Driving courses

[Buelligan 984]

Hi guys,

I know this sort of topic has been done to death, but bear with me.

My experience:

20 + years on two wheels. Ride very day. Numerous track days. Ground holes in several pairs of boots. Not a nutter, just a serious motorcyclist. ("Advanced rider - class 1" qualified.)

Driven cars for 20 + years, but never got very excited over 4 wheels. Recent experience is 2 years in an Audi 80, then 4 years in a Toyota Carina auto, then a Saab 900 turbo (note the large, wollowy, FRD auto theme?).

Suddenly got an Elise S2 - far more car than I can push to the limits.

I'm looking for a training course that can take me from an "average commuter" to the point where I can at least begin to understand where the limits of the car are. I might not want to push the car's limits (can't afford the consequences if it goes wrong!- both financial and medical) but would like to understand where the limits begin to become a factor.

Any suggestions for training sessions in Hampshire / Surrey / London etc area that doesn't assume any real understanding of 4 wheel performance as a starting point?

Cheers,

Dave

[rsv gone!]

Sounds like a job for Don Palmer

[theron]

www.carlimits.com

[Vaux]

I've done the Andy Walsh day (carlimits)- cheaper than Don Palmer and good fun.

But I've done a Don Palmer day and that was good fun too.

Both are educational but tyre wear is an issue!

If you've got the dosh, do Andy and Don!

[Buelligan 984]

Cheers for the replies guys.

I'd already checked out the "car limits" site - it looks good, but gives the impression that they expect you to be able to drive before you start. 20 + years NCB says I am safe enough, but can I really drive a car?

I'm not familiar wih Don Palmer -info please.

If we assume costs are not a major issue, how does one progress from "commuter" to "capable" in small, slow steps whilst avoidng A&E on the way?

Thanks,

Dave

[jamesallport]

If cost really isn't an issue then one progresses by driving with all the best professional coaches one thinks one might get on with, picking one or several who "click" with your approach, and interspersing a fair bit of training with the coach(es) with plenty of practice. When choosing a coach, remember that you're paying them to improve your driving, so it may or may not help that they drive sublimely themselves. Don't be seduced by a fantastic demonstration drive if the teaching style doesn't "click" with you. Unless you're a truly superb driver already, all of the people listed below will appear to be so good that you wonder how they make it look so b****y easy.

Don Palmer's web site is a good place to start: www.donpalmer.co.uk

I'd also suggest thinking about:

Hugh Noblett or Dave Turner at Cadence Driver Development: www.cadence.co.uk

Bernard Aubry: www.bernardaubry.com

I've driven a fair bit with Hugh and Dave, never with Bernard Aubry but he comes highly recommended.

John Lyon (with whom I also took a fair bit of training at one stage) has a different style, which people tend either to love or hate: www.john-lyon.co.uk

Many PHers will recommend RideDrive (www.ridedrive.co.uk). I wouldn't recommend them, but your mileage may vary.

Hope that's a start. There are other people who only do track coaching, but since I'm almost wholly biased towards road driving, I haven't really any experience of them.

[SVS]

Hello,

I second virtually everything James suggests, but add a few comments from personal experience:
- IMO, Cadence Driver Development would be the best choice
- RideDrive can be absolutely great, provided you get the right instructor. If it's one of their regulars, as mine was, then you should have a great day out. (My instructor had a near-identical background to Hugh Noblett at Cadence.) If it's merely a stand-in instructor, then you may still have a great day out - with the odd exception like Jame's experience.
- I wouldn't recommend John Lyon, because he has an old fashioned "break you down, then build you up" style of instruction.
- Personally, I would strongly recommend a combined road and track day (as opposed to restricting yourself to merely a track-based day). More variety. Plus, IMO, there's no point learning on track without then learning how to apply it in reality on the road.

Have fun

[Vaux]

Buelligan 984 said:

I'd already checked out the "car limits" site - it looks good, but gives the impression that they expect you to be able to drive before you start.

Not really - Andy will show/tell you what to do. He has a DVD - "Bending the Rules" which covers all the techniques he'll talk about. Maybe look at this first. And he is very good with Elises, a lot of Lotus boys go there.

[mr_p]

Buelligan 984 said:

Cheers for the replies guys.

I'd already checked out the "car limits" site - it looks good, but gives the impression that they expect you to be able to drive before you start.

The first Walshy day I did I had no idea about the limits of my car - breaking, cornering or anything. I called and got on a day with some other first timers, was very good fun and taught me a lot.

[_Neal_]

To echo the above, I've never done any track/limit handling stuff before, and I found Andy Walsh to be really good - He drives (and I think races) an Elise S2 himself.

I was there with 3 other novices and it was a great learning experience and loads of fun. Top value as well.

Sure you'll enjoy whichever one you choose though!

[Buelligan 984]

Wow Guys,

Thanks for the replies - lots to think about there.

When I say costs is not an issue, after spending £17K on my Lotus, another £1- 2 k ish to learn how to drive it is better than putting £17K of car through a hedge. I'm not rich by any means but its worth learning to preserve what you have.

(Also, I bought the car after the neurosurgeon told me to give up bikes - I don't think he expected me to buy a Lotus instead. The medical consequences of geting it wrong don't bear thinking about).

jamesallsport - thanks for your very helpful suggestions. I think the comment sbout finding an instructor who you get on with is very valid. I used to be a bike training instructor and we regularly used to say to each other "this pupil and I just don't gell - see what you can do".

I'll start at the top of the list and work through them and let you all know how it goes,

Dave

[timdriver]

I've taken a few excellent courses with Mark Kendrick: www.bespokedrivertraining.co.uk

[bogie]

I came from the same background - rode bikes all my life, passed car test later at 28..then Elise at 32...first RWD car etc

I did about 5 days with Andy Walsh of Car Limits ...not to learn roadcraft etc..but to learn car control and how it behaves on the limit (and where they are) ..it was the best thing I ever did...then continued over the next 5 years doing a few Activity days (practice days on teh airfield) interspersed with on track instruction with various instructions

Id recommend Walshy as the best point to start from if you have an Elise...thats what he drives/races himself

the car control stuff is what you need to get to grips with in an Elise ...Id do a day in the summer and then try to get a wet winters day as well

cheers
bogie

[parkless]

Don Palmer.

He is THE limit handling guru. Unless of course you're going to be an F1 racing driver, in which case you probably want Rob Wilson.

If you DON'T want to spin, drive sideways, glide across the grass blushing, giggle a lot, knock seconds off your lap time and drive like a god by the end of one single day, go somewhere else! Cos it can't be that easy really. Can it?

[waremark]

Buelligan 984 said:

Wow Guys,
When I say costs is not an issue, after spending £17K on my Lotus, another £1- 2 k ish to learn how to drive it is better than putting £17K of car through a hedge. I'm not rich by any means but its worth learning to preserve what you have.

Wow - if only more people thought like that. So many people seem willing to spend a fortune on alloy wheels, but unwilling to spend a few quid to help the nut behind the wheel make the most of what the car has got.

You have already had some great recommendations.

Personally I would choose one of the coaches who is an expert in roadcraft as well as limit handling - in spite of your biking skills, a top coach can probably help you enjoy your car more on the road while keeping safe. Don Palmer in particular ticks all the boxes - a little more expensive than the other limit handling guru Andy Walsh, but with a strong reputation for roadcraft coaching as well as for limit handling. He may not race Elises but he is certainly good in them (I did a limit handling session with him at his main venue Bruntingthorpe in one). Rather than teaching you different techniques, he focuses on helping you to learn for yourself, then to understand and recognise what your car is doing.

If you feel that you are a little more road focused, or do not want to spend as much on new tyres, then Cadence offer top coaching at a slightly lower price. They also do limit handling work, but they do not major on this to the same extent as Don and Andy Walsh.

Others mentioned are also highly respected - Bernard Aubry is particularly pleasant as well as being a good coach but he is quite expensive, and Mark Kendrick who sells an excellent series of DVD's from which you can see what he is like lives a bit further north. John Lyon is a brilliant driver but as mentioned has a particularly individual teaching style - he tends to suit people who like to be told in a very specific way exactly what to do.

Again, it is great to hear of someone approaching sports car ownership in such a sensible way. Enjoy learning and enjoy your car.

[Rick448]

Another vote here for Don Palmer if it's limit handling you are after. Hugh is also highly recommended and i have been out with both. I was lucky enough to see Rob Wilson too on the day i did with Don, he was coaching Ayton Senna's nephew (i think) at the time in an Avensis!!! Wow you wouldn't believe what one of those can do!

[noumenon]

Walshy.