Discussion
Looking for some advice here. A primary school has just been constructed in my area. This is on an unclassified road which previously was NSL. Now, they have erected lamp posts on both sides of the road for about 200 yards either side of the school entrance. Approaching this area are the usual signs warning you of a 20 mph limit when the normal flashing school warning signs are operating.
At the end of this section ( at each end) are NSL signs.
There are no other limit signs. Now, I always thought that if a rural road had street lighting then it would automatically become a 30 limit.
I E mailed our friendly Grampian Constabulary on their good looking website to enquire what the limit would be when the flashing lights are off, ie school shut. Is it 30 or 60?
The reply ( after 5 days, obviously due to an in depth examination of the area) was:
You should always take care when passing a school, and if the lights are NOT flashing then the road will be subject to... wait for it...... Either a 30 or an NSL !!!!!
Well, paint my bloody wagon...Grampians finest can't even give a straight answer to a simple question.
Oh and to compound it, when I tried to reply to the E mail I find that their system does not allow reply's.
So anyone out there know the status of this road? Please.
At the end of this section ( at each end) are NSL signs.
There are no other limit signs. Now, I always thought that if a rural road had street lighting then it would automatically become a 30 limit.
I E mailed our friendly Grampian Constabulary on their good looking website to enquire what the limit would be when the flashing lights are off, ie school shut. Is it 30 or 60?
The reply ( after 5 days, obviously due to an in depth examination of the area) was:
You should always take care when passing a school, and if the lights are NOT flashing then the road will be subject to... wait for it...... Either a 30 or an NSL !!!!!
Well, paint my bloody wagon...Grampians finest can't even give a straight answer to a simple question.
Oh and to compound it, when I tried to reply to the E mail I find that their system does not allow reply's.
So anyone out there know the status of this road? Please.
The ...... in the woodpile is the lights.
Are they considered to be street lighting of which it appears rthere is no set definition?.
Sect 81(1) Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 - it shall not be lawful to drive a motor vehicle on a 'restricted road' at a speed exceeding 30 mph.
Section 82(2) RTRA 84 - a 'restricted road' for the purposes of Sect 81 above, if there is provided a system of street lighting by means of lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart.
I understand that the authorities do not like short limits (under 1/2 mile)so it would seem to me to get round this small stretch between NSL's then an Order should be made destricting and then NSL signs erected at intervals on the lamp posts. I am sure Tvrgit will put me right.
The school flashing lights have no bearing on speed limit.
As stated a word with LA could help otjher motorists.
dvd
Are they considered to be street lighting of which it appears rthere is no set definition?.
Sect 81(1) Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 - it shall not be lawful to drive a motor vehicle on a 'restricted road' at a speed exceeding 30 mph.
Section 82(2) RTRA 84 - a 'restricted road' for the purposes of Sect 81 above, if there is provided a system of street lighting by means of lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart.
I understand that the authorities do not like short limits (under 1/2 mile)so it would seem to me to get round this small stretch between NSL's then an Order should be made destricting and then NSL signs erected at intervals on the lamp posts. I am sure Tvrgit will put me right.
The school flashing lights have no bearing on speed limit.
As stated a word with LA could help otjher motorists.
dvd
It's more difficult than it might first appear (isn't it always)
If the length of road is a classified road, ie an A-road (used to also mean B-road but that changed years ago I think) then the speed limit is automatically NSL, whether it's lit or not. So if the school is on an A road then the council have to make a specific Order under the Act to lower the limit to 30.
If the length of road is not an A-road, as the OP suggests, then it's automatically NSL until the day you put up a system of street lighting as DVD describes. As soon as the road is lit, it becomes a "restricted road" and automatically 30, all you have to do is put up signs, no need for an order.
The important thing is that it must be signed properly, ie there must be 30 signs when you enter and NSL when you leave.
Now, a 20mph limit needs an Order, even the "20mph when lights are flashing". If it has an Order then it is enforceable. If there is no Order then it is advisory and should be signed as such (for example green circle round the 20, not red). The articles and schedule to the Order should state unequivocally the speed limit which applies and when it applies - ie "while the associated system of signs and flashing beacons are operating and visible to drivers" for example.
Bored yet? We're nearly there! If, as the OP suggest, the only signs present say "20mph when lights flashing" then technically, when they are not flashing, there is no legal enforceable sign so NSL applies.
As DVD says, though, if NSL applies where there is a system of street lighting, then repeater roundels are required "regularly" throughout the restriction, to show that the road is NOT a 30 (which it can't be if there is no 24-hour applying sign present at the end).
If those "flashing 20" signs were only just within a pair of "30" roundels then it would be 20 when signs flashing, 30 otherwise. Simple.
As herewego said, it sounds like the LA have overlooked the need to put up 30s at the end. A LA who makes that kind of mistake (and there are many) might have also overlooked the need to make an Order to enforce the 20 limit too.
If the length of road is a classified road, ie an A-road (used to also mean B-road but that changed years ago I think) then the speed limit is automatically NSL, whether it's lit or not. So if the school is on an A road then the council have to make a specific Order under the Act to lower the limit to 30.
If the length of road is not an A-road, as the OP suggests, then it's automatically NSL until the day you put up a system of street lighting as DVD describes. As soon as the road is lit, it becomes a "restricted road" and automatically 30, all you have to do is put up signs, no need for an order.
The important thing is that it must be signed properly, ie there must be 30 signs when you enter and NSL when you leave.
Now, a 20mph limit needs an Order, even the "20mph when lights are flashing". If it has an Order then it is enforceable. If there is no Order then it is advisory and should be signed as such (for example green circle round the 20, not red). The articles and schedule to the Order should state unequivocally the speed limit which applies and when it applies - ie "while the associated system of signs and flashing beacons are operating and visible to drivers" for example.
Bored yet? We're nearly there! If, as the OP suggest, the only signs present say "20mph when lights flashing" then technically, when they are not flashing, there is no legal enforceable sign so NSL applies.
As DVD says, though, if NSL applies where there is a system of street lighting, then repeater roundels are required "regularly" throughout the restriction, to show that the road is NOT a 30 (which it can't be if there is no 24-hour applying sign present at the end).
If those "flashing 20" signs were only just within a pair of "30" roundels then it would be 20 when signs flashing, 30 otherwise. Simple.
As herewego said, it sounds like the LA have overlooked the need to put up 30s at the end. A LA who makes that kind of mistake (and there are many) might have also overlooked the need to make an Order to enforce the 20 limit too.
Edited by tvrgit on Sunday 10th June 17:06
aThanks guys for the input. Yes, I guess I should contact my LA on this. The thing is that I have no intention of "speeding" through this area anyway. Never really did prior to the School being built. It just makes me so bloody mad that councils can adopt this casual attitude to their responsibilities to all road users, this then can be compounded by plod using situations like this to nail innocent drivers.
Criminal charges should be able to be brought against LA's who are derelict in their responsibilities regarding road safety.
Criminal charges should be able to be brought against LA's who are derelict in their responsibilities regarding road safety.
Edited by hemibum on Sunday 10th June 22:40
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