Can a Wortec remap be 'lost'?
Discussion
Can anyone help me here? 
My car is meant to have the wortec remap on it but it was rolling roaded today and produced 380hp at the flywheel, giving the impression that the car has reverted back to standard map. Is it possible that the map could have been lost due to ECU resetting etc?
If it has been lost is it simple enough to get it put back on, I have the paperwork to say it was done.
Any help greatly appreciated
Cheers
Andy
My car is meant to have the wortec remap on it but it was rolling roaded today and produced 380hp at the flywheel, giving the impression that the car has reverted back to standard map. Is it possible that the map could have been lost due to ECU resetting etc?
If it has been lost is it simple enough to get it put back on, I have the paperwork to say it was done.
Any help greatly appreciated
Cheers
Andy
If you are talking stock 5.7 tuned it sounds bang on the money. They were more like 340 or 350 stock.
What RWHP numbers was it?
Unless someone has flashed over it then it should be exactly the same as it was when done.
Im sure Paul will comment where necessary.
Woops, just read it was the 6L. It can depend on the dyno. But its worth getting it checked to see if its been overwritten etc.
What RWHP numbers was it?
Unless someone has flashed over it then it should be exactly the same as it was when done.
Im sure Paul will comment where necessary.
Woops, just read it was the 6L. It can depend on the dyno. But its worth getting it checked to see if its been overwritten etc.
Edited by ringram on Saturday 19th May 23:55
its the 6l VXR he has and he's quoting the flywheel which as we all know is about as much relevance as chocolate sauce - my own car read 335 at the wheels and only 375 at the flywheel according to Dastek using a rundown technique - either way one of those numbers is wrong as the losses are generally accepted to be around 50 for transmission and 30 for the wheels. I suspect this is another case of someone getting given a flywheel figure which doesn't match up with expectations due to the unreliable nature of calculating it.
Oberon, bring the graph with you tomorrow and we'll compare with the charts I've got to see how they compare. As for losing the map - well only if a dealer had reset it at a service and to do that he'd need the unlock code from Wortec wouldnt he?
Oberon, bring the graph with you tomorrow and we'll compare with the charts I've got to see how they compare. As for losing the map - well only if a dealer had reset it at a service and to do that he'd need the unlock code from Wortec wouldnt he?
oberon said:
it was rolling roaded today and produced 380hp at the flywheel
How can they say its 380hp at the flywheel when its only been on a chassis dyno?
Any figure is just a guesstimate unless the engine is removed and put on an engine dyno.
Been done to death before, but a dyno is just a tuning tool, not a pi$$ing contest.
Too many variables.
Before and after tuning RWHP figures are all that matters.
V-Car said:
oberon said:
it was rolling roaded today and produced 380hp at the flywheel
How can they say its 380hp at the flywheel when its only been on a chassis dyno?
Any figure is just a guesstimate unless the engine is removed and put on an engine dyno.
Been done to death before, but a dyno is just a tuning tool, not a pi$$ing contest.
Too many variables.
Before and after tuning RWHP figures are all that matters.
Definately, spot on.
Forget fwhp numbers they are irrelevant and misleading. May they never be posted here again.
just to throw some petrol on the fire I had a long interesting chat with one of the guys from Dastek at the event today and he explained that they believe their flywheel figures to have been proved consistently to be very accurate (within 1 or 2 %) when engines have been tested on a engine dyno due to the rundown method they employ to calculate the losses. As a dyno supplier they feel that they have sufficiently accurate data on the losses at the rollers that their rundown is capable of measuring the additional losses due to the transmission on the car and so give the flywheel figure accurate to such a small percentage.
Anyway to satisfy those amongst us that like at the wheel figures his "Wortec" tuned 6.0 VXR pushed out a whole 1hp more at the wheels than my 04 plate cv8 (mafless, Miltek exhaust, 80mm throttle body, LSV tune) giving him 336bhp at the wheels
Anyway to satisfy those amongst us that like at the wheel figures his "Wortec" tuned 6.0 VXR pushed out a whole 1hp more at the wheels than my 04 plate cv8 (mafless, Miltek exhaust, 80mm throttle body, LSV tune) giving him 336bhp at the wheels
336hp at the wheels is spot on for a cat back and map on a 6.0ltr car......see attached dyno sheet.
[url]www.wortec.co.uk/dynosheets/05vxr%20sport%20pac.pdf[/url]
Note we use a hub dyno so take off 30hp for tire losses....
[url]www.wortec.co.uk/dynosheets/05vxr%20sport%20pac.pdf[/url]
Note we use a hub dyno so take off 30hp for tire losses....
wortec1 said:
336hp at the wheels is spot on for a cat back and map on a 6.0ltr car......see attached dyno sheet.
[url]www.wortec.co.uk/dynosheets/05vxr%20sport%20pac.pdf[/url]
Note we use a hub dyno so take off 30hp for tire losses....
[url]www.wortec.co.uk/dynosheets/05vxr%20sport%20pac.pdf[/url]
Note we use a hub dyno so take off 30hp for tire losses....
Cool, that puts me well over the 500bhp mark then with my NA 5.7L setup!
wortec1 said:
336hp at the wheels is spot on for a cat back and map on a 6.0ltr car......see attached dyno sheet.
[url]www.wortec.co.uk/dynosheets/05vxr%20sport%20pac.pdf[/url]
Note we use a hub dyno so take off 30hp for tire losses....
[url]www.wortec.co.uk/dynosheets/05vxr%20sport%20pac.pdf[/url]
Note we use a hub dyno so take off 30hp for tire losses....
Thanks for the reply Mr Wortec
Hi Guys,
I've written it all here before, given some real life examples, yet everyone still believes RWHP to be the definitive number, I disagree & point you to this forum, where it has been argued out before & no one could come back & argue with the valid points I raised.
http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?s=928...
Cheers,
Gerry
I've written it all here before, given some real life examples, yet everyone still believes RWHP to be the definitive number, I disagree & point you to this forum, where it has been argued out before & no one could come back & argue with the valid points I raised.
http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?s=928...
Cheers,
Gerry
Hi Ringram,
I don't believe you can accurately compare rwhp figures anyway (if you read my war & peace you'll understand why) but in OZ, they mainly use Dyno Dynamics or Mainline (which both have the same roller diameter & give similar figures) & in the states the majority of dyno's are dynojet, which are large diameter single roll systems, which give much higher rwhp figures than the dd or mainline.
Cheers,
Gerry
I don't believe you can accurately compare rwhp figures anyway (if you read my war & peace you'll understand why) but in OZ, they mainly use Dyno Dynamics or Mainline (which both have the same roller diameter & give similar figures) & in the states the majority of dyno's are dynojet, which are large diameter single roll systems, which give much higher rwhp figures than the dd or mainline.
Cheers,
Gerry
Gerry, could you please enlighten us then as to how you come up with an accurate FWHP figure with the engine still in the car?
Whats all this attraction with FWHP figures anyway?
Unless its measured on an engine dyno, its irrelevant anyway?
You talk about all these variables in loss etc. but the end result is what its really all about isnt it?
The actual point when the rubber hits the road is the end result, and like most people accept, a dyno is a tuning tool, end of story. Notice i said dyno...not that quaint British term 'rolling road'? hehe
Want an accurate figure? Take it to the drag strip.
That sorts the men out from the boys.
If the tuner has done his work properly on the 'dyno' then it will show in the real world when the car is actually driven.
But then again, as someone said in that mitsu forum
....says it all really.
Whats all this attraction with FWHP figures anyway?
Unless its measured on an engine dyno, its irrelevant anyway?
You talk about all these variables in loss etc. but the end result is what its really all about isnt it?
The actual point when the rubber hits the road is the end result, and like most people accept, a dyno is a tuning tool, end of story. Notice i said dyno...not that quaint British term 'rolling road'? hehe
Want an accurate figure? Take it to the drag strip.
That sorts the men out from the boys.
If the tuner has done his work properly on the 'dyno' then it will show in the real world when the car is actually driven.
But then again, as someone said in that mitsu forum
BlackKnight said:
Flywheel figs are much better down the pub
....says it all really.
Hi V-Car,
The explanation of how we measure flywheel power is all in the post I linked to.
The problem is that the wheel power as measured on a chassis dyno (rolling road) is not the same as the power applied at the tyre to tarmac.
The whole idea of flywheel horsepower as measured by a chassis dyno is to give you an idea of how well the engine is performing, the whole idea of it being a tool. Imagine this, you are competing in a very closely contested racing series, you are looking for every last horsepower that can be rung out of the motor, you put it on a dyno that measures wheel power only & you start adjusting the cam timing, you see the power slowly creeping up, run after run, you finish the day some £300 lighter for your time, & 7 wheel horsepower up - yipee. However it turns out that you are no faster on the circuit, why? - because all the increase was linked to the transmission oil becoming hotter with the more runs that were done & the oil thinned & caused more power to transmitted to the roller, despite the engine output remaining the same or getting worse.
I'm not saying wheel power is irrelevant, but one must understand how it is derived, what effects the chassis dyno readings, & then if a coastdown technique is applied it gives you a greater picture of the true performance of the vehicle.
Your statement about the strip bears some truth, but there can be a lot of discrepancies there also, such as wind speed & direction, tarmac temp, driver skill etc. also to aid my point about wheel power + coastdown, at the drag strip[, if someone said they do a 1/4 in 16secs, you wouldn't be that impressed, until he told you that his reaction time is 6secs & the terminal is 150mph.
If you want to remain blinkered to only some of the data, then please continue to believe that rwhp is the be all & end all, if your open to other thoughts, then please don't take my word for it, go & test some stuff, here's a list to try:
1) do a couple of runs to get a base figure.
2) hold the car at different engine speeds & throttle openings to simulate live mapping, now do a run, how do they compare with 1?
3) Adjust the strapping on the car, so that it is pulled tighter on to the rollers, do some runs
4) Change the wheel alignment, do some runs
5) Change the tyre pressures by 10psi, what's the effect?
6) Run it in 3rd gear, then 4th, then 5th, what happens the the wheel power
7) A bit extreme, but do some runs in 3rd, change the final drive to a different ratio, what does it do to the power?
The list could go on & on, but until you try the stuff, your either going to believe that wheel power is the only figure or your not, but the only truly informed judgement you'll make is when you have actually done this & see it for your own eyes, I believe I have published evidence on my post's live from our own dyno the effects on wheel power with the most subtle of changes, but then of course I am a dyno manufacturer, so of my views could be seen as biased, however go & do the tests & make your own mind up if I'm bullsh*tting or not.
Cheers,
Gerry
The explanation of how we measure flywheel power is all in the post I linked to.
The problem is that the wheel power as measured on a chassis dyno (rolling road) is not the same as the power applied at the tyre to tarmac.
The whole idea of flywheel horsepower as measured by a chassis dyno is to give you an idea of how well the engine is performing, the whole idea of it being a tool. Imagine this, you are competing in a very closely contested racing series, you are looking for every last horsepower that can be rung out of the motor, you put it on a dyno that measures wheel power only & you start adjusting the cam timing, you see the power slowly creeping up, run after run, you finish the day some £300 lighter for your time, & 7 wheel horsepower up - yipee. However it turns out that you are no faster on the circuit, why? - because all the increase was linked to the transmission oil becoming hotter with the more runs that were done & the oil thinned & caused more power to transmitted to the roller, despite the engine output remaining the same or getting worse.
I'm not saying wheel power is irrelevant, but one must understand how it is derived, what effects the chassis dyno readings, & then if a coastdown technique is applied it gives you a greater picture of the true performance of the vehicle.
Your statement about the strip bears some truth, but there can be a lot of discrepancies there also, such as wind speed & direction, tarmac temp, driver skill etc. also to aid my point about wheel power + coastdown, at the drag strip[, if someone said they do a 1/4 in 16secs, you wouldn't be that impressed, until he told you that his reaction time is 6secs & the terminal is 150mph.
If you want to remain blinkered to only some of the data, then please continue to believe that rwhp is the be all & end all, if your open to other thoughts, then please don't take my word for it, go & test some stuff, here's a list to try:
1) do a couple of runs to get a base figure.
2) hold the car at different engine speeds & throttle openings to simulate live mapping, now do a run, how do they compare with 1?
3) Adjust the strapping on the car, so that it is pulled tighter on to the rollers, do some runs
4) Change the wheel alignment, do some runs
5) Change the tyre pressures by 10psi, what's the effect?
6) Run it in 3rd gear, then 4th, then 5th, what happens the the wheel power
7) A bit extreme, but do some runs in 3rd, change the final drive to a different ratio, what does it do to the power?
The list could go on & on, but until you try the stuff, your either going to believe that wheel power is the only figure or your not, but the only truly informed judgement you'll make is when you have actually done this & see it for your own eyes, I believe I have published evidence on my post's live from our own dyno the effects on wheel power with the most subtle of changes, but then of course I am a dyno manufacturer, so of my views could be seen as biased, however go & do the tests & make your own mind up if I'm bullsh*tting or not.
Cheers,
Gerry
Edited by Gerry Gaffney on Friday 25th May 08:57
Gerry
I think you`re missing the point
Its cheap and quick to do.
We drive in, tie the car down and end up with a figure.
We don`t want to race with that figure, but we may want to improve on it with a mod of some sort at a later date. We can compare the figure with other owners using the same method, not accurate I accept, but still worthwhile.
If you are saying ` No, its all useless do it properly just like the professional racers, tuners etc do` then why sould we bother, its not that important, lets save our money.
Which can`t be a good thing for your buisness.
(
I think you`re missing the point
Its cheap and quick to do.
We drive in, tie the car down and end up with a figure.
We don`t want to race with that figure, but we may want to improve on it with a mod of some sort at a later date. We can compare the figure with other owners using the same method, not accurate I accept, but still worthwhile.
If you are saying ` No, its all useless do it properly just like the professional racers, tuners etc do` then why sould we bother, its not that important, lets save our money.
Which can`t be a good thing for your buisness.
(
Edited by crisisjez on Friday 25th May 10:22
Edited by crisisjez on Friday 25th May 10:34
Gassing Station | HSV & Monaro | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff