Owning the dream as a non-depreciating asset?
Discussion
Been mulling this over a little lately, so I thought I would ask someone here to tell me to pull my head out of my backside and stop kidding myself. 
I have had the thought (after watching F40 prices creeping up for almost a year now) that I could very easily buy an F40 and re-sell with (at worst) very little loss - perhaps even a gain.
Last summer, F40's were about £185k. Now they are about £225k. My idea would be to purchase the F40 cash - delight in the ownership until such time as the time was right - then sell.
Is this a crazy idea? Questions :
In order to avoid a huge value drop because of condition, would I have to leave it in shrink-wrap for the entire time, or would X thousand miles per year be acceptable?
Are F40's vastly expensive to maintain - even for the above 'X-thousand' miles a year?
Finally - whilst I am reasonably lucky with my house, would I have to be thinking about extra security to a regular garage? CCTV? Air-conditioning added to the garage? So on?
Someone tell me I am out of my mind to consider this.
P~
I have had the thought (after watching F40 prices creeping up for almost a year now) that I could very easily buy an F40 and re-sell with (at worst) very little loss - perhaps even a gain.
Last summer, F40's were about £185k. Now they are about £225k. My idea would be to purchase the F40 cash - delight in the ownership until such time as the time was right - then sell.
Is this a crazy idea? Questions :
In order to avoid a huge value drop because of condition, would I have to leave it in shrink-wrap for the entire time, or would X thousand miles per year be acceptable?
Are F40's vastly expensive to maintain - even for the above 'X-thousand' miles a year?
Finally - whilst I am reasonably lucky with my house, would I have to be thinking about extra security to a regular garage? CCTV? Air-conditioning added to the garage? So on?
Someone tell me I am out of my mind to consider this.
P~
Don't know about general running costs, but there is a guy on www.clubscuderia.com who is having a lot of work done to his F40.
Probably best to ask an owner.
I believe at some point the "bag" fuel tanks need replacing, but that is hardly routine maintainance.
See "F40 Power" thread below as well - a few owners/ex-owners on there.
Probably best to ask an owner.
I believe at some point the "bag" fuel tanks need replacing, but that is hardly routine maintainance.
See "F40 Power" thread below as well - a few owners/ex-owners on there.
Edited by nem351s on Tuesday 22 May 12:06
I think you should go for it before prices rise further, and before the obvious flaw in the plan becomes apparent.
I'd imagine keeping an F40 would cost a few quid, not least because you'd want to keep it in tip top condition, so you won't be able to put things off, or do them on the cheap (as this is the kind of thing that will affect the value). The main issue would be that regardless of probable reliability, I would imagine that an F40 has the potential for giving you the odd massive shock bill wise....
But hey, what an experience ....
I'd imagine keeping an F40 would cost a few quid, not least because you'd want to keep it in tip top condition, so you won't be able to put things off, or do them on the cheap (as this is the kind of thing that will affect the value). The main issue would be that regardless of probable reliability, I would imagine that an F40 has the potential for giving you the odd massive shock bill wise....
But hey, what an experience ....
Edited by guydw on Tuesday 22 May 12:09
Massive flaw??? Where?
You see - that is what I am looking for at the minute - the big flaw.
It's just the 'bud' of an idea, but one that's been itching my mind for a long time now - usually at 3am when I cannot sleep!
I do think I have missed the boat when it comes to the circa 40k rise on the last year, but the way I figure it, an F40 should always hold/gain value over the longer term - even if did (god forbid!) have to 'shrink wrap' it for a few years until the market recovered, I would always expect an F40 to respond well to 'investment' over and above the more 'main stream' Ferraris.
Will continue to read up.
You see - that is what I am looking for at the minute - the big flaw.
It's just the 'bud' of an idea, but one that's been itching my mind for a long time now - usually at 3am when I cannot sleep!
I do think I have missed the boat when it comes to the circa 40k rise on the last year, but the way I figure it, an F40 should always hold/gain value over the longer term - even if did (god forbid!) have to 'shrink wrap' it for a few years until the market recovered, I would always expect an F40 to respond well to 'investment' over and above the more 'main stream' Ferraris.
Will continue to read up.
Jonny5 said:
You can buck the trend of losing money on cars, but it's a risky ground to be in
I absolutely agree - but my thinking has lead me to the F40 (lead me HA! I have always held the F40 at position 1 in my dream garage) as the obvious 'trend bucker' and a guaranteed present/future classic, but I still have my eyes quite wide open - hence the original topic.
Really, what I am hoping for here is an obvious, "Don't because of....", otherwise my wife is going to be giving me that look again when I talk about doing this. My current Golf GTI was a purchase she thought was 'too extravagant on something that is just going to lose money'. I can see her thinking about moving again - just to spite me!! Ha ha!
Just seems like a large step - actually parting with the cash. It would also be worth 2/3rds of the same value as our house (since we are quite reserved when it comes to large purchases) so it's a huge mental step.
Don't envy me just yet - it may be a while before I pluck up the courage/convince the wife - if at all!
Just a little homework at this stage.
I do have a habit of seeing pretty much everything as a plus and minus value on a spreadsheet. I would look at £200k+ and think what it could earn me elsewhere - as will the wife - so it's about assessing what we choose to afford in that sense, rather than what we stand to make. Does that make sense?
Don't envy me just yet - it may be a while before I pluck up the courage/convince the wife - if at all!
Just a little homework at this stage.
I do have a habit of seeing pretty much everything as a plus and minus value on a spreadsheet. I would look at £200k+ and think what it could earn me elsewhere - as will the wife - so it's about assessing what we choose to afford in that sense, rather than what we stand to make. Does that make sense?
Interesting as I'm actively looking at the F40 market for a client. He is going in with eyes open - it might retain it's value, it might not and it might cost a lot to maintain. He certainly is not buying for profit. The thing is, F40s now are not that far away from list price when they were new - £160-70k. In today's money that's £330k or so. So in 'real money' terms F40s have lost a fair chunk since new, plus all the costs. Where would you see the price maxing out? It's hard to say, but the same amount properly invested might make a much larger return, with much lower maintenance costs.
Having said that (and as the client said) - you only live once.
Having said that (and as the client said) - you only live once.
rubystone said:
You need to speak to Albert over on Club Scuderia - he not only owns one but also uses it as intended. Tank changes are at least £10,000 and need doing every few years.
And for a very clean low mileage example (used to be owned by Verdi) I think it's cost ££££ in terms of engine back at Ferrari Italy
There is a great thread and eye opener on club scuderia
www.clubscuderia.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=11294&highlight=albert+compression
Don't get me wrong - it's not about "owning for a profit" or "never going to drive it". What I am saying is that (given my nature) I would like to minimise the COST of ownership. To me that means looking at any potential value fluctuation against the costs in owning and running the vehicle for (say) 3000 miles a year for a few years.
Cash reserves are not an issue (Christ that sounds terrible - but you know what I mean). What is the issue is trying to establish the things I did not know about - like the fuel tank thing already mentioned. It's not like buying an Ariel Atom and keeping it for sunny days - I need to think about location of servicing, extra storage requirements and costs (the aforementioned garage modifications or the winter months). Yes, I am in a positive financial situation - but I am there because I have been very cautious so far. Its the reason I do run a Golf GTI every day and not something more...er...Pistonheads!
TCF - I have had a look at your site. I may keep you in mind for the future.
Cash reserves are not an issue (Christ that sounds terrible - but you know what I mean). What is the issue is trying to establish the things I did not know about - like the fuel tank thing already mentioned. It's not like buying an Ariel Atom and keeping it for sunny days - I need to think about location of servicing, extra storage requirements and costs (the aforementioned garage modifications or the winter months). Yes, I am in a positive financial situation - but I am there because I have been very cautious so far. Its the reason I do run a Golf GTI every day and not something more...er...Pistonheads!
TCF - I have had a look at your site. I may keep you in mind for the future.
theres a lovely example for sale here in sweden
www.bytbil.com/carinfo.cgi?id=88D85ED6E013FB&look=remo
my all time favourite car,its just this part that lets me down :-(
2,450,000.00 SEK = 181,531.14 GBP
www.bytbil.com/carinfo.cgi?id=88D85ED6E013FB&look=remo
my all time favourite car,its just this part that lets me down :-(
2,450,000.00 SEK = 181,531.14 GBP
g@ry said:
18400 km,s new turbo and wastegate
dunno about the tanks though,not my car and i have nothing to do with the ad,seems cheaper than u.k prices at the moment though........
want me to pick it up for you :-)
dunno about the tanks though,not my car and i have nothing to do with the ad,seems cheaper than u.k prices at the moment though........
want me to pick it up for you :-)
I've had a look at that car - very patchy service history and needs tanks doing. Wouldn't be enough in it to 'turn' in my opinion.
PhantomPH said:
Don't get me wrong - it's not about "owning for a profit" or "never going to drive it". What I am saying is that (given my nature) I would like to minimise the COST of ownership. To me that means looking at any potential value fluctuation against the costs in owning and running the vehicle for (say) 3000 miles a year for a few years.
Cash reserves are not an issue (Christ that sounds terrible - but you know what I mean). What is the issue is trying to establish the things I did not know about - like the fuel tank thing already mentioned. It's not like buying an Ariel Atom and keeping it for sunny days - I need to think about location of servicing, extra storage requirements and costs (the aforementioned garage modifications or the winter months). Yes, I am in a positive financial situation - but I am there because I have been very cautious so far. Its the reason I do run a Golf GTI every day and not something more...er...Pistonheads!
TCF - I have had a look at your site. I may keep you in mind for the future.
Cash reserves are not an issue (Christ that sounds terrible - but you know what I mean). What is the issue is trying to establish the things I did not know about - like the fuel tank thing already mentioned. It's not like buying an Ariel Atom and keeping it for sunny days - I need to think about location of servicing, extra storage requirements and costs (the aforementioned garage modifications or the winter months). Yes, I am in a positive financial situation - but I am there because I have been very cautious so far. Its the reason I do run a Golf GTI every day and not something more...er...Pistonheads!
TCF - I have had a look at your site. I may keep you in mind for the future.
Please do - I'm a bit of a bore on the F40 market at the moment! 3000 miles (5,000km) a year would be a lot in an F40 in terms of depreciation - the average mileage is about 15,000kms and the cars are a minimum of 15 years old. However in terms of cost/fun factor it is a potentially positive exercise - say that, although the market increases you put some miles on the car and your car only increases 1/5 of the overall market - that would still cover a proportion of your costs.
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