would step out so its quite a good thing.
When i got the car, having driven 993's i was surprised how much you can chuck it into a corner at low speed.
Keep playing, you may find you like the understeer effect on throttle as you speed up into the corners.
Its probably mainly weight transfer.
I am generally on the throttle (track) just before the apex going in quite fast if i did not get on the throttle the back end would step out so its quite a good thing.
When i got the car, having driven 993's i was surprised how much you can chuck it into a corner at low speed.
Keep playing, you may find you like the understeer effect on throttle as you speed up into the corners.
testarossa said:
Push harder!
It's probably your set up. Mine is completely standard (but I'm sure it could be dialled in to be more comfortable!!!!) I take the understeer as a warning that it's preparing to kill me, so I'm grateful for it!
It's probably your set up. Mine is completely standard (but I'm sure it could be dialled in to be more comfortable!!!!) I take the understeer as a warning that it's preparing to kill me, so I'm grateful for it!
Aw, come on it's a pussycat. Not trying to kill you at all, just trying to tell you it needs to be tickled a bit differently surely. Driving a GT2 fast is (probably) like making love to a beautiful woman*...
SM
*jessica wabbit, any insights here for us?
Edited by supermono on Sunday 6th May 13:25
Recently had my gt2 geo'd at my local Porsche Centre and asked them to set front as per 2004 gt3 rs and therefore 2004 gt2 settings. It made the turn in far crisper and as for the understeer - gone. Unfortunately or fortunately I am yet to experience the limit where oversteer now occurs, although with the previous set up it would predictably flick from understeer to oversteer and back.
Basically it depends on what you want, ok turn in with warning, or scalpel sharp without.
Seeing as you are relatively new to the car, and if it is a big issue perhaps Lovett's would geo out your understeer gratis.....
Basically it depends on what you want, ok turn in with warning, or scalpel sharp without.
Seeing as you are relatively new to the car, and if it is a big issue perhaps Lovett's would geo out your understeer gratis.....
Edited by jammmy on Sunday 6th May 15:09
Agree that a proper geo setting will neutralise this situation. That said the front of the car will work best if you can be tempted to turn in off the throttle (rather than trailing throttle which will result in the situation you describe) and bringing in the power as you unwind, nailing it once your wheels are amidships. You will be shocked how hard the front will dig in but do be ready to send the weight back to the rears pdq with a squeeze of power if the rear grip gives out. A good investment is some track time with a experienced Porsche racing instructor who will show you how to get the best from it. A few hours with the like of John Bussell is a guaranteed eye opener......
SM ~ can you be more specific, do you want my opinion on lovemaking or GT2 understeer?? LOL!
Victoria.
xx
P.S. Idle curiosity, but is it just me or do others get the same kicks taking passengers down bumpy lanes and laugh at their attempts to speak whilst having their teeth shaken out? Reminds me of that Carry On sketch where he does down the stairs on a wheeled trolly (with obviously NO suspension!).
Victoria.
xx
P.S. Idle curiosity, but is it just me or do others get the same kicks taking passengers down bumpy lanes and laugh at their attempts to speak whilst having their teeth shaken out? Reminds me of that Carry On sketch where he does down the stairs on a wheeled trolly (with obviously NO suspension!).
A good geo set up is a must. Trackdays will help you understand what the car is doing without attempting to kill yourself. I have never driven a GT2 but from 996 supercup experience braking deeper into the corner and in effect continuing to load the front end should help you negate the understeer.
It's not just you Victoria, the screaming ones are fun, but the best ones are the speed freaks who try to hide their fear by trying to have a conversation like "So, what's the fastest you've.......................beeeeeeeeeeeeeeen..............................iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn...................................................................................this?"
supermono said:
But I'm not sure about this understeer. I'm a bit of an early on the gas man (probably a legacy of the turbo) but I'm turning in a bit harder than I did in the turbo taking advantage of that fabulous turn in / early corner bite and I can feather the throttle until opening it a progressively more at the apex to get a great exit. But if I decide to compensate for a slower than I'd have liked turn in by getting on the gas a little bit pre-apex, it seems to translate into front end push.
If I understand what you are saying, you are trying to compensate for turn in understeer with more throttle? You don't want to do that as it will just push wide, and any RWD car without death wish geo would do the same. As others have said if you want more turn in you need to manage the weight transfer on the front, but in all honesty I can't recommend this approach on the road. Its just not necessary at road speeds and if you hit a bad patch of tarmac/bump you are going to have a lot less options and with all the weight over the front the car is more likely to be forced to follow any bumps/camber. Have a play on track and get used to what the options are, but I suspect you'll agree with me - its just not that nice on the road. You are right about stabilising the car on the throttle though after the turn in and if you get it right it should feel planted and not push, part of that is timing it right and part is judging the throttle application correctly.
Anyway have fun!
DanH said:
If I understand what you are saying, you are trying to compensate for turn in understeer with more throttle?
No I'm turning in just fine without a jot of understeer but being a bit of a pooftah I sometimes turn in with less speed than I'd like, and in any case I tend to start accelerating soon after turn in, and it's this which is causing the front to push out a touch so I can't really do it.
Seems from what you and others have said that's how these cars work so I'm not going to adjust anything (apart from me!)
Armed with this knowledge I think the procedure seems to be carry a bit of brake into the turn, but watch out for oversteer, ride it into the turn right to the apex on a neutral throttle and then start feeling for a little drive/mid corner grip when you start unwinding.
It's kind of what I'd already discovered I think but it's nice to hear some words from people who actually know what they're doing!
SM
supermono said:
DanH said:
If I understand what you are saying, you are trying to compensate for turn in understeer with more throttle?
No I'm turning in just fine without a jot of understeer but being a bit of a pooftah I sometimes turn in with less speed than I'd like, and in any case I tend to start accelerating soon after turn in, and it's this which is causing the front to push out a touch so I can't really do it.
Seems from what you and others have said that's how these cars work so I'm not going to adjust anything (apart from me!)
Armed with this knowledge I think the procedure seems to be carry a bit of brake into the turn, but watch out for oversteer, ride it into the turn right to the apex on a neutral throttle and then start feeling for a little drive/mid corner grip when you start unwinding.
It's kind of what I'd already discovered I think but it's nice to hear some words from people who actually know what they're doing!
SM
Personally I trail brake on track, but on the road I'm happier just working around the understeer and going in on a balanced throttle to keep the car stable and planted. This is what I was taught by a couple of roadcraft instructors (one who raced professionally) and it makes sense to me as you'll find the weight being over the front does make it very sensitive to mid corner bumps & cambers. Not an issue on track generally (and if it is you learn the corner and work around it), but on roads you don't know intimately you don't want to suddenly be jinked into oncoming traffic. It's also not pleasant for passengers. I've never needed the extra turn in that that trail braking provides on the road and to be honest I'm a little alarmed at people advocating being so on the limit that oversteer is a frequent risk. Doesn't leave any room for errors or someone on a motorbike coming the opposite way and leaning over the line etc. With cars this quick you simply can't push that hard on most roads without discarding any sense of social responsibility.
IMHO, definitely worth getting the GT2 out on a load of trackdays where you can really explore it's limits.
loach said:
Sounds like you've been presented with a wonderful excuse to get to grips with the challenge of learning to left foot brake. Might help a little bit - wouldn't recommend it if you've PCCBs, though, as they're likely to be as durable as cheese if abused.
Never found left foot braking necessary in a 911. Track days will be your best source of knowledge. It allows you how to learn how to drive around a problem that the car might have inherently built in or a problem with your style of driving. No offence intended.
Basic common sense dictates that in a powerfull 911 stomping on the throttle near the apex will make the front lift, create more rear grip and unload the front end and therefore create power understeer. The track will be your best place to explore different options. As an experienced rider you won't have a problem altering your style and finding out what works for your car.
Something that has always puzzled me a bit. Gt2, along with many other cars is set up to understeer because it's 'safe'. Why is understeer considered to be the safer option? Take two unskilled drivers and it seems to me that on the road, understeer puts you head on into oncoming traffic and oversteer puts you side or rear into it.
graeme36s said:
loach said:
Sounds like you've been presented with a wonderful excuse to get to grips with the challenge of learning to left foot brake. Might help a little bit - wouldn't recommend it if you've PCCBs, though, as they're likely to be as durable as cheese if abused.
Never found left foot braking necessary in a 911. Track days will be your best source of knowledge. It allows you how to learn how to drive around a problem that the car might have inherently built in or a problem with your style of driving. No offence intended.
It's on my mind at the minute because I have to do it everywhere in the GP when I'm tanking on through fast and greasy bends to help stop it understeering off the road, up the kerb and into a bus-stop. I don't recall ever having felt the need to do it in a 911 either, but now that I'm getting better at it, I may use it more in future. Just an idea. No offence taken.
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