BBC News - ACPO and License Plates
Discussion
Did anyone else see this?
Shockingly, with no plod on the roads, people are cloning plates, and using them for armed robberies and speeding.....He didn't think that the DVLA website could be trusted.
Did ACPO say
a) We need more police on the streets
b) We need an electronic tag on the cars
c) Speeding fines ought to be ignored now due to database issues
Shockingly, with no plod on the roads, people are cloning plates, and using them for armed robberies and speeding.....He didn't think that the DVLA website could be trusted.
Did ACPO say
a) We need more police on the streets
b) We need an electronic tag on the cars
c) Speeding fines ought to be ignored now due to database issues
Did you notice that the focus was on actually "stealing number-plates", with little mention of "cloning". There was a demonstration of "thief-proof" plates, that shatter when you crow-bar hem off the car (!). Then the piece continued with the suggestion that this could be combatted by an electronic gizmo embedded within the plate. Sadly, many people watching will have been taken in by what was incomplete and therefore inaccurate and biased (pro-government) reporting - Streaky
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6707367.stm
BBC report said:
Call for car number plate revamp
Car number plate
Thousands of vehicle number plates were stolen last year
The number plate system needs to be completely overhauled to beat a rise in "car cloning", police have said.
The Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo) says a record number of vehicles are being cloned to escape motoring fines and commit crimes.
More than 40,000 sets of number plates were stolen in 2006, a rise of almost 25%, according to police estimates.
Police blame rules on registering plate buyers and suppliers, making fake plates more difficult to get hold of.
No confidence
Acpo's Coventry-based Vehicle Crime Intelligence Service says it now has no confidence in the ability of the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) licensing system to prevent cloning.
The service's Supt John Wake told BBC News: "The registration plate is the first form of identification of the vehicle to the general public.
It was horrendous. You are guilty until you can prove you're not
Tony Bullock
Car cloning victim
Send us your reaction
"I don't have confidence that beyond that you can identify that that vehicle is the legitimate vehicle for that plate."
Acpo wants a central issuing body for the registration numbers, and all cars to have tamper-proof plates fitted.
The DVLA is considering forcing all the UK's 1.3 million motorcycles to be fitted with plates featuring electronic tags, which are currently being trialled.
The AA's Paul Watters said the amount of cloned number plates was "growing fast".
"It seems to be on a roll and we need to start taking some action to look at the innocent motorist who may fall victim to some of the issues which follow up the theft of a number plate," he said.
Whenever there were police cars lying on the side of the road, I used to get stopped
Drivers' tales of plate problems
"There are different levels of cloning. There is the simple cloning, just stealing a plate to drive into say the Congestion Charge zone or evade a speed camera.
"It ranges up to a higher level which is the car criminal who wants to sell on a stolen car."
Tony Bullock's car was cloned even though his plates were not physically stolen, and he was threatened with prosecution after "his" car was repeatedly caught speeding in Leicester.
He said: "It was horrendous. You are guilty until you can prove you're not. It's the first time that I've thought that English law is on its head."
Metropolitan Police Federation chairman Glen Smyth said the problem has grown because of the amount of camera-based enforcement of traffic offences, which relies on computer records on who owns which car.
Car number plate
Thousands of vehicle number plates were stolen last year
The number plate system needs to be completely overhauled to beat a rise in "car cloning", police have said.
The Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo) says a record number of vehicles are being cloned to escape motoring fines and commit crimes.
More than 40,000 sets of number plates were stolen in 2006, a rise of almost 25%, according to police estimates.
Police blame rules on registering plate buyers and suppliers, making fake plates more difficult to get hold of.
No confidence
Acpo's Coventry-based Vehicle Crime Intelligence Service says it now has no confidence in the ability of the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) licensing system to prevent cloning.
The service's Supt John Wake told BBC News: "The registration plate is the first form of identification of the vehicle to the general public.
It was horrendous. You are guilty until you can prove you're not
Tony Bullock
Car cloning victim
Send us your reaction
"I don't have confidence that beyond that you can identify that that vehicle is the legitimate vehicle for that plate."
Acpo wants a central issuing body for the registration numbers, and all cars to have tamper-proof plates fitted.
The DVLA is considering forcing all the UK's 1.3 million motorcycles to be fitted with plates featuring electronic tags, which are currently being trialled.
The AA's Paul Watters said the amount of cloned number plates was "growing fast".
"It seems to be on a roll and we need to start taking some action to look at the innocent motorist who may fall victim to some of the issues which follow up the theft of a number plate," he said.
Whenever there were police cars lying on the side of the road, I used to get stopped
Drivers' tales of plate problems
"There are different levels of cloning. There is the simple cloning, just stealing a plate to drive into say the Congestion Charge zone or evade a speed camera.
"It ranges up to a higher level which is the car criminal who wants to sell on a stolen car."
Tony Bullock's car was cloned even though his plates were not physically stolen, and he was threatened with prosecution after "his" car was repeatedly caught speeding in Leicester.
He said: "It was horrendous. You are guilty until you can prove you're not. It's the first time that I've thought that English law is on its head."
Metropolitan Police Federation chairman Glen Smyth said the problem has grown because of the amount of camera-based enforcement of traffic offences, which relies on computer records on who owns which car.
streaky said:
Did you notice that the focus was on actually "stealing number-plates", with little mention of "cloning". There was a demonstration of "thief-proof" plates, that shatter when you crow-bar hem off the car (!). Then the piece continued with the suggestion that this could be combatted by an electronic gizmo embedded within the plate. Sadly, many people watching will have been taken in by what was incomplete and therefore inaccurate and biased (pro-government) reporting - Streaky
Maybe if we had the same laws applying to Scotland and Northern Ireland as apply to England and Wales then getting numberplates made without any paperwork would be a tad more difficult. Except that you'd suddenly find suppliers popping up in Eire or Holland supplying plates and therefore outside the reach of the law once more. But that's really just a side issue.The biggest problem is that the DVLA's obsession with the "Registered Keeper" is long past its sell-by date. The V5C should be a title deed of ownership, not the nebulous concept that it is. Your house has a title deed and you can't write to the Land Registry and ask for a property to be put in your name just because you know the address of it. We need a much better system of registering vehicle OWNERSHIP!
streaky said:
Did you notice that the focus was on actually "stealing number-plates", with little mention of "cloning". There was a demonstration of "thief-proof" plates, that shatter when you crow-bar hem off the car (!). Then the piece continued with the suggestion that this could be combatted by an electronic gizmo embedded within the plate. Sadly, many people watching will have been taken in by what was incomplete and therefore inaccurate and biased (pro-government) reporting - Streaky
The anti-tamper plates with rfid embedded was mooted about two years ago. This must be the start of the propaganda campaign for the masses. Chrispy Porker said:
Agreed.
And numberplates issued by the authorities as in some other countries.
Surely this will increase the level of theft for cloning since alternate sources for plates will no longer exist.And numberplates issued by the authorities as in some other countries.
In your scenario, victims of plate thefts will be off the road for a week or more until the 'authorities' re-iisue plates (at a not inconsiderate cost).
KenP said:
Chrispy Porker said:
Agreed.
And numberplates issued by the authorities as in some other countries.
Surely this will increase the level of theft for cloning since alternate sources for plates will no longer exist.And numberplates issued by the authorities as in some other countries.
In your scenario, victims of plate thefts will be off the road for a week or more until the 'authorities' re-iisue plates (at a not inconsiderate cost).
herewego said:
Not if they shatter when they are removed.
Today: pondlife scum disables every car on a street for a day or two by slashing their tyres.Tomorrow: pondlife scum disables every car on a street for a week or more by breaking their reg plates...
Oh yes, I think fitting easily broken items to a vehicle, the absence of which will result in both financial AND legal grief for the driver, is going to be a recipe for disaster in some parts of the country.
twister said:
herewego said:
Not if they shatter when they are removed.
Today: pondlife scum disables every car on a street for a day or two by slashing their tyres.Tomorrow: pondlife scum disables every car on a street for a week or more by breaking their reg plates...
Oh yes, I think fitting easily broken items to a vehicle, the absence of which will result in both financial AND legal grief for the driver, is going to be a recipe for disaster in some parts of the country.
herewego said:
twister said:
herewego said:
Not if they shatter when they are removed.
Today: pondlife scum disables every car on a street for a day or two by slashing their tyres.Tomorrow: pondlife scum disables every car on a street for a week or more by breaking their reg plates...
Oh yes, I think fitting easily broken items to a vehicle, the absence of which will result in both financial AND legal grief for the driver, is going to be a recipe for disaster in some parts of the country.
herewego said:
twister said:
herewego said:
Not if they shatter when they are removed.
Today: pondlife scum disables every car on a street for a day or two by slashing their tyres.Tomorrow: pondlife scum disables every car on a street for a week or more by breaking their reg plates...
Oh yes, I think fitting easily broken items to a vehicle, the absence of which will result in both financial AND legal grief for the driver, is going to be a recipe for disaster in some parts of the country.
Weeks, during which, your vehicle would be unusable.
Yesterday Safe Speed issued the following PR:
PR493: Vehicle registration process is latest speed camera casualty
news: for immediate release
The Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) are calling for changes to the
vehicle registration process because cameras are causing drivers to evade
vehicle registration requirements, the BBC reports [1].
Paul Smith, founder of SafeSpeed.org.uk, said: "This problem was entirely
predictable and we have been warning about it for FIVE YEARS [2]. Technical
solutions will not work and will cost millions.
"In the TWO WEEKS ALONE we have learned that camera enforcement is damaging the
justice system [3], the licence points system [4] and, today, the vehicle
registration system. How long will it be before the authorities wake up to the
collateral damage caused by speed cameras? How long will it be before the
authorities admit that our road safety system itself is also being seriously
damaged?"
"Speed cameras are to road safety what a hammer is to clock repair."
"We don't need clever vehicle registration. But we do need to scrap the failed
speed camera policy, as a matter of extreme urgency. No wonder our 10 Downing
Street petition has gained 24,000 signatures:
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/scrapcam .
<ends>
Notes for editors
[1] BBC Report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6707367.stm
[2] http://www.safespeed.org.uk/dangers.html
paragraph 7.15, last updated November 2002.
[3] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SafeSpeedPR/message/...
[4] http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_styl...
+++
It's been quoted by Reuters: http://uk.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKL0238874...
And the Mail on Sunday: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/new...
+++
Today Safe Speed issued further PR on the subject:
PR494: The crimes that government created
news: for immediate release
Yesterday the Association of Chief Police Officers announced a 'need' to revamp
the vehicle registration process. [1]
But what's really going on here? Number plate thefts are up. Uninsured driving
is up. Hit and run is up. Vehicle cloning is up. False vehicle registration
details are probably well up. Many vehicles are untraceable, and motorists are
being convicted of the serious criminal offence of perverting the course
of justice.
As the authorities increasing rely on number plates for the automated
enforcement of motoring offences, for taxes and for criminal identification,
people will increasingly respond by putting themselves outside of the system.
Enforcement with cameras and computers is causing these undesirable responses
and consequential new crimes. While this was easily predictable - even obvious
- the authorities apparently took no account of the possibility.
The actions that are causing these problems include: Speed cameras, bus lane
cameras, overzealous parking enforcement, Automatic Number Plate Recognition
(ANPR) and congestion charging.
In the last five or six years these enforcement methods and technologies have
multiplied at an unprecedented rate. None of it has be useful, necessary or
effective. Far from building a better society, it should now be completely
obvious that all these devices and methods are building a far worse society.
They are developed and promoted by those with a vested interest, and the only
people who do well from them are the technology suppliers themselves. Crimes -
like car cloning - were the exclusive preserve of bank robbers and organised
car thieves just five years ago, but already are an epidemic and a major
concern.
Paul Smith, founder of SafeSpeed.org.uk, said: "As the authorities make simply
displaying a correct vehicle registration increasingly onerous, we should not
be surprised that previously responsible people find that they are better off
outside the system. And as for criminals - they are beginning to discover that
simply displaying a 'clean' vehicle registration makes them invisible.
"The criminal response to all this automation hasn't even been considered - let
alone properly considered. It is naive in the extreme to imagine that automated
detection of offences wouldn't have met with a wide range of counter-measures
taken by criminals and by members of the public.
"And as for road safety, the negative side effects of all this should be
obvious." [2]
"We need to recognise that technology makes an excellent servant, but a cruel
and incompetent master. Simply layering more technology over the top - like
advanced vehicle registration systems - will inevitably make matters worse as
evasion and avoidance become increasingly sophisticated and widespread. A
spiral of escalation is already here and the only winners are the technology
suppliers."
"We need to say 'no thanks' to technical enforcement of motoring laws. We need
to adopt the old systems that properly targeted criminals and irresponsible
behaviour. We need to recognise that short-sighted government, coloured by the
profits made by technology suppliers, are seriously damaging road safety and
the fabric of society."
"People could be forgiven for believing that we're all living in a jerrybuilt
version of the big brother house - and I for one don't blame them for wanting
to leave."
<ends>
Notes for editors
[1] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SafeSpeedPR/message/...
[2] http://www.safespeed.org.uk/sideeffects.pdf
PR493: Vehicle registration process is latest speed camera casualty
news: for immediate release
The Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) are calling for changes to the
vehicle registration process because cameras are causing drivers to evade
vehicle registration requirements, the BBC reports [1].
Paul Smith, founder of SafeSpeed.org.uk, said: "This problem was entirely
predictable and we have been warning about it for FIVE YEARS [2]. Technical
solutions will not work and will cost millions.
"In the TWO WEEKS ALONE we have learned that camera enforcement is damaging the
justice system [3], the licence points system [4] and, today, the vehicle
registration system. How long will it be before the authorities wake up to the
collateral damage caused by speed cameras? How long will it be before the
authorities admit that our road safety system itself is also being seriously
damaged?"
"Speed cameras are to road safety what a hammer is to clock repair."
"We don't need clever vehicle registration. But we do need to scrap the failed
speed camera policy, as a matter of extreme urgency. No wonder our 10 Downing
Street petition has gained 24,000 signatures:
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/scrapcam .
<ends>
Notes for editors
===========
[1] BBC Report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6707367.stm
[2] http://www.safespeed.org.uk/dangers.html
paragraph 7.15, last updated November 2002.
[3] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SafeSpeedPR/message/...
[4] http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_styl...
+++
It's been quoted by Reuters: http://uk.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKL0238874...
And the Mail on Sunday: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/new...
+++
Today Safe Speed issued further PR on the subject:
PR494: The crimes that government created
news: for immediate release
Yesterday the Association of Chief Police Officers announced a 'need' to revamp
the vehicle registration process. [1]
But what's really going on here? Number plate thefts are up. Uninsured driving
is up. Hit and run is up. Vehicle cloning is up. False vehicle registration
details are probably well up. Many vehicles are untraceable, and motorists are
being convicted of the serious criminal offence of perverting the course
of justice.
As the authorities increasing rely on number plates for the automated
enforcement of motoring offences, for taxes and for criminal identification,
people will increasingly respond by putting themselves outside of the system.
Enforcement with cameras and computers is causing these undesirable responses
and consequential new crimes. While this was easily predictable - even obvious
- the authorities apparently took no account of the possibility.
The actions that are causing these problems include: Speed cameras, bus lane
cameras, overzealous parking enforcement, Automatic Number Plate Recognition
(ANPR) and congestion charging.
In the last five or six years these enforcement methods and technologies have
multiplied at an unprecedented rate. None of it has be useful, necessary or
effective. Far from building a better society, it should now be completely
obvious that all these devices and methods are building a far worse society.
They are developed and promoted by those with a vested interest, and the only
people who do well from them are the technology suppliers themselves. Crimes -
like car cloning - were the exclusive preserve of bank robbers and organised
car thieves just five years ago, but already are an epidemic and a major
concern.
Paul Smith, founder of SafeSpeed.org.uk, said: "As the authorities make simply
displaying a correct vehicle registration increasingly onerous, we should not
be surprised that previously responsible people find that they are better off
outside the system. And as for criminals - they are beginning to discover that
simply displaying a 'clean' vehicle registration makes them invisible.
"The criminal response to all this automation hasn't even been considered - let
alone properly considered. It is naive in the extreme to imagine that automated
detection of offences wouldn't have met with a wide range of counter-measures
taken by criminals and by members of the public.
"And as for road safety, the negative side effects of all this should be
obvious." [2]
"We need to recognise that technology makes an excellent servant, but a cruel
and incompetent master. Simply layering more technology over the top - like
advanced vehicle registration systems - will inevitably make matters worse as
evasion and avoidance become increasingly sophisticated and widespread. A
spiral of escalation is already here and the only winners are the technology
suppliers."
"We need to say 'no thanks' to technical enforcement of motoring laws. We need
to adopt the old systems that properly targeted criminals and irresponsible
behaviour. We need to recognise that short-sighted government, coloured by the
profits made by technology suppliers, are seriously damaging road safety and
the fabric of society."
"People could be forgiven for believing that we're all living in a jerrybuilt
version of the big brother house - and I for one don't blame them for wanting
to leave."
<ends>
Notes for editors
===========
[1] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SafeSpeedPR/message/...
[2] http://www.safespeed.org.uk/sideeffects.pdf
The Wiz said:
The most telling comment in that piece is 'guilty until proven innnocent'. This government or the Police just don't give a damn about Presumption of Innocence.
How's that then ?How are you guilty until proven innocent ?
Anyone can elect a trial & it is the burden of the prosecution to prove the case beyond reasonable doubt.
vonhosen said:
The Wiz said:
The most telling comment in that piece is 'guilty until proven innnocent'. This government or the Police just don't give a damn about Presumption of Innocence.
How's that then ?How are you guilty until proven innocent ?
Anyone can elect a trial & it is the burden of the prosecution to prove the case beyond reasonable doubt.
Mags say "OK SCP, you've proved your case. Mr Public, prove this isn't you."
As you well know Von, the cards are stacked as are the costs against Mr Public while he tried to prove it's either not him or the speed is incorrect.
Look at Peter Ward's case to see how it works.
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