Are the Police in an impossible position?
Discussion
This was initiated by reading a post on the Porsche section about a brush a member had with the law after trying to apprehend some neds who left a petrol station without paying. Quite a few of us have this impression that the police would rather prosecute us for something trivial than tackle some of the more serious lawbreakers. The speed camera thing has been argued to death, and I am not trying to start another spate of abuse on that front, justified or not. But have we a real problem in this country? Is the following a reflection of what is actually going on or am I entirely wrong?
Do the Police want to tackle real criminals? It puts them in danger and even if they do - and I'm sure quite a few would be up for it - they will get into serious paperwork then a legal smartarse will get the crook off and make them look stupid. If they go in heavy and turn out to be wrong they needn't expect any support from their top management or politicians for that matter. What politician stood up after the De Menezes shooting to offer support? More likely they will be fired and lose their pension, or at best be transferred to the Archive department for the next 30 years.
But they have prosecution targets to meet, so they prosecute respectable people for minor technical issues, speed camera fines and, I now hear, charge children with assault for throwing slices of cucumber from sandwiches, at their friends. Friends, I fear that this country is not going to pull out of the spin, which I greatly regret.
Next, why is it that police in the UK will drive Mercs and BMWs but NEVER a British car like a Jag which I would have thought was eminently qualified for the job. I really don't think that a Police Beemer is going to catch me in my XJR if it came down to it, which it won't of course. Furthermore the calm, alert and controlled state of mind created by driving this fantastic vehicle is such that you always spot the BiB miles ahead, tucked up slip roads or hiding in front of slow moving vans, purely as an academic exercise of course. Do the the French, the Italians or even the Germans, god bless em, carry on in this fashion? Not a chance.They ALL drive home produced vehicles. Who in the Force is responsible for buying cars? Do they realise the effect that this is undoubtedly having on employment in the UK? Or is expressing a view like this now itself illegal notwithstanding that it is being done flagrantly throughout mainland Europe?
Do the Police want to tackle real criminals? It puts them in danger and even if they do - and I'm sure quite a few would be up for it - they will get into serious paperwork then a legal smartarse will get the crook off and make them look stupid. If they go in heavy and turn out to be wrong they needn't expect any support from their top management or politicians for that matter. What politician stood up after the De Menezes shooting to offer support? More likely they will be fired and lose their pension, or at best be transferred to the Archive department for the next 30 years.
But they have prosecution targets to meet, so they prosecute respectable people for minor technical issues, speed camera fines and, I now hear, charge children with assault for throwing slices of cucumber from sandwiches, at their friends. Friends, I fear that this country is not going to pull out of the spin, which I greatly regret.
Next, why is it that police in the UK will drive Mercs and BMWs but NEVER a British car like a Jag which I would have thought was eminently qualified for the job. I really don't think that a Police Beemer is going to catch me in my XJR if it came down to it, which it won't of course. Furthermore the calm, alert and controlled state of mind created by driving this fantastic vehicle is such that you always spot the BiB miles ahead, tucked up slip roads or hiding in front of slow moving vans, purely as an academic exercise of course. Do the the French, the Italians or even the Germans, god bless em, carry on in this fashion? Not a chance.They ALL drive home produced vehicles. Who in the Force is responsible for buying cars? Do they realise the effect that this is undoubtedly having on employment in the UK? Or is expressing a view like this now itself illegal notwithstanding that it is being done flagrantly throughout mainland Europe?
Edited by cardigankid on Tuesday 15th May 18:09
cardigankid said:
f they go in heavy and turn out to be wrong they needn't expect any support from their top management or politicians for that matter. What politician stood up after the De Menezes shooting to offer support? More likely they will be fired and lose their pension, or at best be transferred to the Archive department for the next 30 years.
Mr De Menezes was killed and was not involved in terrorism. What charges do any police officers currently face?
Can you name one incident where the police have killed someone, or someone has died while in their care and there has been a successful prosecution of the police officers involved?
The case you are trying to make, that the police get no protection looks rather shaky to me.
Edited by Fittster on Tuesday 15th May 18:04
Its tragic but does it do any good to blame the Police Officers concerned? They didn't set out to murder him. Mr Joe Public was and is in severe danger of being blown to bits on the public transport and I would say that someone in authority should have the guts to say this sort of thing is possible and if you are asked to stop by a member of the force you should do so. That itself has ramifications which need to be discussed.
I would acknowledge that the police are not perfect, God knows they're not nor anyone else for that matter, and mistakes get made. What I'm saying is that the environment we are creating is making that worse for all of us. Instead of doing what they should they are increasingly forced to do what they shouldn't. or am I wrong.
I would acknowledge that the police are not perfect, God knows they're not nor anyone else for that matter, and mistakes get made. What I'm saying is that the environment we are creating is making that worse for all of us. Instead of doing what they should they are increasingly forced to do what they shouldn't. or am I wrong.
cardigankid said:
Next, why is it that police in the UK will drive Mercs and BMWs but NEVER a British car like a Jag which I would have thought was eminently qualified for the job. I really don't think that a Police Beemer is going to catch me in my XJR if it came down to it, which it won't of course. Furthermore the calm, alert and controlled state of mind created by driving this fantastic vehicle is such that you always spot the BiB miles ahead, tucked up slip roads or hiding in front of slow moving vans, purely as an academic exercise of course. Do the the French, the Italians or even the Germans, god bless em, carry on in this fashion? Not a chance.They ALL drive home produced vehicles. Who in the Force is responsible for buying cars? Do they realise the effect that this is undoubtedly having on employment in the UK? Or is expressing a view like this now itself illegal notwithstanding that it is being done flagrantly throughout mainland Europe?
Edited by cardigankid on Tuesday 15th May 18:09
Really don't understand this point, why does it matter which foreign owned car company the police forces buy from. As long as it's fit for the purpose and provides reasonable value for money it's the correct choice.
Do you want them to drive about in British owned Morgans?
cardigankid said:
Do the Police want to tackle real criminals? It puts them in danger and even if they do - and I'm sure quite a few would be up for it -
briefing update in police orders said:
“A police officer, who was injured while on duty in the force yesterday (14/05), is now recovering at home.
“At around 6.45pm the female officer, aged in her twenties, was on routine patrol with two colleagues when they were called to respond to an incident where a man had been seen throwing items at vehicles on the main road close to the A34 over-bridge at .....
“When the man noticed the officers and their marked vehicle he ran into a wooded area. They followed him and he threw a pitch fork in their direction, injuring the officer on her arm.
“The officers arrested the 36-year-old man at the scene and he remains in police custody today.
“Thankfully, incidents like this are rare, but this highlights the courage displayed by police officers across the country on a daily basis. I recognise the bravery and professionalism these three officers demonstrated yesterday and am thankful nobody was killed or more seriously hurt.”
The officer was taken to the ......Hospital where she received 14 stitches to two wounds in her arm. She was discharged from hospital in the early hours of this morning (15/2)
I think there is your answer!
Fittster said:
cardigankid said:
Next, why is it that police in the UK will drive Mercs and BMWs but NEVER a British car like a Jag which I would have thought was eminently qualified for the job. I really don't think that a Police Beemer is going to catch me in my XJR if it came down to it, which it won't of course. Furthermore the calm, alert and controlled state of mind created by driving this fantastic vehicle is such that you always spot the BiB miles ahead, tucked up slip roads or hiding in front of slow moving vans, purely as an academic exercise of course. Do the the French, the Italians or even the Germans, god bless em, carry on in this fashion? Not a chance.They ALL drive home produced vehicles. Who in the Force is responsible for buying cars? Do they realise the effect that this is undoubtedly having on employment in the UK? Or is expressing a view like this now itself illegal notwithstanding that it is being done flagrantly throughout mainland Europe?
Edited by cardigankid on Tuesday 15th May 18:09
Really don't understand this point, why does it matter which foreign owned car company the police forces buy from. As long as it's fit for the purpose and provides reasonable value for money it's the correct choice.
Do you want them to drive about in British owned Morgans?
I sympathise with cardigankids position here. Buying Jags means most of the money stays in Britain. Good for employment and the economy.
Way cool if the Plod got Morgans,Astons & Bristols etc though!
Dibble said:
s2art said:
Way cool if the Plod got Morgans,Astons & Bristols etc though!
Let's get rid of the wailers, and replace them with bells, too!
I'd vote for that! Imagine a Morgan Aero Police car accelerating up behind you with a bell ringing. That would get people to pull over sharpish.
s2art said:
Dibble said:
s2art said:
Way cool if the Plod got Morgans,Astons & Bristols etc though!
Let's get rid of the wailers, and replace them with bells, too!
I'd vote for that! Imagine a Morgan Aero Police car accelerating up behind you with a bell ringing. That would get people to pull over sharpish.
I reckon they should get TVR's
:-)
Sean
cardigankid said:
Next, why is it that police in the UK will drive Mercs and BMWs but NEVER a British car like a Jag.
Same reason as the public don't I guess. I imagine a few people would get the right arse if old bill were tootling around in XJRs.
Ford, Vauxhall, Honda are used which are built in the UK (I think) and I am sure there are others.
Not half as arsed as they get watching them swanning about in new 5-Series BMW's. You see, the average member of the public like myself gets the impression that these cars are being bought to gratify the desires of the traffic police rather than for any objective reason. I repeat, it doesn't happen in any other major european country, and I also repeat, does anyone know who makes these decisions.
It doesn't matter a toss who owns the manufacturer, you will recall I referred to the effect on UK employment. To suggest that a Merc or a BMW is more fit for the traffic police purpose than an equivalent UK built car is just insulting our intelligence.
I don't regard a Morgan as a performance vehicle. The German police however used to troll about in 911's, now they find Mercedes suitable for most purposes.
Finally, I don't deny that the police find themselves in dangerous positions. A cursory look at the newspapers will demonstrate that, and there has only recently been another police fatality. However, the question was are they being discouraged from tackling serious crime for the reasons stated and are they instead making up the numbers with trivia? The cucumber incident was true, not made up. What is the Chief Constable in that area thinking about?
It doesn't matter a toss who owns the manufacturer, you will recall I referred to the effect on UK employment. To suggest that a Merc or a BMW is more fit for the traffic police purpose than an equivalent UK built car is just insulting our intelligence.
I don't regard a Morgan as a performance vehicle. The German police however used to troll about in 911's, now they find Mercedes suitable for most purposes.
Finally, I don't deny that the police find themselves in dangerous positions. A cursory look at the newspapers will demonstrate that, and there has only recently been another police fatality. However, the question was are they being discouraged from tackling serious crime for the reasons stated and are they instead making up the numbers with trivia? The cucumber incident was true, not made up. What is the Chief Constable in that area thinking about?
Edited by cardigankid on Tuesday 15th May 23:31
Edited by cardigankid on Tuesday 15th May 23:36
The cars that the Police use (in fact ALL the vehicles) have to be approved by PSDB (Police Scientific Development Branch, or whatever it's called this week).
The Police don't pay showrrom prices for the vehicles, which are usually "police spec", ie traffic cars will have the biggest engine and uprated brakes, suspension and electrics, but lower than usual base level trim.
The manufacturers like the Police to use their vehicles, as (a) it's good free adevrtising, and (b) the cars get stress tested like they wouldn't normally, as most are on the road 24/7 (it's not unusual for a car that doesn't need an MOT to be getting to near the 150,000 mile mark).
The BiB that drive them have NO SAY in what they get to drive; all the cars are chosen by (usually civilian) bean counters/fleet managers, but they MUST come from the "approved" list.
I've test driven a few cars loaned by the likes of Ford, BMW and Vauxhall, and we have to fill in an evaluation on each one, covering how well the vehicle perfoms in an operational role - that's not just how quick it goes/stops, but things like how easy it is to get in/out with boday armour, how easy is it to get the cones out of the boot, etc etc.
The Police don't pay showrrom prices for the vehicles, which are usually "police spec", ie traffic cars will have the biggest engine and uprated brakes, suspension and electrics, but lower than usual base level trim.
The manufacturers like the Police to use their vehicles, as (a) it's good free adevrtising, and (b) the cars get stress tested like they wouldn't normally, as most are on the road 24/7 (it's not unusual for a car that doesn't need an MOT to be getting to near the 150,000 mile mark).
The BiB that drive them have NO SAY in what they get to drive; all the cars are chosen by (usually civilian) bean counters/fleet managers, but they MUST come from the "approved" list.
I've test driven a few cars loaned by the likes of Ford, BMW and Vauxhall, and we have to fill in an evaluation on each one, covering how well the vehicle perfoms in an operational role - that's not just how quick it goes/stops, but things like how easy it is to get in/out with boday armour, how easy is it to get the cones out of the boot, etc etc.
cardigankid said:
It doesn't matter a jack who owns the manufacturer, you will recall I referred to the effect on UK employment. To suggest that a Merc or a BMW is more fit for the traffic police purpose than an equivalent UK built car is just insulting our intelligence.
What 5 door/estate car with a good lump of power, comfortable cruising ability and longevity thats built in GB would you suggest?
If you needed a fast, comfortable, safe and sizeable vehicle to spend hours on end trudging up and down the motorway indispersed with periods of high speed and all the associated handling and braking performance needed, what would you buy?
ipsg.glf said:
Residual values will also be a factor when deciding what operational vehicle to buy.
and that I think gives an idea of what the problem is. They police are run (like most everything these days) by bean counters and KPI's. They know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
cardigankid said:
Not half as arsed as they get watching them swanning about in new 5-Series BMW's. You see, the average member of the public like myself gets the impression that these cars are being bought to gratify the desires of the traffic police rather than for any objective reason. I repeat, it doesn't happen in any other major european country, and I also repeat, does anyone know who makes these decisions.
Thanks to unlimited Autobahnen German manufacturers have an inbuilt advantage when it comes to building cars that will live for extended periods at high speeds.
Pretty much everyone except the French, Italians and Swedes equip their TrafPlod with German kit because it's very, very good...
Dibble said:
The manufacturers like the Police to use their vehicles, as (a) it's good free adevrtising, and (b) the cars get stress tested like they wouldn't normally, as most are on the road 24/7 (it's not unusual for a car that doesn't need an MOT to be getting to near the 150,000 mile mark).
My Mum bought an exPolice Avenger 1600 at auction the day before its first MoT was due with a little over 115,000 on the clock for £500.
It was scruffy and subDL Spartan - rubber mats, vinyl seats, no options - but mechanically perfect and gave her then me almost 6 years and 70,000 miles of sterling service before I sold it for £275 having replaced nothing but consumables and the alternator in all that time...
Bumped into its new owner ~18 months later and it was still going strong!
Mock not the white E430 with MBtex upholstery!
Dibble said:
dougc said:
If you needed a fast, comfortable, safe and sizeable vehicle to spend hours on end trudging up and down the motorway indispersed with periods of high speed and all the associated handling and braking performance needed, what would you buy?
That'd be a Volvo, then...
...or a Merc, or a Beemer.
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