3 points - Dangerous driving - Apparently parking on zigzags
Discussion
Hi,
I'm hoping someone will be able to help me here or give me some good contacts (preferably free)
Here is what happened last Saturday night 19-05-07.
Drove into Nottingham town centre to pick my Girlfriend up from town (She hadn’t been drinking as she’s pregnant (might be useful for witness) anyway as I drove upto a roundabout a police car had a taxi pulled over and his lights on, as I came upto the police car he turned his lights on and started to pull out and pulled in behind me. I carried on driving down the road towards where I was planning on picking my girlfriend up (a car joined in between me and police car) as I went down the road I wanted to spin round to pull into bus stop but thought it would be suspicious as may look like im trying to loose them (being young and all and a Saturday night in town) so I carried on and decided I was going to go the very long way round to make my way up the opposite side of the road to pull into a bus stop (one of them ones that indents to the pavement allot) but as I went over a pelican crossing a taxi was pulled over about 15metres down the road (upper parliament street) so I pulled in behind him as the lights turned ot red and my girlfriend ran across the road and said bye to her mate and got it. By this time the Taxi had gone (about 10seconds) there was a white van behind a car behind me and then the police car behind the van. I drove off and went around a few corners making my way outbound of the city centre and then the police car was behind me again and had been for a fair way and just as I came around the corner that was for the road home they put their lights on and flashed me and indicated, so I pulled over and they asked me to come into the police car. I then sat down and they asked me if I know what I had done wrong, to which I gave the obvious answer of no, as I hadn’t a clue.
The police officer then went on to say that I had pulled over on ZIGZAG lines and that he’s going to issue a fixed penalty of 3 points and £60 (To my supprize as I didn’t know that it was THIS MUCH) also I didn’t even know that I was on the ZIGZAG lines in the first place, not wanting to cause a big argument of yes you was, no I wasn’t (and get them mad). He said he will issue the ticket and if I choose not to take the points then to scribble out the ticket (WHICH IS INCORECT!). When I asked the police officer why the taxi wasn’t in the wrong he said well he wasn’t on the ZIGZAG lines.. This is when it hit me that I was thinking of possibly ZIGZAGS in front of me but they were actually on about the lines behind me, which didn’t click till the next morning.
So Sunday morning I went back into town and I could distinctly remember looking at my girlfriend and seeing shiny windows to the right of her and figured that I was at least 5-10 meters away from the ZIGZAG lines!!!
I have taken pictures of the road (about 15) as the lines on the opposite side of the road do go further and may have met my back wheel but they are only for the inside lane of the opposite side of the road!
I can upload these pictures to show you if you would like?
So all in all I got a fine and points ticket for something I didn’t do, and the police never got out of there car when I was stopped and guestimated from a car and a vans distance as to if I was on the lines!
They never cautioned me and said anything I say may be given in evidence either, in case that is relevant.
So what action can I take as I’m defiantly not standing for this and am choosing to go to court.
I’ve been driving since November 2005, no points and no accidents.
EDIT: oh in court do they have to provide evidence that i WAS on the lines rather than there word being accepted alone?
All advice welcome!
Regards
Liam
I'm hoping someone will be able to help me here or give me some good contacts (preferably free)
Here is what happened last Saturday night 19-05-07.
Drove into Nottingham town centre to pick my Girlfriend up from town (She hadn’t been drinking as she’s pregnant (might be useful for witness) anyway as I drove upto a roundabout a police car had a taxi pulled over and his lights on, as I came upto the police car he turned his lights on and started to pull out and pulled in behind me. I carried on driving down the road towards where I was planning on picking my girlfriend up (a car joined in between me and police car) as I went down the road I wanted to spin round to pull into bus stop but thought it would be suspicious as may look like im trying to loose them (being young and all and a Saturday night in town) so I carried on and decided I was going to go the very long way round to make my way up the opposite side of the road to pull into a bus stop (one of them ones that indents to the pavement allot) but as I went over a pelican crossing a taxi was pulled over about 15metres down the road (upper parliament street) so I pulled in behind him as the lights turned ot red and my girlfriend ran across the road and said bye to her mate and got it. By this time the Taxi had gone (about 10seconds) there was a white van behind a car behind me and then the police car behind the van. I drove off and went around a few corners making my way outbound of the city centre and then the police car was behind me again and had been for a fair way and just as I came around the corner that was for the road home they put their lights on and flashed me and indicated, so I pulled over and they asked me to come into the police car. I then sat down and they asked me if I know what I had done wrong, to which I gave the obvious answer of no, as I hadn’t a clue.
The police officer then went on to say that I had pulled over on ZIGZAG lines and that he’s going to issue a fixed penalty of 3 points and £60 (To my supprize as I didn’t know that it was THIS MUCH) also I didn’t even know that I was on the ZIGZAG lines in the first place, not wanting to cause a big argument of yes you was, no I wasn’t (and get them mad). He said he will issue the ticket and if I choose not to take the points then to scribble out the ticket (WHICH IS INCORECT!). When I asked the police officer why the taxi wasn’t in the wrong he said well he wasn’t on the ZIGZAG lines.. This is when it hit me that I was thinking of possibly ZIGZAGS in front of me but they were actually on about the lines behind me, which didn’t click till the next morning.
So Sunday morning I went back into town and I could distinctly remember looking at my girlfriend and seeing shiny windows to the right of her and figured that I was at least 5-10 meters away from the ZIGZAG lines!!!
I have taken pictures of the road (about 15) as the lines on the opposite side of the road do go further and may have met my back wheel but they are only for the inside lane of the opposite side of the road!
I can upload these pictures to show you if you would like?
So all in all I got a fine and points ticket for something I didn’t do, and the police never got out of there car when I was stopped and guestimated from a car and a vans distance as to if I was on the lines!
They never cautioned me and said anything I say may be given in evidence either, in case that is relevant.
So what action can I take as I’m defiantly not standing for this and am choosing to go to court.
I’ve been driving since November 2005, no points and no accidents.
EDIT: oh in court do they have to provide evidence that i WAS on the lines rather than there word being accepted alone?
All advice welcome!
Regards
Liam
Edited by shocker-z on Monday 21st May 18:46
shocker-z said:
Sorry i meant action as in what should i be doing to prepare and any advise on solicitors because i oviously dont want to be loosing out both ways..
Any free advice numbers?
Liam
Any free advice numbers?
Liam
Liam,
My first foray into the courtroom was from a very similar situation to yourself.
Like you, I am not willing to stand to be punished for something I am innocent of just because a local bobby has to meet a target by fair means or foul, or wants to massage his own ego.
In my case, fast forward six months I found myself in court, defending myself with my photos of the scene, I cross examined three police officers, the truth came out and I was found not guilty.
Liam, you have two ways forward. The first is to get a solicitor, this will cost you £500 or so up front, and he will be able to fill out all the paperwork for you etc and fight the case for you in court. Should you win, you will get these costs paid.
The second way forward is to defend the case yourself. This will mean following the instructions on the ticket for opting to go to trial. In a few months time you will get statements from the police officers, and you will have the chance to accept them to be read out in court, or reject them and then the Crown Prosecution Service will organise them to appear as witnesses on the day.
Although this sounds daunting, you may find that it is a rewarding and informative experience!
From my experience, you have every chance of winning the case by defending yourself. This indeed has a number of advantages for example you sound sincere in your approach and you can print off your own photos of the scene and bring them to court. Basically, as you are not expected to know better, the standard rules of the court are bent for you to accomodate you to fight your case.
(If your solicitor wanted to use photos he would have to pay a specialist photograper to take the photos and produce statements they are true copies and show copies to the CPS before trial etc)
If you want any more help on here or indeed by email based on the case itself, I would be glad to help.
Thanks mate,
That’s the kind of thing i was after
My brother said that there are some free motoring offence phone numbers you can phone for advice on what to say and so on, do you know of any? (rather get a reccomendation than just google and get some crap)
I think I will represent myself as i have a baby on the way in September so if I were to loose for one reason or another then it would near enough bankrupt me! and i am certain that i did not commit the offence at hand.
Thanks again this was the kind of thing i was looking for as i've never been in this situation and no one i know has either.
Regards
Liam
That’s the kind of thing i was after
My brother said that there are some free motoring offence phone numbers you can phone for advice on what to say and so on, do you know of any? (rather get a reccomendation than just google and get some crap)
I think I will represent myself as i have a baby on the way in September so if I were to loose for one reason or another then it would near enough bankrupt me! and i am certain that i did not commit the offence at hand.
Thanks again this was the kind of thing i was looking for as i've never been in this situation and no one i know has either.
Regards
Liam
Might be worth checking your car / home insurance, they often offer free lefal advice?
As for Streaky's comment - re: Terrorism Act, you're not far wrong in Nottingham if you are a young male in a car the police / council consider you as more dangerous than a paedophile, and certainly more worthy of causing difficulty / disruption for, but that's for another thread!
Liam - as a guess, did your gf enjoy Big Wok?
As for Streaky's comment - re: Terrorism Act, you're not far wrong in Nottingham if you are a young male in a car the police / council consider you as more dangerous than a paedophile, and certainly more worthy of causing difficulty / disruption for, but that's for another thread!
Liam - as a guess, did your gf enjoy Big Wok?
The CCTV idea might be worth a try, other than that a truthful witness statement for your other half and plenty of photos of the scene should help. You need to know where the police vehicle was when they say they saw you on the zigzags. Make sure that you test all of their observations to make sure that they are possible, i.e. is there an obstruction in-between that would stop them from actually seeing where you were at the time. You only have to cause reasonable doubt for the Mag to find you not guilty.
The BiB were probably eyeing up that particular spot for an emergency doughnut run and you taking the space caused a fit of pettiness.
The BiB were probably eyeing up that particular spot for an emergency doughnut run and you taking the space caused a fit of pettiness.
MilnerR said:
The CCTV idea might be worth a try, other than that a truthful witness statement for your other half and plenty of photos of the scene should help. You need to know where the police vehicle was when they say they saw you on the zigzags. Make sure that you test all of their observations to make sure that they are possible, i.e. is there an obstruction in-between that would stop them from actually seeing where you were at the time. You only have to cause reasonable doubt for the Mag to find you not guilty.
The BiB were probably eyeing up that particular spot for an emergency doughnut run and you taking the space caused a fit of pettiness.
The BiB were probably eyeing up that particular spot for an emergency doughnut run and you taking the space caused a fit of pettiness.
CCTV would be excellent, though Liam, you would have to get your skates on in case they are on a 7 day revolving scheme. If you can find someone helpful there, then your case is won.
It is of course the case that the police officers made their observations from behind a white van and another car. Also as you say the zigzags are not of equal lengths on both sides. Similarly, if you are pulled over to the side of the road it would be very difficult to se if there were zigzags *under* your car at the time!
It may be the case that they just 'assumed' wrongly and didnt check their facts properly. This was indeed what happened in my case. However, the problem may be is that after the event when they find that they will need to produce a statement 'facts' might appear so they can save face.
The best thing to do is write down anything you can remember about exactly where you parked and why you remember them. Also write down exactly what you said when questioned and what they said - this will be very useful if it doesnt tally up to what their statement says - did the officers make notes at the time?
Get your girlfriend to do the same - I guess she will remember where your car was - get her to write down anything she can remember about the positioning of the car, things like as you mentioned the windows on the buildings on the other side of the road etc. You *may* need to call her as a witness.
These statements are very inportant as if you are cross-examined and the facts doubted you can state that you made notes soon afterwards and these are backing up your 6 month old memories of the incident.
As far as the gameplan for questioning though, that is an art unto itself and will depend on what exactly what their statment says, but I would be happy to give you a hand with that when the time comes.
There seem to be a few cameras here but I don't know if any of them point to the right spot.
www.itsnottingham.info/
www.itsnottingham.info/
Thyanks for all the advice and help guys,
Everything counts..
Where are the actual camera's?
Does anyone know who i would ring to find out about any extra camera's and the tapes?
Regards
Liam
Everything counts..
herewego said:
There seem to be a few cameras here but I don't know if any of them point to the right spot.
www.itsnottingham.info/
www.itsnottingham.info/
Where are the actual camera's?
Does anyone know who i would ring to find out about any extra camera's and the tapes?
Regards
Liam
shocker-z said:
Thyanks for all the advice and help guys,
Everything counts..
Where are the actual camera's?
Does anyone know who i would ring to find out about any extra camera's and the tapes?
Regards
Liam
Everything counts..
herewego said:
There seem to be a few cameras here but I don't know if any of them point to the right spot.
www.itsnottingham.info/
www.itsnottingham.info/
Where are the actual camera's?
Does anyone know who i would ring to find out about any extra camera's and the tapes?
Regards
Liam
You have to click on:
Nottingham Traffic Cameras
I can't do everything for you.
herewego said:
shocker-z said:
Thyanks for all the advice and help guys,
Everything counts..
Does anyone know who i would ring to find out about any extra camera's and the tapes?
Regards
Liam
You have to click on:Everything counts..
herewego said:
There seem to be a few cameras here but I don't know if any of them point to the right spot.
http://www.itsnottingham.info/
Where are the actual camera's?http://www.itsnottingham.info/
Does anyone know who i would ring to find out about any extra camera's and the tapes?
Regards
Liam
Nottingham Traffic Cameras
I can't do everything for you.
- very very grateful mode OFF*
I've phoned up and asked them to call me with information on where i can have a look through footage.
Liam
Edited by shocker-z on Wednesday 23 May 07:23
Do you mean the Upper Parliament / Wollaton Street camera? What a laugh. They seem to have painted a bus stop over the zig zags so the zig zags no longer exist and it's OK for a bus to stop there apparently. If you've stopped in the bus stop I think you should go and show the police a picture of the location since that is just the same as picking up or setting down on a yellow line.
The Zig Zags are so short that there is no way you can have parked on them.
The Zig Zags are so short that there is no way you can have parked on them.
Edited by herewego on Wednesday 23 May 09:12
Edited by herewego on Wednesday 23 May 09:23
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