964 C2 or late Carrera 3.2?

[HAB]

Now that I've sold the 944S2(great car btw),I'm close to fulfilling that lifelong dream of 911 ownership. Initially I was looking at Carrera 3.2's as my budget was around £12k,but I'm actually gonna have a little more to play with (~£17K) and it looks like that's moving into half decent 964 territory?

I've been doing a bit of research, and I've come up with a few potential 964 specific pitfalls, namely:

Distributor drive belts can snap.
Cylinder head oil leaks.
Dual mass flywheel issues.
Brake caliper plate lift.

And thats about it as far as my (limited) research can find. Am I missing anything?

Am I right in assuming that most of these would have been rectified by previous owners of cherished examples? I've driven a Carrera 3.2 and though I loved it, it did feel a bit 'vintage'. I like the idea of the slightly more modern 964 (though I've never driven one) and is there a huge difference in feel between the two models?

Sorry for the glut of questions,but any advice/ownership experience would be very helpful.

Cheers J.

Edited by HAB on Wednesday 13th June 23:12

[rs48635]

Both are good, but subtle differences might be significant to you.

3.2 Carrera
No PAS - so heavy to park (my wife claims) - great steering feel ( i claim)
Cheap to service - half the cost of 964
Easy to self maintain - buy the bentley manual

964
Has PAS and aircon and ABS, probably heating that works and a bunch of other "modern aids". Feels more civilised to drive.
MOst serious niggles (as you listed) shoudl be sorted on well looked after cars.
Underrated and undervalued, so maybe a bargain.

Don't forget the 964 distributor vent/drive belt kit, this can snap a crankshaft!. See recent 911 & Porsche world magazine, for experiances of journo9 Jonny Tipler.

As with every 911, buy the best one you can afford.

[zcacogp]

HAB said:

Distributor drive belts can snap.
Cylinder head oil leaks.
Dual mass flywheel issues.
Brake caliper plate lift.

HAB,

Knowing nothing about these cars, my comments on the above would be that caliper plate lift is exactly the same problem as you may have had on your S2, and is cured in exactly the same way (they are the same calipers, I think.)

And the distributer drive belt is a real issue (the article on a smashed crank is a salutory read), but changing the belt can be neither expensive nor difficult, surely?

(If you are looking for other problems, I understand that rust is a biggie. But as I said, I know nothing, so could be wrong.)

Happy hunting.


Oli.

[Crimp a Length]

Both nice cars.
One's a bit more for the purist (in others words more of a tw@t to drive and heater doesn't work)
One is a bit more modern (better heater.....oh and the brakes work)
Which ever way you're flag blows mate.

i'd probably opt for a 3.2 but with the Turbo body "supersport"

[Harry Flashman]

964. Going to a 3.2 from a 944 S2 will seem like going backwards in terms of usability and modernity.

I run a 968 - and when I tested it against a 964 and 3.2, the 911s felt more archaic, but the 964 at least had some creature comforts.

[clubsport]

3.2 all the way.....who cares about creature comforts, character and running costs win that one......a nice late 3.2 in good condition could almost be an investment, they will be very sought after going forward.

[Harry Flashman]

Actually, I think the 964 is the most underpriced of the range at the moment...

[PH5121]

I went from a 944 S2 to a 964 C2. I never considered a 3.2 Carrera to be honest, the 964 has all the mod cons of the 944S2, in a package with decent brakes, power steering and a wonderful exhaust note (the 944 was a bit bland).
I have a 1990 car and I have had no mechanical problems in the 5 years I have owned it.
The biggest culture shock, but no suprise, was that the 964 did not feel anywhere close to the sure footedness of the 944 when pressing on across country A roads. This was helped alot when I had it lowered and some negative camber was set into the suspension, this gave the car marvellous steering feel.
I love driving my 964, but I don't have chance to drive it much so it always feels like a special occasion when I take it out.
The 964 may lack some of the purity of the earlier car, but it is a nice compromise of classic 911 looks with more modern features as mentioned in previous posts.

[gregorio!]

Imo the 964 feels noticeably faster than the 3.2
I think the 964 problems are blown way out of proportion.
Here's my experience of your list:

Distributor drive belts can snap - to be safe i had my belt changed for about £50
Cylinder head oil leaks - a design problem based on a metal/metal seal, if its really bad it usually requires a top end rebuild to fix. If its a little weep, well oil is cheap
Dual mass flywheel issues - many people change to an RS clutch/fly when the clutch needs doing, factor about £1k to £1.5k all in.
Brake caliper plate lift - caliper rebuild was about 2.5 hours labour
Distributer vent job is a 10 min DIY, the kit costs about £10. If the car you get has not had the kit fitted, then the distributer belt is worth changing to be safe.

I'd try and find one thats had an engine rebuild and fresh suspension. You'll only want to do the suspension if you buy a standard one.

[clubsport]

Harry Flashman said:

Actually, I think the 964 is the most underpriced of the range at the moment...

Buy one then !

[1231]

964 would be my choice, but I have one and love it.

gregorio! said:

I'd try and find one thats had an engine rebuild and fresh suspension. You'll only want to do the suspension if you buy a standard one.

This is bang on the money, the engine should have been rebuilt within 25K miles (should be good for another 100K miles), clutch also, suspension should have been worked on as with wishbones, brakes etc as they are now leggy / old cars. A fully stamped up service book means nothing - a fat pad of bills showing 1.5 - 3K of spend per year for the last five or so years should indicate one that has been looked after and not neglected.

The differential in bog standard servicing costs is nothing compared to the relative potential depreciation / big job costs between models so don't factor this in.

Buy the best looked after model you can find and expect to pay circa 1.5 K a year on keeping it nice. Also get / do an airbox mod which makes a lovely engine note just fabulous.

[ukwill]

1231 said:

964 would be my choice, but I have one and love it.

gregorio! said:

I'd try and find one thats had an engine rebuild and fresh suspension. You'll only want to do the suspension if you buy a standard one.

This is bang on the money, the engine should have been rebuilt within 25K miles (should be good for another 100K miles), clutch also, suspension should have been worked on as with wishbones, brakes etc as they are now leggy / old cars. A fully stamped up service book means nothing - a fat pad of bills showing 1.5 - 3K of spend per year for the last five or so years should indicate one that has been looked after and not neglected.

The differential in bog standard servicing costs is nothing compared to the relative potential depreciation / big job costs between models so don't factor this in.

Buy the best looked after model you can find and expect to pay circa 1.5 K a year on keeping it nice. Also get / do an airbox mod which makes a lovely engine note just fabulous.

My bills came to £17k in 4yrs...

Yes, a lot of that was due to me getting the track bug, but still - these things can cost $$$.

[rubystone]

964 is more civilised, that's for sure. 3.2 is a much closer to the older cars...whether that's a good or bad thing depends on what you want the car for. 964 is also faster and more of a useable proposition for every day.

[R5Gttgaz]

Just looking through Adrian Streathers 964 book, the dizzy rebuild looks a bit of a bitch to do. Quotes of parts flying everywhere and three hands would be a bonus, makes it sound like a job for the pro's. Not to mention untold damage if you messed up with the timing.

I'm looking forward to 964 ownership, some posts on this thread make a refreshing read.

[HAB]

Thanks for all the input folks-much appreciated.

I was guessing that a lot of the potential problems were the usual worst case scenarios,and would have been rectified by the PO's
The plate lift is something that can affect the S2 as well,though I never had any issues with this.

PH5121 said:

The biggest culture shock, but no suprise, was that the 964 did not feel anywhere close to the sure footedness of the 944 when pressing on across country A roads. This was helped alot when I had it lowered and some negative camber was set into the suspension, this gave the car marvellous steering feel.

This is interesting,and to be honest I'm also prepared for the fact that the 964 (or I!) wouldn't be as confident as the S2 which is one hell of an easy car to drive quickly.Part of the appeal of the 911 is the fact its going to be a whole new experience that'll take some time to master. When I get the 911 it'll be a long termer, and it would be used as a second 'fun' car for trackdays, holidays abroad, and trips up to the Highlands.

I've even got a set of genuine teardrop mirrors that I was going to fit to the S2,and they just won't look right on a Carrera 3.2!

Edited by HAB on Thursday 14th June 13:46

[Harry Flashman]

clubsport said:

Harry Flashman said:

Actually, I think the 964 is the most underpriced of the range at the moment...

Buy one then !

One day maybe I will (although I will head back to TVRs first!)

My 968 cab is staying until the end of summer; I am a convertible person, and will never own another hard top - and a good 964 cab is a hell of a lot dearer than my mint 968 cab. Given that my cars are just toys and thus I never spend more than £12-14k, 964 cab is unlikely for the moment. A TVR Griffith, on the other hand...

[Kibosh]

Deffo 964. Overall the most cost effective, liveable with, purist's Porsche you can buy. An SC feels MUCH older by comparison.

[gregorio!]

HAB said:

PH5121 said:

The biggest culture shock, but no suprise, was that the 964 did not feel anywhere close to the sure footedness of the 944 when pressing on across country A roads. This was helped alot when I had it lowered and some negative camber was set into the suspension, this gave the car marvellous steering feel.

This is interesting...[/footnote]

I surprised by this. In my experience of a 944S2 on original suspension and a 964 on original suspension, the 944 was softer & the 964 generated more grip.

Of course geometry, tyre wear etc. could be the reasons. But i wonder if the 944 you drove had newer suspension on it?

[Ranger 6]

Harry Flashman said:

.....and a good 964 cab is a hell of a lot dearer than my mint 968 cab. Given that my cars are just toys and thus I never spend more than £12-14k, 964 cab is unlikely for the moment.

I think if you look carefully there are bargains to be found. I've had my car three weeks and £14k was the top of my budget. 1990 C4 Cab with 65k miles was achieveable within that to compare with £10k 944s and £14k 968s....

[Harry Flashman]

Ranger 6 said:

Harry Flashman said:

.....and a good 964 cab is a hell of a lot dearer than my mint 968 cab. Given that my cars are just toys and thus I never spend more than £12-14k, 964 cab is unlikely for the moment.

I think if you look carefully there are bargains to be found. I've had my car three weeks and £14k was the top of my budget. 1990 C4 Cab with 65k miles was achieveable within that to compare with £10k 944s and £14k 968s....

Chap - I think you did really well; £14k 964 cabs I saw were hounds, and likely to need serious bills. My 968 cab, which was not far off that price, looks and feels like it just rolled out of the showroom, and has bills for literally thousands spent on it. Not concours, but near as dammit. 964s at similar prices were nowhere near the condition...