Constructive Dismissal query
Discussion
Was informed my off-licence shop was closing some weeks ago, ( by telephone 23/4/07) , officially in person by senior management 25/4/07. The shop actually closed at 8pm on 28/4/07 and my staff and I were transferred to a nearby shop ( 2 miles away) - I was instructed to box up all the stock and clear the old shop by end of May , transferring the stock to the new shop which was to carry on trading as normal. The previous manager left a few days earlier and staff of the other shop left 28/4/07...which is why we were hastily transferred.
Originally they gave me and my staff redundacy letters for the old shop - but then said that we'd been given suitable alternative employment and so redundancy no longer applied. I f we left we'd have to give 4 weeks notice! My staff used to live round the corner of the old shop and don't drive - so it's not that suitable for them, as they have to get Taxis or walk......no bus service after 9pm...we shut at 10pm!
I live approx 8 miles away, and have been ferrying them to and from work - I had the district manager with me all day today, trying to sort a suitable rota within the labour hours allowed( without me having to ferry them back and forth) - and we're straight into the holiday season with all staff taking consecutive weeks off. ie. 1 off each week or 2 week period.
I'm now the new manager there - got tricked into it - massively angry - and need some advice on constructive dismissal.
I was thinking of just applying for new jobs, give the requisite 4 weeks notice - once I'd got a new job- then leave. But I want out now, and can't bear to work for a group that has schemed, manipulated and lied to me.
Your thoughts please
Originally they gave me and my staff redundacy letters for the old shop - but then said that we'd been given suitable alternative employment and so redundancy no longer applied. I f we left we'd have to give 4 weeks notice! My staff used to live round the corner of the old shop and don't drive - so it's not that suitable for them, as they have to get Taxis or walk......no bus service after 9pm...we shut at 10pm!
I live approx 8 miles away, and have been ferrying them to and from work - I had the district manager with me all day today, trying to sort a suitable rota within the labour hours allowed( without me having to ferry them back and forth) - and we're straight into the holiday season with all staff taking consecutive weeks off. ie. 1 off each week or 2 week period.
I'm now the new manager there - got tricked into it - massively angry - and need some advice on constructive dismissal.
I was thinking of just applying for new jobs, give the requisite 4 weeks notice - once I'd got a new job- then leave. But I want out now, and can't bear to work for a group that has schemed, manipulated and lied to me.
Your thoughts please
I'm no expert at this stuff - just I've been studying it for the last year. Unless there's a union or some form of collective agreement your employer has the duty to consult you prior to making you redundant. As you said the employer said it was no longer redundancy and offered alternative employment. I guess the question is whether it's "reasonable" and whether or not you had a mobility clause in your contract to go work in other locations.
Becoming a new manager would lead to different terms and conditions and i'm assuming they differ from your previous job - so it's not an identical match and could effectively become a new employment contract resulting in the previous contract becoming void due to the unilateral variation of your terms and conditions. However, if you signed something consenting to the changes this argument won't hold up.
How long have you been working there and how exactly were you tricked into becoming a manager?
The above may be completely incorrect and I haven't got my statutes with me at the moment - but i'd recommend some legal advice regarding your position and whether you're still performing the job you were initially employed to perform.
Becoming a new manager would lead to different terms and conditions and i'm assuming they differ from your previous job - so it's not an identical match and could effectively become a new employment contract resulting in the previous contract becoming void due to the unilateral variation of your terms and conditions. However, if you signed something consenting to the changes this argument won't hold up.
How long have you been working there and how exactly were you tricked into becoming a manager?
The above may be completely incorrect and I haven't got my statutes with me at the moment - but i'd recommend some legal advice regarding your position and whether you're still performing the job you were initially employed to perform.
Edited by g4ry13 on Thursday 7th June 02:54
An employee in a normal course of employment can be expected to travel to a new place of work that is a reasonable distance form the old. I would suggest that 8 miles is well within a reasonable distance to relocate your work to.
Your change of duties, shop worker to manager and then you not liking it - ask to go back to shop work, talk about the problems. Im sure your role has not changed so much to be contructive dismissal. It has to be pretty major changes to be force you to walk.
ie you now told to work as an underground sewer cleaner, your wages have dropped, the circumstances you have been put in are so unbearable that no reasonable person would put up with it.
I would forget the distance thing - it does sound reasonable. If your role has changed then negotiate and express your unhappyness, folllow the firms greivance procedure, give your required notice and leave on amicable terms.
Dont start arguing for other employees, worry about yourself. Dont just quit. 4 weeks notice is not much. Ask to go earlier by mutual agreement.
Your change of duties, shop worker to manager and then you not liking it - ask to go back to shop work, talk about the problems. Im sure your role has not changed so much to be contructive dismissal. It has to be pretty major changes to be force you to walk.
ie you now told to work as an underground sewer cleaner, your wages have dropped, the circumstances you have been put in are so unbearable that no reasonable person would put up with it.
I would forget the distance thing - it does sound reasonable. If your role has changed then negotiate and express your unhappyness, folllow the firms greivance procedure, give your required notice and leave on amicable terms.
Dont start arguing for other employees, worry about yourself. Dont just quit. 4 weeks notice is not much. Ask to go earlier by mutual agreement.
Edited by superlightr on Thursday 7th June 09:34
Agree with Superlightr. A constructive dismissal is a repudiation of the contract by the employer. The changes must go to the heart of the contract and not be accepted by the individual. This isn't the real issue however in this case. Employers can put up a defence agaisnt claims of constructive dismissal and the defence is that the changes were required as a result of a legitimate business reorganisation. I'm afraid that unless you can show that the changes were introduced more to disadvantage you than for the good of the business you don't have much hope in going legal.
You may feel exploited at having been made the boss, but I'd do it for a couple of years, it'll look good on your CV, give you loads of experience and hopefully enable you to surf into a better job with a different outfit later
You may feel exploited at having been made the boss, but I'd do it for a couple of years, it'll look good on your CV, give you loads of experience and hopefully enable you to surf into a better job with a different outfit later
Edited by Jasper Gilder on Thursday 7th June 10:39
condor said:
Was informed my off-licence shop was closing some weeks ago, ( by telephone 23/4/07) , officially in person by senior management 25/4/07. The shop actually closed at 8pm on 28/4/07 and my staff and I were transferred to a nearby shop ( 2 miles away) - I was instructed to box up all the stock and clear the old shop by end of May , transferring the stock to the new shop which was to carry on trading as normal. The previous manager left a few days earlier and staff of the other shop left 28/4/07...which is why we were hastily transferred.
Originally they gave me and my staff redundacy letters for the old shop - but then said that we'd been given suitable alternative employment and so redundancy no longer applied. I f we left we'd have to give 4 weeks notice! My staff used to live round the corner of the old shop and don't drive - so it's not that suitable for them, as they have to get Taxis or walk......no bus service after 9pm...we shut at 10pm!
I live approx 8 miles away, and have been ferrying them to and from work - I had the district manager with me all day today, trying to sort a suitable rota within the labour hours allowed( without me having to ferry them back and forth) - and we're straight into the holiday season with all staff taking consecutive weeks off. ie. 1 off each week or 2 week period.
I'm now the new manager there - got tricked into it - massively angry - and need some advice on constructive dismissal.
I was thinking of just applying for new jobs, give the requisite 4 weeks notice - once I'd got a new job- then leave. But I want out now, and can't bear to work for a group that has schemed, manipulated and lied to me.
Your thoughts please
Without any more detail than above then on the face of it the company have looked to follow the redundancy procedures ok. It is still a redundancy situation when they relocate you. In the main redundancy either leads to dismissal or redeployment in alternative employment. Originally they gave me and my staff redundacy letters for the old shop - but then said that we'd been given suitable alternative employment and so redundancy no longer applied. I f we left we'd have to give 4 weeks notice! My staff used to live round the corner of the old shop and don't drive - so it's not that suitable for them, as they have to get Taxis or walk......no bus service after 9pm...we shut at 10pm!
I live approx 8 miles away, and have been ferrying them to and from work - I had the district manager with me all day today, trying to sort a suitable rota within the labour hours allowed( without me having to ferry them back and forth) - and we're straight into the holiday season with all staff taking consecutive weeks off. ie. 1 off each week or 2 week period.
I'm now the new manager there - got tricked into it - massively angry - and need some advice on constructive dismissal.
I was thinking of just applying for new jobs, give the requisite 4 weeks notice - once I'd got a new job- then leave. But I want out now, and can't bear to work for a group that has schemed, manipulated and lied to me.
Your thoughts please
What is deemed as 'suitable' alternative employment is not necessarily strictly defined as it depends on case.
Of course, you don't necessarily have to take up the offer, however if it goes to tribunal and the alternative offer is deemed to be 'suitable' then more than likely there will be no case to go forward with. If you are deemed as having 'unreasonably' refused an offer of suitable alternative employment then you may forfeit the right to a redundancy payment.
What is suitable depends on things such as pay, loss of status, loss of benefits, location of work, general terms and conditions, job prospects and job content.
IMO, performing the same role on the same money at a place that is only 8 miles away seems 'suitable' to me (assuming, which you shouldn't, that there are no suitable positions at locations closer than this).
Thanks for the replies - I think the 'constructive dismissal' option was wishful thinking on my part. I'd like to walk away without serving the required 4 weeks notice.
The being 'tricked' part - I had temporarily agreed to be the dps ( designated premises supervisor - liquor licence type authority needed to sell alcohol ) of both shops - was only when they'd got my signature on the forms that the switch of shops happenned. From a well run shop which I managed for 12 years, I'm now in one that needs a lot of hard work putting in for less pay.
The basic pay is the same but I used to get quarterly 20% bonuses at the old shop - which I won't get for approx a year at the new one.
My focus will be on getting another job asap
The being 'tricked' part - I had temporarily agreed to be the dps ( designated premises supervisor - liquor licence type authority needed to sell alcohol ) of both shops - was only when they'd got my signature on the forms that the switch of shops happenned. From a well run shop which I managed for 12 years, I'm now in one that needs a lot of hard work putting in for less pay.
The basic pay is the same but I used to get quarterly 20% bonuses at the old shop - which I won't get for approx a year at the new one.
My focus will be on getting another job asap
SIR MP said:
Could you not negotiate with your employer a guaranteed bonus for a fixed period while the shop gets up to speed, or has it gone too far?
Why should you be financially disadvantaged because of the change,if not then tell them you will walk
The trouble with a Bonus, though, is that it is not something you automatically receive (hence its name). So although condor is disadvantaged by the fact she won't be getting it now, it's not something she has a right to, making it a sticky wicket.Why should you be financially disadvantaged because of the change,if not then tell them you will walk
The best to hope for is a pay rise in order to stay, rather than negotiating a "guaranteed bonus", if you see what I mean.
That's right - bonus payments, in this case, are a reward for exceeding budgeted sales performance, and keeping labour costs low.
It's more a matter of bad timing re my shop shutting - Threshers were owned by Terra Firma ( private equity company run by Guy Hands) but in the last few days Threshers has been sold to some other private equity firm. My old shop's lease was up for renewal and they just didn't bother renewing it, because the company was up for sale.
Just filled in an application form for the local Sainsburys that I'll drop off later this evening.
It's more a matter of bad timing re my shop shutting - Threshers were owned by Terra Firma ( private equity company run by Guy Hands) but in the last few days Threshers has been sold to some other private equity firm. My old shop's lease was up for renewal and they just didn't bother renewing it, because the company was up for sale.
Just filled in an application form for the local Sainsburys that I'll drop off later this evening.
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