Policing creep - the rise of the flat-hatted brigade
Discussion
Proposals were reported yesterday to extend VOSA's powers.
A consultation document notes: "The Road Safety Act will amend the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 (RTOA) to give VOSA vehicle examiners equivalent powers to those already vested in the police to issue fixed penalty notices."
Under the proposals, if they find that a car has already been banned from the road - or believe the driver is likely to ignore the fixed penalty fine - they will have powers to immobilise the vehicle.
The proposals have fuelled concern about the growing numbers of uniformed civilian agencies being given powers that were once the preserve of the police. Edmund King of the RAC Foundation said: "Vulnerable motorists such as lone women are being flagged down by uniformed people who are not police. This dilution of powers makes it difficult for drivers to tell if they should or shouldn't stop when flagged down."
We have a growing army of uniformed, petty bureaucrats: decriminalised parking with private-sector parking wardens; on motorways HATOs have been given powers to direct traffic; now VOSA will be issuing fixed penalties.
How long before first HATO and then VOSA are given even more powers to be more officious? At least they won't get the power to book you for speeding ... oh look, there's another flying pig!
Streaky
A consultation document notes: "The Road Safety Act will amend the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 (RTOA) to give VOSA vehicle examiners equivalent powers to those already vested in the police to issue fixed penalty notices."
Under the proposals, if they find that a car has already been banned from the road - or believe the driver is likely to ignore the fixed penalty fine - they will have powers to immobilise the vehicle.
The proposals have fuelled concern about the growing numbers of uniformed civilian agencies being given powers that were once the preserve of the police. Edmund King of the RAC Foundation said: "Vulnerable motorists such as lone women are being flagged down by uniformed people who are not police. This dilution of powers makes it difficult for drivers to tell if they should or shouldn't stop when flagged down."
We have a growing army of uniformed, petty bureaucrats: decriminalised parking with private-sector parking wardens; on motorways HATOs have been given powers to direct traffic; now VOSA will be issuing fixed penalties.
How long before first HATO and then VOSA are given even more powers to be more officious? At least they won't get the power to book you for speeding ... oh look, there's another flying pig!
Streaky
It`s not cheap policing! Its actually saving money. And for once Iactually agree with it. Compare the "was" and "will be"
Was:
Vosa get the nod that a particular vehicle is unroadworthy
Vosa must arrange for police to stop said vehicle.
Vosa inspect vehicle and condemn it as unroadworthy.
Vosa ask cops to issue ticket.
Cops issue ticket.
Punter continues using vehicle.
Will be:
Vosa spot unroadworthy vehicle
Vosa stop vehicle
Vosa issue ticket.
If they consider that punter is likely to be a pisstaker, they can impound vehicle.
As you can see with the old way the cops were little more than secretaries, just there to write out the paperwork.
Was:
Vosa get the nod that a particular vehicle is unroadworthy
Vosa must arrange for police to stop said vehicle.
Vosa inspect vehicle and condemn it as unroadworthy.
Vosa ask cops to issue ticket.
Cops issue ticket.
Punter continues using vehicle.
Will be:
Vosa spot unroadworthy vehicle
Vosa stop vehicle
Vosa issue ticket.
If they consider that punter is likely to be a pisstaker, they can impound vehicle.
As you can see with the old way the cops were little more than secretaries, just there to write out the paperwork.
Towie said:
It`s not cheap policing! Its actually saving money. And for once Iactually agree with it. Compare the "was" and "will be"
Was:
Vosa get the nod that a particular vehicle is unroadworthy
Vosa must arrange for police to stop said vehicle.
Vosa inspect vehicle and condemn it as unroadworthy.
Vosa ask cops to issue ticket.
Cops issue ticket.
Punter continues using vehicle.
Will be:
Vosa spot unroadworthy vehicle
Vosa stop vehicle
Vosa issue ticket.
If they consider that punter is likely to be a pisstaker, they can impound vehicle.
As you can see with the old way the cops were little more than secretaries, just there to write out the paperwork.
I have to agree, more hands tackling the problem will make life easier.Was:
Vosa get the nod that a particular vehicle is unroadworthy
Vosa must arrange for police to stop said vehicle.
Vosa inspect vehicle and condemn it as unroadworthy.
Vosa ask cops to issue ticket.
Cops issue ticket.
Punter continues using vehicle.
Will be:
Vosa spot unroadworthy vehicle
Vosa stop vehicle
Vosa issue ticket.
If they consider that punter is likely to be a pisstaker, they can impound vehicle.
As you can see with the old way the cops were little more than secretaries, just there to write out the paperwork.
Unless you're into the habit of driving around in an unroadworthy shed then there's really nothing to worry about surely?
Sorry to disagree. but the roads should be policed by police, not someone who likes a uniform but isn't good enought to be a proper policeman. Police have to be trained to deal with public in all ways, these Hatos, Pcso, etc have not got what it takes imho. For once the RAC is spot on, both my wife and daughter are instructed to stop only for fully marked police cars, if it is a covert car which then lights up the grill etc with uniformed BIB to stay in the car until credentials are checked and be ready to dial 999 if in any doubt.
I am all for getting dangerous cars off the road, however some years ago on here I said when the HATOs were launched it was only a matter of time before they took over completly, some did not belive this will happen, it will. It is policing on the cheap, they don't have any of the terms and conditions police do, no good pension and certainly not the pay, so do you think they will be able to deal with everyone equally. not a chance
I am all for getting dangerous cars off the road, however some years ago on here I said when the HATOs were launched it was only a matter of time before they took over completly, some did not belive this will happen, it will. It is policing on the cheap, they don't have any of the terms and conditions police do, no good pension and certainly not the pay, so do you think they will be able to deal with everyone equally. not a chance
spaximus said:
Sorry to disagree. but the roads should be policed by police, not someone who likes a uniform but isn't good enought to be a proper policeman. Police have to be trained to deal with public in all ways, these Hatos, Pcso, etc have not got what it takes imho. For once the RAC is spot on, both my wife and daughter are instructed to stop only for fully marked police cars, if it is a covert car which then lights up the grill etc with uniformed BIB to stay in the car until credentials are checked and be ready to dial 999 if in any doubt.
I am all for getting dangerous cars off the road, however some years ago on here I said when the HATOs were launched it was only a matter of time before they took over completly, some did not belive this will happen, it will. It is policing on the cheap, they don't have any of the terms and conditions police do, no good pension and certainly not the pay, so do you think they will be able to deal with everyone equally. not a chance
In order for someone to dish out a fixed penalty or punishment of any sort then they will be trained appropriately, otherwise they wouldn't be allowed out to do this. I am all for getting dangerous cars off the road, however some years ago on here I said when the HATOs were launched it was only a matter of time before they took over completly, some did not belive this will happen, it will. It is policing on the cheap, they don't have any of the terms and conditions police do, no good pension and certainly not the pay, so do you think they will be able to deal with everyone equally. not a chance
spaximus said:
Sorry to disagree. but the roads should be policed by police, not someone who likes a uniform but isn't good enought to be a proper policeman. Police have to be trained to deal with public in all ways, these Hatos, Pcso, etc have not got what it takes imho. For once the RAC is spot on, both my wife and daughter are instructed to stop only for fully marked police cars, if it is a covert car which then lights up the grill etc with uniformed BIB to stay in the car until credentials are checked and be ready to dial 999 if in any doubt.
I am all for getting dangerous cars off the road, however some years ago on here I said when the HATOs were launched it was only a matter of time before they took over completly, some did not belive this will happen, it will. It is policing on the cheap, they don't have any of the terms and conditions police do, no good pension and certainly not the pay, so do you think they will be able to deal with everyone equally. not a chance
Where does it mention HATOs in the first posting? Pay attention! We are talking about VOSA here. These are the people who the police call on to decide whether a vehicle is roadworthy or not.I am all for getting dangerous cars off the road, however some years ago on here I said when the HATOs were launched it was only a matter of time before they took over completly, some did not belive this will happen, it will. It is policing on the cheap, they don't have any of the terms and conditions police do, no good pension and certainly not the pay, so do you think they will be able to deal with everyone equally. not a chance
I`m with you all the way on the point of HATOs being trafpol on the chap, but you are way off the mark here.
Towie said:
It`s not cheap policing! Its actually saving money. And for once Iactually agree with it. Compare the "was" and "will be"
Was:
Vosa get the nod that a particular vehicle is unroadworthy
Vosa must arrange for police to stop said vehicle.
Vosa inspect vehicle and condemn it as unroadworthy.
Vosa ask cops to issue ticket.
Cops issue ticket.
Punter continues using vehicle.
Will be:
Vosa spot unroadworthy vehicle
Vosa stop vehicle
Vosa issue ticket.
If they consider that punter is likely to be a pisstaker, they can impound vehicle.
As you can see with the old way the cops were little more than secretaries, just there to write out the paperwork.
I suggest a minor enhancement to this:Was:
Vosa get the nod that a particular vehicle is unroadworthy
Vosa must arrange for police to stop said vehicle.
Vosa inspect vehicle and condemn it as unroadworthy.
Vosa ask cops to issue ticket.
Cops issue ticket.
Punter continues using vehicle.
Will be:
Vosa spot unroadworthy vehicle
Vosa stop vehicle
Vosa issue ticket.
If they consider that punter is likely to be a pisstaker, they can impound vehicle.
As you can see with the old way the cops were little more than secretaries, just there to write out the paperwork.
Was:
MOP notices that a particular vehicle is unroadworthy
MOP must arrange for police to stop said vehicle.
Vosa inspect vehicle and condemn it as unroadworthy.
Vosa ask cops to issue ticket.
Cops issue ticket.
Punter continues using vehicle.
Will be:
MOP spots unroadworthy vehicle
MOP stops vehicle
MOP issues ticket.
If they consider that punter is likely to be a pisstaker, they can impound vehicle.
Doesn't that remove the middle-man, while ensuring even more unroadworthy vehicles are sorted?
spaximus said:
Sorry to disagree. but the roads should be policed by police, not someone who likes a uniform but isn't good enought to be a proper policeman.
How good do you have to be to enforce traffic law? spaximus said:
Police have to be trained to deal with public in all ways, these Hatos, Pcso, etc have not got what it takes imho.
Police have to deal all sorts of crime, from minor traffic offences to very serious and violent crime. In what way is a Police officer's ability to deal with voilent and serious crime relevant to enforcing traffic offences?spaximus said:
For once the RAC is spot on, both my wife and daughter are instructed to stop only for fully marked police cars,
Instructed? Who instructs your wife and daughter? Don't they think for themselves? spaximus said:
if it is a covert car which then lights up the grill etc with uniformed BIB to stay in the car until credentials are checked and be ready to dial 999 if in any doubt.
perfectly reasonable response but hardly relevant to the point of VOSA personnel having enforcement powers.spaximus said:
I am all for getting dangerous cars off the road, however some years ago on here I said when the HATOs were launched it was only a matter of time before they took over completly, some did not belive this will happen, it will. It is policing on the cheap, they don't have any of the terms and conditions police do, no good pension and certainly not the pay, so do you think they will be able to deal with everyone equally. not a chance
Do the Police, with their higher pay and fat pensions treat everyone equally? I see no reason why certain enforcement and other duties cannot be properly carried out by individuals who aren't fully fledged Police officers.
Edited by Zeeky on Saturday 9th June 15:49
In Response to those quoting my views,
My point isn't this particular move, it is the creeping shift from trained police officers enforcing the law and others. Whatever the new types are called, powers of police are being slowly transferred to others which in my view is wrong.
Now I conceed that with Vosa their technical knowledge is much better than some police and the aim to get unroadworthy vehicles of the road is a good aim however, there used to be only police who stopped cars in the way described, now we have so many the dangers to lone women inparticular is adding to the array of persons who may stop one good, I think not.
As for instructing my wife and daughter not to stop, yes they can think for themselves but only if furnished with all the facts, I make no apologies for that.
My point isn't this particular move, it is the creeping shift from trained police officers enforcing the law and others. Whatever the new types are called, powers of police are being slowly transferred to others which in my view is wrong.
Now I conceed that with Vosa their technical knowledge is much better than some police and the aim to get unroadworthy vehicles of the road is a good aim however, there used to be only police who stopped cars in the way described, now we have so many the dangers to lone women inparticular is adding to the array of persons who may stop one good, I think not.
As for instructing my wife and daughter not to stop, yes they can think for themselves but only if furnished with all the facts, I make no apologies for that.
Oh dear, how long before we have Mrs Miggins and her neighbour with a speed gun alowed to issue tickets, Mr Johns the local MoT tester allowed to issue prohibition notices and Mr Chav tyre fitter at Kwik Fuk allowed to issue fines for vehicles driven there with defective tyres ?
Ignoring the whole cost issue, it's so dangerous having a variety of people able to stop traffic and issue fines or notices. Seriously dangrous situation.
Ignoring the whole cost issue, it's so dangerous having a variety of people able to stop traffic and issue fines or notices. Seriously dangrous situation.
Busa_Rush said:
Oh dear, how long before we have Mrs Miggins and her neighbour with a speed gun alowed to issue tickets, Mr Johns the local MoT tester allowed to issue prohibition notices and Mr Chav tyre fitter at Kwik Fuk allowed to issue fines for vehicles driven there with defective tyres ?
How long?, forever as thats never going to happen. Greendubber said:
Busa_Rush said:
Oh dear, how long before we have Mrs Miggins and her neighbour with a speed gun alowed to issue tickets, Mr Johns the local MoT tester allowed to issue prohibition notices and Mr Chav tyre fitter at Kwik Fuk allowed to issue fines for vehicles driven there with defective tyres ?
How long?, forever as thats never going to happen. May I butt in and say, with all due respect to the HATO members on the forum, comparing VOSA examiners and HATOs is comparing apples and oranges.
Not in the same league regarding knowledge, experience, training and, dare I say it professionalism.
Apart from the creeping insidiousness of civilianised enforcement I can't, in all honesty, object to the proposed increase in VOSA powers when just looking at that isolated issue.
The problem is thin end of wedges which I suspect is more what Streaky is pointing out. If not Streaks then sackcloth and ashes for a month accepted.
FiF
Not in the same league regarding knowledge, experience, training and, dare I say it professionalism.
Apart from the creeping insidiousness of civilianised enforcement I can't, in all honesty, object to the proposed increase in VOSA powers when just looking at that isolated issue.
The problem is thin end of wedges which I suspect is more what Streaky is pointing out. If not Streaks then sackcloth and ashes for a month accepted.
FiF
esselte said:
Greendubber said:
Busa_Rush said:
Oh dear, how long before we have Mrs Miggins and her neighbour with a speed gun alowed to issue tickets, Mr Johns the local MoT tester allowed to issue prohibition notices and Mr Chav tyre fitter at Kwik Fuk allowed to issue fines for vehicles driven there with defective tyres ?
How long?, forever as thats never going to happen. I still cannot see in principle why all law enforcement must be carried out by Police officers. We have VOSA, customs, tax inspectors, trading standards and probably many more.
The implication that if you are not a Police officer you cannot be as effective doesn't seem to be based on reason.
I do share the concern that in the relentless pursuit of efficiency Government may tolerate less-able people carrying out law enforcement duties but it does not folow that non-Police officers cannot be as good or even better at certain types of law enforcement.
Zeeky said:
esselte said:
Greendubber said:
Busa_Rush said:
Oh dear, how long before we have Mrs Miggins and her neighbour with a speed gun alowed to issue tickets, Mr Johns the local MoT tester allowed to issue prohibition notices and Mr Chav tyre fitter at Kwik Fuk allowed to issue fines for vehicles driven there with defective tyres ?
How long?, forever as thats never going to happen. I still cannot see in principle why all law enforcement must be carried out by Police officers. We have VOSA, customs, tax inspectors, trading standards and probably many more.
The implication that if you are not a Police officer you cannot be as effective doesn't seem to be based on reason.
I do share the concern that in the relentless pursuit of efficiency Government may tolerate less-able people carrying out law enforcement duties but it does not folow that non-Police officers cannot be as good or even better at certain types of law enforcement.
By that I mean the examples you give above are ones where in the main where an offence is detected, the authority in question, be it police / HMRC issues a report on summons, which is then dealt with by the criminal justice system.
There are some offences, where the law allows it to be dealt with summarily by means of a FPN, this can be accepted by the offender or not, it can be then be dealt with in court.
However basically it's a case whereby an individual enforcer reports an offence and the judicail system and punishment is dealt with completely separately.
Where people have concern is with the civilianised enforcement is put into the hands of people who, in the opinion of many and has been proven, cannot be trusted to act in a responsible, legal and equitable manner.
For example local authority parking attendants acting outside the law and very badly, many many examples. Pressure on local PAs for ticket quotas resulting in dubious and illegal practices. CCTV enforcement of YBJ where it was quickly shown that the enforcers didn't actually understand the law as it is written. Enforcement of bus lanes. Enforcement of offences ignoring traffic signs when the signage itself is ambiguous and/or in default.
At this point somebody is bound to say, don't commit the offence and the LA won't get any money.
Let's just take one example in detail. When an area applies for civilianised enforcement of parking, afaik the area is inspected and the LA is given a list of non compliances which they must put right before going ahead. Faulty TROs, faulty signs, faulty road markings and so on.
Mostly the LAs just ignore this and just go ahead with the enforcing. However if the signage is in default how is the poor motorist to know what rules are to apply? The signs are the language of the road. It is unjust to expect one party to obey the letter of the law, when the other party can say, well I know it's not right but we tried, sort of, maybe, in the spirit, you know, near enough or not.
It's not a case of saying only plod can enforce properly. To me it's more a case of saying that enforcement should not take place where the individual enforcer or his immediate employer directly benefits from the fine revenue because that is when things go wrong.
If it hadn't gone wrong big time why did the Government go to the trouble of drafting legislation to deal with and control the bad behaviour of parking attendants?
Accepted there are big aspects and arguments about certain aspects of the way the FPN system operates in practice. Especially the way that in some cases it is made particularly difficult to fight a disputed FPN.
edited to correct footnote formatting
Edited by Flat in Fifth on Saturday 9th June 21:14
spaximus said:
Sorry to disagree. but the roads should be policed by police, not someone who likes a uniform but isn't good enought to be a proper policeman. Police have to be trained to deal with public in all ways, these Hatos, Pcso, etc have not got what it takes imho. For once the RAC is spot on, both my wife and daughter are instructed to stop only for fully marked police cars, if it is a covert car which then lights up the grill etc with uniformed BIB to stay in the car until credentials are checked and be ready to dial 999 if in any doubt.
I am all for getting dangerous cars off the road, however some years ago on here I said when the HATOs were launched it was only a matter of time before they took over completly, some did not belive this will happen, it will. It is policing on the cheap, they don't have any of the terms and conditions police do, no good pension and certainly not the pay, so do you think they will be able to deal with everyone equally. not a chance
How good is a traffic cop at dealing with rape?? Probably crap (in fact why send him/her on a rape or even a firearms course)I am all for getting dangerous cars off the road, however some years ago on here I said when the HATOs were launched it was only a matter of time before they took over completly, some did not belive this will happen, it will. It is policing on the cheap, they don't have any of the terms and conditions police do, no good pension and certainly not the pay, so do you think they will be able to deal with everyone equally. not a chance
How good is a traffic cop at dealing with burglary?? See above
The same probably applies to fighting at chucking out time as well
Bet their good at traffic law though, surely it is better to have a specialist than a jack of all trades, but why pay them over the odd's.
As a few of the old bib say i'm sh*t at fighting crime & i like to drive fast so i joined the motorway unit, good at it now. though.
Ps why do we have british transport police are the normal bib not up to it or are they just specialists in transport related policing?
I hope spaximus pays the fine for his partner/childs unwillingness to stop for someone in a position of authority but not necessarily the police, but just remember how many burglar's etc impersonate the police to rob old people.
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