3200 - valves decided to play with the pistons...
Discussion
hi folks
yesterday was a bit crap, driving to an italian car show and ironically i didn't make it there. a few miles away i suddenly lost all power and heard lots of nasty noises. stopped the car and towed it home. went out and got drunk!
today i started pulling it all apart. i thought the cambelt had snapped but alas it hadn't, what happened was that the pulley on the right hand side came off (well, the casting that holds in on sheared off). looks like fatigue has caused this as the pulley hadn't seized or anything. the belt is fine.
started to strip down the engine bay to get at the heads, havent gotten them off yet but on one side on one of the cam followers has shattered. can't believe this has happened and looking at the parts prices i'm thinking a 2nd hand engine might be the way forward and it is obviously a seriously unwelcome expense, but c'est la vie with italian cars eh??
anyone heard of these castings failing before?
cheers
steven
yesterday was a bit crap, driving to an italian car show and ironically i didn't make it there. a few miles away i suddenly lost all power and heard lots of nasty noises. stopped the car and towed it home. went out and got drunk!
today i started pulling it all apart. i thought the cambelt had snapped but alas it hadn't, what happened was that the pulley on the right hand side came off (well, the casting that holds in on sheared off). looks like fatigue has caused this as the pulley hadn't seized or anything. the belt is fine.
started to strip down the engine bay to get at the heads, havent gotten them off yet but on one side on one of the cam followers has shattered. can't believe this has happened and looking at the parts prices i'm thinking a 2nd hand engine might be the way forward and it is obviously a seriously unwelcome expense, but c'est la vie with italian cars eh??
anyone heard of these castings failing before?
cheers
steven
Very bad news Steven, I am really sorry to hear this.
This has moved me to sign up and make my first ever post on these forums. I have been a close follower of these forums for nearly 4 years now - from the time I was looking at buying the Maserati and all through the 3 1/2 years I have subsequently owned it.
Until recently my 3200GT ownership experience has been nothing but positive, but I unfortunately suffered exactly the same fate as Steven. Last August, I was overtaking some cars when there was a sudden noise of something banging along the bottom of the car, followed by the engine dying. I subsequently found out that the banging was caused by the same pulley casting that Steven describes - it had fallen off causing the cambelt to lose tension and subsequently break. The result was faily catastophic - 32 "S" shaped valves. Ouch! At that point I seriously regretted nor renewing my warranty that year!
I had the car taken to Autoshield in Manchester, who are good guys, and they stripped the cylinder heads and broke the bad news to me. I ended up getting a few quotes from them to rebuild the heads, fit secondhand heads or replace the engine. The costs were pretty horrific, so I phoned around a few places, and was eventually offered a decent price by Verdis to replace the knackered engine with a used engine. Unfortunately, for one reason or another, Verdis took 6 months to do the waork. To add insult to injury when it was completed we discovered that the Throttle Body DBW had failed. This not only added another £1500 to the price, but it took another 2 months to get hold of one. Double ouch!
Finally got the car back last week - 9 months after the "incident"! It's good to have it back and it is running really well. My experiences with Verdis have not been quite as positive as many of you on here, but in the end they have done a good job for a fair (but not cheap) price and on balance I would use them again.
Hopefully I can have a cheaper couple of years in the car as my budget for upgrading has been spent on repairing. I'm not too upset though, as I still love the car, and have managed to regain my confidence in it.
So, to cut a long and sorrowfull story short, I have heard of these castings failing before! Autoshield said it was the first time they had seen this. Not sure if I asked at Verdis. Although my car had a full service history I did not consider contacting Maserati as I was fairly sure they would not be interested in any representation that I made.
However it would seem that this is not quite the one off that I thought it was. Steven and I have suffered this, perhaps others have as well. Perhaps Troesma is right and Maserati should be contacted. If there is a design fault around this pulley then checks should be in place to inspect and repair them before others suffer a similar fate.
I would be interested to hear what people think.
This has moved me to sign up and make my first ever post on these forums. I have been a close follower of these forums for nearly 4 years now - from the time I was looking at buying the Maserati and all through the 3 1/2 years I have subsequently owned it.
Until recently my 3200GT ownership experience has been nothing but positive, but I unfortunately suffered exactly the same fate as Steven. Last August, I was overtaking some cars when there was a sudden noise of something banging along the bottom of the car, followed by the engine dying. I subsequently found out that the banging was caused by the same pulley casting that Steven describes - it had fallen off causing the cambelt to lose tension and subsequently break. The result was faily catastophic - 32 "S" shaped valves. Ouch! At that point I seriously regretted nor renewing my warranty that year!
I had the car taken to Autoshield in Manchester, who are good guys, and they stripped the cylinder heads and broke the bad news to me. I ended up getting a few quotes from them to rebuild the heads, fit secondhand heads or replace the engine. The costs were pretty horrific, so I phoned around a few places, and was eventually offered a decent price by Verdis to replace the knackered engine with a used engine. Unfortunately, for one reason or another, Verdis took 6 months to do the waork. To add insult to injury when it was completed we discovered that the Throttle Body DBW had failed. This not only added another £1500 to the price, but it took another 2 months to get hold of one. Double ouch!
Finally got the car back last week - 9 months after the "incident"! It's good to have it back and it is running really well. My experiences with Verdis have not been quite as positive as many of you on here, but in the end they have done a good job for a fair (but not cheap) price and on balance I would use them again.
Hopefully I can have a cheaper couple of years in the car as my budget for upgrading has been spent on repairing. I'm not too upset though, as I still love the car, and have managed to regain my confidence in it.
So, to cut a long and sorrowfull story short, I have heard of these castings failing before! Autoshield said it was the first time they had seen this. Not sure if I asked at Verdis. Although my car had a full service history I did not consider contacting Maserati as I was fairly sure they would not be interested in any representation that I made.
However it would seem that this is not quite the one off that I thought it was. Steven and I have suffered this, perhaps others have as well. Perhaps Troesma is right and Maserati should be contacted. If there is a design fault around this pulley then checks should be in place to inspect and repair them before others suffer a similar fate.
I would be interested to hear what people think.
Those are very shocking news. One engine blowing, possibly pot lock, but 2 blowing for the same reason... you could argue an unfortunate coincidence, but...
Maserati UK should be contacted, not least to give them the chance to inspect the damage (and possibly offer a fair solution to it, although not necessarily obliged.) Metal fatigue is something you cannot attribute to normal wear and tear, by it's own definition. Alas, there is a good chance they could provide a way out for you, if the worse has happened. The least thing they want is to have bad publicity.
Then, I've seen 3200s with 120+ K miles on the clock, working flawlessly. Therefore I believe it is a fair call to have them involved to see where the issue comes from.
In the end it is just a coupe of calls, and I would say worthy of your time.
Maserati UK should be contacted, not least to give them the chance to inspect the damage (and possibly offer a fair solution to it, although not necessarily obliged.) Metal fatigue is something you cannot attribute to normal wear and tear, by it's own definition. Alas, there is a good chance they could provide a way out for you, if the worse has happened. The least thing they want is to have bad publicity.
Then, I've seen 3200s with 120+ K miles on the clock, working flawlessly. Therefore I believe it is a fair call to have them involved to see where the issue comes from.
In the end it is just a coupe of calls, and I would say worthy of your time.
Hi folks
Many thanks for the help (and Colin thanks for the email).
My car just ticked over 42k miles. As mentioned, this is not a wear and tear or servicable item - it's a casting that holds the pulley wheel and it should not have failed. Bearing in mind though, the car is well out of warranty (7 years old) so can't see Maserati offering much assistance. I wouldn't even know where to start but certainly wouldn't want this to happen to anyone else!
I'll post photos later.
Cheers
Steven
Many thanks for the help (and Colin thanks for the email).
My car just ticked over 42k miles. As mentioned, this is not a wear and tear or servicable item - it's a casting that holds the pulley wheel and it should not have failed. Bearing in mind though, the car is well out of warranty (7 years old) so can't see Maserati offering much assistance. I wouldn't even know where to start but certainly wouldn't want this to happen to anyone else!
I'll post photos later.
Cheers
Steven
Steven ,
I don't think that manufacturer's warranty matters here - the item is not an item that is shown as needing replacement at any interval - so one would believe the item does not degrade , however if it does it should be advised to be replaced at certain intervals , if not there clearly is a quality or fatigue issue here - quite odd that 2 cars are suffering - I would raise the issue with maserati uk and see what the feed back is ,
cheers
I don't think that manufacturer's warranty matters here - the item is not an item that is shown as needing replacement at any interval - so one would believe the item does not degrade , however if it does it should be advised to be replaced at certain intervals , if not there clearly is a quality or fatigue issue here - quite odd that 2 cars are suffering - I would raise the issue with maserati uk and see what the feed back is ,
cheers
sjp63, I wish I was kidding! The silver lining on that cloud (well maybe greyish at best) was that was 9 months in which I didn't have to pay for the repair.
My car had done about 49k, on a 2001 plate. I had always considered the engine to be very strong though, I had no previous issues with it and it always felt and sounded in excellent nick. My replacement engine has apparently done under 12,000 miles, which is an improvement.
To reiterate what Steven says this is not a replaceable or serviceable component - it is actually a part of the casting that has sheared off, causing the cambelt to lose tension followed by the inevitable catastrophic meeting of valves and pistons.
Bearing in mind what you have all said here, I will probably put together a letter and fire it off to Maserati UK. Steven, we may want to co-ordinate our efforts here - either write a joint letter, or write one each referring to each other.
My car had done about 49k, on a 2001 plate. I had always considered the engine to be very strong though, I had no previous issues with it and it always felt and sounded in excellent nick. My replacement engine has apparently done under 12,000 miles, which is an improvement.
To reiterate what Steven says this is not a replaceable or serviceable component - it is actually a part of the casting that has sheared off, causing the cambelt to lose tension followed by the inevitable catastrophic meeting of valves and pistons.
Bearing in mind what you have all said here, I will probably put together a letter and fire it off to Maserati UK. Steven, we may want to co-ordinate our efforts here - either write a joint letter, or write one each referring to each other.
Wondered if both cars already had a cambelt change before the failure?
Is it possible that incorrect fitting (over tightening?) or handling of the part might be a contributory factor. Not suggestting that any blame is attached to servicing agents. Maybe just something to be treated with kid gloves....especially if there is an inherent weakness in the casting.
Is it possible that incorrect fitting (over tightening?) or handling of the part might be a contributory factor. Not suggestting that any blame is attached to servicing agents. Maybe just something to be treated with kid gloves....especially if there is an inherent weakness in the casting.
rs48635 said:
Wondered if both cars already had a cambelt change before the failure?
Is it possible that incorrect fitting (over tightening?) or handling of the part might be a contributory factor.
My thoughts exactly Rob but firstly, commiserations to both of you for the expensive failures.Is it possible that incorrect fitting (over tightening?) or handling of the part might be a contributory factor.
The carrier casting that failed is under compression not tension and therefore transmits a constant load from the pulley being pushed into the belt or rather the belt pushing the pulley. This loading is very light with engine off but increases with engine oil pressure (as the adjuster on the other side of the engine is hydraulic) and to some extent with temperature.
If the carrier has been struck or levered by some idiot, then a weakness could have been created setting up a stress point eventually leading to inevitable failure. Steven has posted a good photo on another forum here which does suggest a sideways stress fracture (see diagonal line through fracture) that is 90 degrees from where cambelt loading takes place. This seems consistent with abuse but I am not a metallurgist and could be wrong.
I believe Southampton University have a metallurgy dept that could be worth contacting if Steven is interested at this late stage.
hope this helps
sjp63 said:
9 months to fix it - you have to be kidding!!
That's what I thought. Why the delay? Not nine months solid work to fix the car as you could build a car from scratch in less time, so was it time taken to source parts? I remember my BMW was once off the road for five weeks after a minor accident because they couldn't get a 'window stop', whatever that is. In the end they said they had to source one from an identical car that had been written off! This was an official BMW repairer!!Anyway, back to the Maser... I guess it would be wise to consider this part a service item in future. Maybe change it every time the cambelt is done.
Sorry for the delay, I have studied the picture as best as possible and i am not sure of why it has failed. As the point has made, previously by nigelo and others, this could to be something to do with abuse when fitting the timing belt or having other repair such as idler roller replacement. I am a little unsure as to why the bracket is different colours, could be the picture could be another reason.
When fitting the timing belt you must be exceptionally careful, the belt is relatively tight when fitting it to the car and unfortunately temptation to force the something to get the belt is possibly dangerous and terminal for the engine. I do have a couple of questions though; 1) did you notice any strange noises prior to the engine failing? 2) When was the timing belt replaced and by whom.
Subject to the answer of these questions i would suggest talking to Maserati UK, the call could save you some money.
If you need any advice just contact me
When fitting the timing belt you must be exceptionally careful, the belt is relatively tight when fitting it to the car and unfortunately temptation to force the something to get the belt is possibly dangerous and terminal for the engine. I do have a couple of questions though; 1) did you notice any strange noises prior to the engine failing? 2) When was the timing belt replaced and by whom.
Subject to the answer of these questions i would suggest talking to Maserati UK, the call could save you some money.
If you need any advice just contact me
wicked1 said:
Sorry for the delay, I have studied the picture as best as possible and i am not sure of why it has failed. As the point has made, previously by nigelo and others, this could to be something to do with abuse when fitting the timing belt or having other repair such as idler roller replacement. I am a little unsure as to why the bracket is different colours, could be the picture could be another reason.
When fitting the timing belt you must be exceptionally careful, the belt is relatively tight when fitting it to the car and unfortunately temptation to force the something to get the belt is possibly dangerous and terminal for the engine. I do have a couple of questions though; 1) did you notice any strange noises prior to the engine failing? 2) When was the timing belt replaced and by whom.
Subject to the answer of these questions i would suggest talking to Maserati UK, the call could save you some money.
If you need any advice just contact me
Is this something you have seen a lot of, I have been told that belt failure is extremely rare on these cars.....when maintained correctly of course. Speaking to my local Maserati guy, he said he has never seen a failure in all his years of working on them. I have just had mine replace by Meridian Modena in the New Forest. I thought this would give me peace of mine.....I am not so sure now.When fitting the timing belt you must be exceptionally careful, the belt is relatively tight when fitting it to the car and unfortunately temptation to force the something to get the belt is possibly dangerous and terminal for the engine. I do have a couple of questions though; 1) did you notice any strange noises prior to the engine failing? 2) When was the timing belt replaced and by whom.
Subject to the answer of these questions i would suggest talking to Maserati UK, the call could save you some money.
If you need any advice just contact me
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