Budgeting for Repairs
Discussion
I'm in an SE, but I don't believe there is any price diff to the S4 and S4s.
Barring catastrophy, I'd say that 1500 to 2000 US per year is pretty reasonable if you have someone else do the work. That's a for a well sorted car, mind you.
Budget high though...that way if nothing goes wrong and you get a cheap bill this year, you have cash on hand for upgrades and goodies
Mike
Barring catastrophy, I'd say that 1500 to 2000 US per year is pretty reasonable if you have someone else do the work. That's a for a well sorted car, mind you.
Budget high though...that way if nothing goes wrong and you get a cheap bill this year, you have cash on hand for upgrades and goodies
Mike
Solar,
Do not be put off by the repairs. Many are led down the path to do things by statements like "as long as we have it apart we might as well do this or replace this part also". While it may make sense it certain circumstances to do this sort of thing. Other times it does not and it is a plain waste of money. Some people have more money than common sense or do not know any better, I for one would like to see more people say to the mechanic let me see the worn part, know the percentage difference of wear if it is near the failure rate to warrant a repair or say to a mechanic no I think we will wait off on repairs to that one.
Many just trust service people as they will say "My car is in top shape because I did what my service person who is the best told me to do". I know of many who replace and repair an Esprit when a part fails or when it is needed, who spends much less than many and their car is in just as good of shape or better as one who justs throws money at it.
Sanj, Mark Wiens, Keen, and others are very good at this sort of thing. It if makes the person feel better to chase ghosts or to throw money at car that's fine too. But reading many posts about doing work on cars that pump up the price, replace parts with less than 50% wear doesn't make sense to me except for certain circumstances.
Those people who take the time to learn the car have a lots of money left over to do other things and upgrades that are more fun and mods that make the car better.
I for one would much rather buy car from someone who knows the car from top to bottom, took care of the problem areas, and did what was needed than one who has a fist full repair bills and no explanation why that work was done.
Calvin 90 SE
>> Edited by cnh1990 on Thursday 15th May 02:02
Do not be put off by the repairs. Many are led down the path to do things by statements like "as long as we have it apart we might as well do this or replace this part also". While it may make sense it certain circumstances to do this sort of thing. Other times it does not and it is a plain waste of money. Some people have more money than common sense or do not know any better, I for one would like to see more people say to the mechanic let me see the worn part, know the percentage difference of wear if it is near the failure rate to warrant a repair or say to a mechanic no I think we will wait off on repairs to that one.
Many just trust service people as they will say "My car is in top shape because I did what my service person who is the best told me to do". I know of many who replace and repair an Esprit when a part fails or when it is needed, who spends much less than many and their car is in just as good of shape or better as one who justs throws money at it.
Sanj, Mark Wiens, Keen, and others are very good at this sort of thing. It if makes the person feel better to chase ghosts or to throw money at car that's fine too. But reading many posts about doing work on cars that pump up the price, replace parts with less than 50% wear doesn't make sense to me except for certain circumstances.
Those people who take the time to learn the car have a lots of money left over to do other things and upgrades that are more fun and mods that make the car better.
I for one would much rather buy car from someone who knows the car from top to bottom, took care of the problem areas, and did what was needed than one who has a fist full repair bills and no explanation why that work was done.
Calvin 90 SE
>> Edited by cnh1990 on Thursday 15th May 02:02
im not really worried about 10k/year repairs. My car was gone through by a factory dealer, and will get the run through by my local factory dealer this we the s4s runs very well. idles perfect, clutch is strong, and everything electric but the stereo works great.. A few loose screws that I tightened on the mirror and sunroof clamps.
I wrench my seadoo's and they are about the hardest motorvehicles to keep running there is. Try running your esprit in the ocean and jump 10 foot waves with crushing landings and lots of saltwater in the engine compartment! You would quickly have a new found respect for keeping your machine reliable.
So hopefully my experience with keeping and maintaining watercraft will pay off. I already used some bombardier marine/aerospace lube to grease my pedals. All the squeeks are gone!!!
I wrench my seadoo's and they are about the hardest motorvehicles to keep running there is. Try running your esprit in the ocean and jump 10 foot waves with crushing landings and lots of saltwater in the engine compartment! You would quickly have a new found respect for keeping your machine reliable.
So hopefully my experience with keeping and maintaining watercraft will pay off. I already used some bombardier marine/aerospace lube to grease my pedals. All the squeeks are gone!!!
as you all know I am no expert, but I gotta ask this; how in the world do you spend 10-12k a year in repairs? I mean what the hell is going on and could you forward the receipts so that I could see for my own eyes? I have Lamborghinis here that do not require that much maintenance.
I guess what I am asking is at that rate, when do you pull the plug and go buy a V8 or something of the like? I know to a point you have a love affair with your car but that just kinda seems excessive for just about any car. Did the PO do any kind of maintenance to the car at all? Are you paying the price for his negligence? I guess I am just still trying to get a good grip on what is reasonable and also so that I can set my customers up for what to expect when I sell a pre-owned car. I have looked at the thread that Mike sent to me and I never got that close in adding up what I would expect someone would pay for maintenance on a car. I will say this though, Andecorp pays about half of that a year in insurance from what I read on another thread so lets hope his repair bill is far from what yours is.
I guess what I am asking is at that rate, when do you pull the plug and go buy a V8 or something of the like? I know to a point you have a love affair with your car but that just kinda seems excessive for just about any car. Did the PO do any kind of maintenance to the car at all? Are you paying the price for his negligence? I guess I am just still trying to get a good grip on what is reasonable and also so that I can set my customers up for what to expect when I sell a pre-owned car. I have looked at the thread that Mike sent to me and I never got that close in adding up what I would expect someone would pay for maintenance on a car. I will say this though, Andecorp pays about half of that a year in insurance from what I read on another thread so lets hope his repair bill is far from what yours is.
10-12K/year is not normal. Even 5K is not normal. Many times a person is paying for what I call exploratory mechanics. They are not quite sure what is wrong and just spend time going over a car or repairing a symptom than the problem. Or replace other things as long as they were in there is common.
I have seen people rebuild entire power trains for that or do an off frame restorations for less.
What a person should expect from a 4cyl. is 1500-2000 per 10-15K miles. The high side for older cars and less for later models except the S4s which many parts cost a lot more. Ferrari's are almost double that. Many people including people from Fox Valley agree with this estimate.
Calvin
I have seen people rebuild entire power trains for that or do an off frame restorations for less.
What a person should expect from a 4cyl. is 1500-2000 per 10-15K miles. The high side for older cars and less for later models except the S4s which many parts cost a lot more. Ferrari's are almost double that. Many people including people from Fox Valley agree with this estimate.
Calvin
I think most would agree that 10-12K/year is unusual, problem is, it appears to frequent enough to cause some concern.
Many owners take the "preventive maintenance" approach, where additional parts are replaced while the car is in pieces as it's cheaper to do it now than wait till it wears out or breaks later.
Other cars seem victim of "garage queen syndrome" where the seals and other rubber bits rot from lack of use and engine wear is accelerated due to lack of running which allows most of the oil film to run off leaving engine parts unprotected until oil pressure is built up again. This along with trapped moisture causing rust and fluids going bad (corrosion) can create some expensive repairs.
However, there are other cases where defective components are sourced and/or physical assembly just wasn't carried out properly. My failures on a new 2000MY are due to poor component quality (2 fans, radiator, gearbox, A/C Compressor and 3 exhaust systems and other assorted bits) and some assembly problems (water pump almost falling out, right rear suspension alignment spacers all falling out) as certain key bolts were not properly torqued during manufacturing.
Now, once these things get sorted out, I tend to agree that typical maintenance costs should be significantly less. I'll have a much better idea in the next year as my warranty ends in the fall. I am hoping that I get all of the bits and pieces sorted in the next 4 months however.
The one thing I will say however... when the Lotus is running right, there are few cars that will bring the smile on the face quicker. The pleasure we get from driving them is what drives us to keep them drivable.
Regards, KM
2000 V8 (running exceptionally well sans A/C currently)
Many owners take the "preventive maintenance" approach, where additional parts are replaced while the car is in pieces as it's cheaper to do it now than wait till it wears out or breaks later.
Other cars seem victim of "garage queen syndrome" where the seals and other rubber bits rot from lack of use and engine wear is accelerated due to lack of running which allows most of the oil film to run off leaving engine parts unprotected until oil pressure is built up again. This along with trapped moisture causing rust and fluids going bad (corrosion) can create some expensive repairs.
However, there are other cases where defective components are sourced and/or physical assembly just wasn't carried out properly. My failures on a new 2000MY are due to poor component quality (2 fans, radiator, gearbox, A/C Compressor and 3 exhaust systems and other assorted bits) and some assembly problems (water pump almost falling out, right rear suspension alignment spacers all falling out) as certain key bolts were not properly torqued during manufacturing.
Now, once these things get sorted out, I tend to agree that typical maintenance costs should be significantly less. I'll have a much better idea in the next year as my warranty ends in the fall. I am hoping that I get all of the bits and pieces sorted in the next 4 months however.
The one thing I will say however... when the Lotus is running right, there are few cars that will bring the smile on the face quicker. The pleasure we get from driving them is what drives us to keep them drivable.
Regards, KM
2000 V8 (running exceptionally well sans A/C currently)
My GT3 costs about £3k a year to run. I bought it from almost new ( 4700 miles ) to 65500 miles now in 5 five years.
All the costs are on my site, www.adrianmugridge.co.uk
Also, regards costs for an S4 or S4s. One example is a clutch replacement. An S4 ( or SE/GT3 ) is about £750 but an S4s is £2000.
Adrian
www.adrianmugridge.co.uk
All the costs are on my site, www.adrianmugridge.co.uk
Also, regards costs for an S4 or S4s. One example is a clutch replacement. An S4 ( or SE/GT3 ) is about £750 but an S4s is £2000.
Adrian
www.adrianmugridge.co.uk
chrislotusatl said: as you all know I am no expert, but I gotta ask this; how in the world do you spend 10-12k a year in repairs? I mean what the hell is going on and could you forward the receipts so that I could see for my own eyes? I have Lamborghinis here that do not require that much maintenance.
I guess what I am asking is at that rate, when do you pull the plug and go buy a V8 or something of the like? I know to a point you have a love affair with your car but that just kinda seems excessive for just about any car. Did the PO do any kind of maintenance to the car at all? Are you paying the price for his negligence? I guess I am just still trying to get a good grip on what is reasonable and also so that I can set my customers up for what to expect when I sell a pre-owned car. I have looked at the thread that Mike sent to me and I never got that close in adding up what I would expect someone would pay for maintenance on a car. I will say this though, Andecorp pays about half of that a year in insurance from what I read on another thread so lets hope his repair bill is far from what yours is.
The thing is Chris, you'll be seeing this sort of thing (10K bills) more and more often. Reason being, there are no new Esprits out there. Discontinued. That means that all the Esprits in the world are all that we have till the end of time. So that scrap-heap Esprit doubling as a flowerpot in some dudes backyard will shortly become a candidate for rebuilding. That's an extreme, but the 4 pots on the road now, as they start having big problems occur, the option to just declare a point of diminishing returns and get into a V8 will begin to disappear.
And when Lotus stops making the parts for these cars and sells the tooling to another company...sure parts will still be made, but don't expect prices to come down.
Point is, finding good examples of these cars is going to get harder and harder to do. The really nice ones will be clung to or sold fast (usually to people the owner knows) leaving first time Esprit buyers to jump into the PO neglected cars...and that can mean 10K bills to get them right again.
BTW, it's because of this that I think the values will eventually rise on these cars again. I'm not saying it's an investment car (oh hell no) but I think the Esprit is undervalued right now, and the market will correct itself.
Mike
Chris,
Customers will ask how much an Esprit costs to run.
Give them both senarios. While some have spent a lot on their Esprit's. They got into a trap where they got in too deep, spent too much, and the hope of just a little more will give them a great running car is always on the horizon. A lot of us have egos and will not let something beat us.
I much prefer to go into something without being blindsided by unexpected repairs. KFM/factfile and others have helped me when I was making a purchase. Many of us in turn have helped out by doing pre purchase evaluation or helping a person seek out another in the area to take a peek at car. The 4 cyl cars are very reliable and easy to work on especially the cars made during the GM years. Out of the SE's the mid89-mid90 pre ABS are an Esprit many seek. S4s are also a hot item.
Some have treated the car like a regular car and some owners did not care for them as they should have or unable to afford it. Many have followed their dream of an Esprit by financing it, only to be hit with repair bills they could not afford and skimped on repairs, out of the cars I have seen the ones that carried a clear title without a lien had a much better chance of being maintained up to par with less problems. I can only imagine what resources it must take to make a loan payment and come up with repair money. 4-6 hundred for something like a DIY clutch job added to monthly payment would be harsh.
Also Andecorp is from Austrailia his prices for insurance is in his currency, much less in USD.
Labor rates for the Esprit is high, contact the local club for help, work on your own car, it's part of the hobby, This past week end many club members showed up to work on a restoration S1 project. There were so many people wrenching on the car that I was unable to get my hands on it. To fire up a flawless car and see it back on the road after 13 years was indeed a sight.
I do think the car is over restored, I have never seen an S1 look like that before. I finally got to take a turn at driving a S1. Something I had wanted to do for many years since seeing it in a magazine in 76. Now I have driven every stock Esprit model except for the rare ones (sp300/sp350/race cars). I am a happy person. (I'm sure Dave the owner of the S1 is a lot happier person than me). I will not win many car show with car around.
Calvin
Customers will ask how much an Esprit costs to run.
Give them both senarios. While some have spent a lot on their Esprit's. They got into a trap where they got in too deep, spent too much, and the hope of just a little more will give them a great running car is always on the horizon. A lot of us have egos and will not let something beat us.
I much prefer to go into something without being blindsided by unexpected repairs. KFM/factfile and others have helped me when I was making a purchase. Many of us in turn have helped out by doing pre purchase evaluation or helping a person seek out another in the area to take a peek at car. The 4 cyl cars are very reliable and easy to work on especially the cars made during the GM years. Out of the SE's the mid89-mid90 pre ABS are an Esprit many seek. S4s are also a hot item.
Some have treated the car like a regular car and some owners did not care for them as they should have or unable to afford it. Many have followed their dream of an Esprit by financing it, only to be hit with repair bills they could not afford and skimped on repairs, out of the cars I have seen the ones that carried a clear title without a lien had a much better chance of being maintained up to par with less problems. I can only imagine what resources it must take to make a loan payment and come up with repair money. 4-6 hundred for something like a DIY clutch job added to monthly payment would be harsh.
Also Andecorp is from Austrailia his prices for insurance is in his currency, much less in USD.
Labor rates for the Esprit is high, contact the local club for help, work on your own car, it's part of the hobby, This past week end many club members showed up to work on a restoration S1 project. There were so many people wrenching on the car that I was unable to get my hands on it. To fire up a flawless car and see it back on the road after 13 years was indeed a sight.
I do think the car is over restored, I have never seen an S1 look like that before. I finally got to take a turn at driving a S1. Something I had wanted to do for many years since seeing it in a magazine in 76. Now I have driven every stock Esprit model except for the rare ones (sp300/sp350/race cars). I am a happy person. (I'm sure Dave the owner of the S1 is a lot happier person than me). I will not win many car show with car around.
Calvin
well that all gives me a good idea of what to tell people to expect. It seems that there is such a broad range of yearly expenses, with most of the expense happening in the first year of ownership. I guess once you get all of the previous problems sorted out the car will take more than good care of you. Most of the stuff that seems to happen to these cars is plastic bits breaking, not as much major stuff but then you find people replacing the big hit items and you wonder what is around the corner.
I ran into a guy last night when I was out to dinner who had a 95 S4 in the parking lot and he had just snapped his timing belt and redone the whole top end of the motor. He did have a guy he knows who does race engines do it with some sort of specially milled valves and springs and some other performance things and he said it really screams now. I felt bad at first and then I thought, man I bet he is really enjoying it now!!!
I ran into a guy last night when I was out to dinner who had a 95 S4 in the parking lot and he had just snapped his timing belt and redone the whole top end of the motor. He did have a guy he knows who does race engines do it with some sort of specially milled valves and springs and some other performance things and he said it really screams now. I felt bad at first and then I thought, man I bet he is really enjoying it now!!!
chrislotusatl said: well that all gives me a good idea of what to tell people to expect. It seems that there is such a broad range of yearly expenses, with most of the expense happening in the first year of ownership. I guess once you get all of the previous problems sorted out the car will take more than good care of you. Most of the stuff that seems to happen to these cars is plastic bits breaking, not as much major stuff but then you find people replacing the big hit items and you wonder what is around the corner.
I ran into a guy last night when I was out to dinner who had a 95 S4 in the parking lot and he had just snapped his timing belt and redone the whole top end of the motor. He did have a guy he knows who does race engines do it with some sort of specially milled valves and springs and some other performance things and he said it really screams now. I felt bad at first and then I thought, man I bet he is really enjoying it now!!!
This is very common. When folks blow something up, they usually fix it and enhance it at the same time. You don't find too many anymore who dump a lot of cash into an Esprit and then sell it. Once they bring it up to snuff, there's just that much more pride in it, and they keep them.
Those who don't bad mouth the marquee. A good portion of them didn't take good care of it in the first place too...
And Clavin, repair bills on top of finance bills does indeed suck. Thank god for income tax returns is all I can say
You don't want to know what my monthly Esprit payment is once you factor in insurance... Mike
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