engines again.....sorry

[jasongtr]

being a week away from ordering the first stages i just want to be 100% sure i am doing the right thing, i have read much about the carbed engines on here and how they use/lose a lot of oil, and people are suggesting LS7 engines, am i going to make the biggest mistake of my life by starting something i wont be happy with the constant attention she'll need or is it generally accepted as being part of the ownership experience to 'do' this constant attention to the old engines

[Boosted LS1]

A carbed engine should be just fine but I'd want it to have a proper pcv system, not just breath to atmosphere.

Boosted.

[jasongtr]

pcv??

[andygtt]

A carbed SBC will:
- leak oil
- at all times smell of petrol (major problem if you garage is attached to your house)
- stall under heavy braking
- not like cruising at under 2000rpm
- retain huge amount of heat

on the plus side they have an almost unrivaled power band (for the money) and will give awsome performance... and they sound fantastic.
They also take advantage of a loop hole in the SVA regulations due to the age of.

Having had a SBC Ultima I'd never fit one again, but as a new builder you will have little choice as you will not be supported unless you fit one or an LS7.

[jasongtr]

by supported do you mean by the factory, and do they now support/recommend LS7?

[davefiddes]

PCV == Positive Crankcase Ventilation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCV_valve)

I fitted a pretty billet one to my engine a few weeks ago and it does seem to have made the idle smoother and cut down the smell after the engine has been running.

[jasongtr]

so you think the carbed engines are ok to live with?

[Boosted LS1]

jasongtr said:

so you think the carbed engines are ok to live with?

Yep, they just need to be set up correctly, with some thought. Lets face it, they've been around for long enough!

Andygtt said.

"A carbed SBC will:
- leak oil
- at all times smell of petrol (major problem if you garage is attached to your house)
- stall under heavy braking
- not like cruising at under 2000rpm
- retain huge amount of heat"

Shouldn't be like this if sorted properly and with pcv plus proper transition slot activation etc.

Boosted.

[jasongtr]

seems like i have a lot to learn about the engines here, transition slot activation means the same to me as, the widget transponder north facing googleflipper


I am now lost in a technical world i cannot comprehend

[GTWayne]

Don't sweat it, best thing to do is get yourself down to a show/meet where a few Ultima have converged and speak to those that actually have practical experience of different spec/type motors in an Ultima.

[jasongtr]

cheers wayne, like the idea of the LS7 but thats with my limited knowledge, dont lke the sound of cars stalling and fuel smell, massive oil comsumption/smoking etc...

[YIIHAA]

andygtt said:

A carbed SBC will:
- leak oil
- at all times smell of petrol (major problem if you garage is attached to your house)
- stall under heavy braking
- not like cruising at under 2000rpm
- retain huge amount of heat

I have an AS SBC engine, 545HP package from 2001. I have no oil leaks, and never had. Oil consumption is around 1 litre / 1000 miles, not that high.

I don't have any problems with it stalling under braking once it is warm (but I do have an Edelbrock (Weber) carb instead of the usual Holley)

I thought the smelling of petrol problem had been put down to the use of Goodridge 600 hoses that weep fuel. At least that's what I read in another thread. Changing to an LS7 wouldn't fix that.

I agree with your other two points.

On the other hand there is a huge cost saving by going the SBC route, and there is plenty of literature around for the keen home mechanic. When (if) your LS7 starts misbehaving you will find it harder to fix yourself, or find UK people competent to fix it.

[crafty]

the LS7 is the big daddy of a series of engines known as the "LS".. its the 7.0L version ... there are other engines in that range that are much cheaper... including an iron block version of the 6.0 LS2 which is used in Escalades etc which can be had new for about USD4K less harness.

I am running stock cast iron manifolds and stock vette cats.... so you needn't plan on having to spend thousands on headers either.

You need to get on the LS1tech.com forum... loads of info there.

[TuxMan]

I used a british built sbc with my own sourced bits and fitted fuel injection ,result : very little oil use good reliable 420 british BHP and a hell of alot cheaper than most !!!!! with top quality parts fitted ,the only thing i don't have is factory backing .................after all EFI does not work on sbc .

[jasongtr]

so for the various 'common' engine options there are what sort of cost am i looking at, total cost that is not just the engine - i.e if it needs additional wiring, ecu, pcv's, etc etc


thanks

[Boosted LS1]

YIIHAA said:

andygtt said:

A carbed SBC will:
- leak oil
- at all times smell of petrol (major problem if you garage is attached to your house)
- stall under heavy braking
- not like cruising at under 2000rpm
- retain huge amount of heat

I don't have any I thought the smelling of petrol problem had been put down to the use of Goodridge 600 hoses that weep fuel. At least that's what I read in another thread. Changing to an LS7 wouldn't fix that.

On the other hand there is a huge cost saving by going the SBC route, and there is plenty of literature around for the keen home mechanic. When (if) your LS7 starts misbehaving you will find it harder to fix yourself, or find UK people competent to fix it.

My take on fuel smelling in the car is that it's probably the float bowl vents (holley) which evaporate fuel into the air cleaner engine bay assuming the lines are ok.

Building/fixings lsx's isn't to much of a problem

Boosted.

[DHGTR]

jason , i looked at an option from gardner douglas about 18 months ago, i spoke to them at the autosport show and with EVERYTHING needed to make the car work the bill would be about £15k. the prics may have come down a bit since then but it is still a more expensive option when weighed against a sbc from the states where you would pay $6k-$7k for around 500bhp at the moment. ls7 is newer cleaner etc but sbc is good value (bang for buck) but needs a little more looking after. i personally would wait much nearer the time of fitting to make your decision but just keep aware of what happens in the engine market. could you be 2 years away from needing the engine, an awful lot can develop in 2 years.

[andygtt]

OK let me elaborate.

- due to the design and almost total lack of bolts on the SBC (4 bolts per rocker cover!!!) it is very dificult to get the SBC 100% oil leak free.. not imposible but a challenge... my AS engine had minor oil leaks from new and also used under 1L per 1000miles.

- IMO The fuel smell is due to the sheer amount of petrol dumped into the engine, I had straight through exhausts and huge flames used to come through which was due to the unregulated fuel... I also put my AS engine on PK's dyno and the carb was absultelly spot on fuelling wise.
I do agree that the filler hose adds to the smell, I'd personnely have some fabricated from alloy.

- Can anyone with a carb actually do an emergency stop with one foot on the brake and the other on the clutch whithout it stalling? even the factory demonstrator stalled on the 0-100-0 challenge! and every Ultima I have driven does this and yet my 200bhp per litre 1988 cossie didn't or any other car I have owned!

Now don't get me wrong, I loved my car and the SBC's performance is simply awsome, I also drove the car hard to and from tracks and used the car for work etc...... also my engine is still going strong with it's third owner and over £15k miles and last time I drove it (around 10k) the engine had definatelly got better with age.

I would accept the above on a hot rod or a cheap kit, but I want more from my brand new £50k car and IMO the LS series offers all of the SBC benefits with none of the drawbacks as they use efficient EFI and are actually designed to keep the oil in.

As for cost, one of my friends was going the SBC route, but later decided to go for an LS1 instead, he now has a genuine 6.0L 450bhp engine built from new parts for around £3k which mates straight up to his porsche adapter.

IMO the only thing that should stop someone going the LS route is cost as the factory only support the expensive LS7, ruling out the coste effective LS1 etc which is a real shame.

[jasongtr]

i guess thats what i needed to know at the very end andy, the factory supports LS7's

[ultimaCZ]

Dont think the fuel smell is the problem of the SBC only. My LS7 smells nearly as badly as the old SBC, especially in a small garage. Not engine related, therefore, in my experience.