RE: Big Badge Bodge?
Tuesday 20th November 2001
Big Badge Bodge?
Consolidation on the cards?
Discussion
No way!!!
Aston Martin should in no way be degraded by such a move! It would be sacrilegious to betray Aston Martin's heritage in this way, and would de-value the brand and cars overnight.
I am a huge fan of Aston Martin and their cars, and Aston Martin employees, owners and enthusiasts the world over will I'm sure agree with me, that something has to be done to stop this ludicrous plan going ahead!
Aston Martin should in no way be degraded by such a move! It would be sacrilegious to betray Aston Martin's heritage in this way, and would de-value the brand and cars overnight.
I am a huge fan of Aston Martin and their cars, and Aston Martin employees, owners and enthusiasts the world over will I'm sure agree with me, that something has to be done to stop this ludicrous plan going ahead!
Agree with you Pip, although my link is more with Jaguar than Aston Martin. Both would lose their heritage overnight. I don't see much problem with Land Rover - different sort of vehicle and unlikely to lose reputation by sharing PAG parts bin (presumably engines plus minor components).
If Ford could get their act together and capitalise on the extremely good everyday cars they manufacture there would surely be no need to destroy the prestige marques. And you have to wonder if there's any point in continuing the costly F1 embarrassment any longer.
If Ford could get their act together and capitalise on the extremely good everyday cars they manufacture there would surely be no need to destroy the prestige marques. And you have to wonder if there's any point in continuing the costly F1 embarrassment any longer.
quote:I might be persuaded to have a DB7 Vantage with some further factory fettling, I guess. But only if they begged me to.
I take it you'd not have one then Jon?
Ok, ok, I'll admit it - I'd love to see the Aston badge on a car I owned. But if I had a DB7 I'd always have a nagging question in my head as to whether or not I had a "real" Aston.
The Vanquish is lacking soul, because it's the starter model. If you look at the V8 Coupe and earlier V8 Astons, and then compare it to the final evolution of the V8 cars, the V8 Vantage Driving Dynamics, what a difference! I'm waiting for a Vanquish Vantage - that should set the world alight. Imagine that V12 with twin-superchargers 
Back to the thread though, Ford are looking in the wrong direction with the brands they are trying to merge. Jaguar would be better off strengthening links with Volvo - Volvo get a bit more flourish to their styling, and Jaguar get improved safety and build quality. Land Rover are better off being linked to the Mercury brand - Land Rover is there to increase Ford's off-road presence in the US, so a Mercury 4x4 like the Lexus RS or BMW X5, is probably a better idea than an Aston Martin or Jaguar 4x4.
Ford, if you're listening, please DO NOT destroy decades of heritage belonging to the British marques.
I'm an Aston Martin fan, so it's a bit controversial when I say I think Ford did a good thing with the DB7. It finally got Aston Martin in the 'black' for the first time in its history, allowing them to continue producing the phenomenal Vantage cars that we love. But Ford shouldn't undo all that good work, by forsaking Aston Martin's history of producing the finest performance cars in the world.
Back to the thread though, Ford are looking in the wrong direction with the brands they are trying to merge. Jaguar would be better off strengthening links with Volvo - Volvo get a bit more flourish to their styling, and Jaguar get improved safety and build quality. Land Rover are better off being linked to the Mercury brand - Land Rover is there to increase Ford's off-road presence in the US, so a Mercury 4x4 like the Lexus RS or BMW X5, is probably a better idea than an Aston Martin or Jaguar 4x4.
Ford, if you're listening, please DO NOT destroy decades of heritage belonging to the British marques.
I'm an Aston Martin fan, so it's a bit controversial when I say I think Ford did a good thing with the DB7. It finally got Aston Martin in the 'black' for the first time in its history, allowing them to continue producing the phenomenal Vantage cars that we love. But Ford shouldn't undo all that good work, by forsaking Aston Martin's history of producing the finest performance cars in the world.
Back to the thread though, Ford are looking in the wrong direction with the brands they are trying to merge. Jaguar would be better off strengthening links with Volvo - Volvo get a bit more flourish to their styling, and Jaguar get improved safety and build quality
Are you Nuts Jag-Volvo , there is nothing wrong with Jag build quality or safety, Jag and Volvo are so far apart in image and type of vehicle
If a company had to buy Aston Martin and Jaguar, why oh why did it have to be Ford? Ford are great at making bread and butter cars, but have no idea of the importance of heritage and prestige.
I drive a Rover 600, most would say its not a true Rover because of the Honda content, then I would the X-Type isn't a true Jaguar for the same reason, my point is that it seems that Ford can get away with blue murder in this country and no one minds. Why can't Ford be like Fiat? Fiat knows that no one can make Ferrari like Ferrari, Ford on the other hand feel they can make a better Aston Martin than Aston, they can't, give me a V8 Vantage over a Vanquish anytime.
I drive a Rover 600, most would say its not a true Rover because of the Honda content, then I would the X-Type isn't a true Jaguar for the same reason, my point is that it seems that Ford can get away with blue murder in this country and no one minds. Why can't Ford be like Fiat? Fiat knows that no one can make Ferrari like Ferrari, Ford on the other hand feel they can make a better Aston Martin than Aston, they can't, give me a V8 Vantage over a Vanquish anytime.
Yeah, but, Numlock .... surely the point is that the brand image can't survive the use of a common platform. If my AM's engine is four Focus engines bolted together, then that might be great for the Focus's image, but the same can't really be said for the AM ... "I paid for an AM and got the Ford parts bin". I know plenty of Jag owners who call their saloons Granadas.
Quote:
"If you as a consumer want cheap, reliable, good quality cars then live with it. You end up with a far better end product when Ford sinks say £100M into developing a common engine architecture like the Duratec V6 (Aston's V12, Jag's V6's with different heads) than you would if you were to split the money and each company to go their own way."
B*ll*x! Aston Martin have built 'expensive', very reliable and extremely good quality cars for years. They're not a mass production marque - they're a specialist manufacturer, crafting masterpieces of automotive technology.
Common engine & component design may produce cheaper engines, but not necessarily better engines. The Duratec engine rolls down a production line manned by robots and underpaid people that don't give a sh*t about the engines they produce.
You should see the Aston Martin works where they produce the V8 engines. Each engine is hand-built, by a craftsman that puts his name to that engine when it is completed. If there is a problem with that engine, chances are that the guy whose name is on the engine will be the guy who looks after it and restores it. The same applies not only to engines, but to all the other elements of the V8 cars and traditional Astons - the workers are passionate about their cars and quality control is second to none.
You just can't expect a company like Aston Martin to just abandon all its values and work ethics, and fall into the mass-production market. Even though the Vanquish uses a common engine design, it will still undergo far more rigorous quality control before being fitted to an Aston Martin, and much of the rest of the car is just as painstakingly assembled. That's the main thing about Aston Martins, they are greater than the sum of their parts - it's not the components themselves that matter, so much as the work & the passion that has gone into building and finishing the car, and the whole aura that surrounds an Aston Martin.
"If you as a consumer want cheap, reliable, good quality cars then live with it. You end up with a far better end product when Ford sinks say £100M into developing a common engine architecture like the Duratec V6 (Aston's V12, Jag's V6's with different heads) than you would if you were to split the money and each company to go their own way."
B*ll*x! Aston Martin have built 'expensive', very reliable and extremely good quality cars for years. They're not a mass production marque - they're a specialist manufacturer, crafting masterpieces of automotive technology.
Common engine & component design may produce cheaper engines, but not necessarily better engines. The Duratec engine rolls down a production line manned by robots and underpaid people that don't give a sh*t about the engines they produce.
You should see the Aston Martin works where they produce the V8 engines. Each engine is hand-built, by a craftsman that puts his name to that engine when it is completed. If there is a problem with that engine, chances are that the guy whose name is on the engine will be the guy who looks after it and restores it. The same applies not only to engines, but to all the other elements of the V8 cars and traditional Astons - the workers are passionate about their cars and quality control is second to none.
You just can't expect a company like Aston Martin to just abandon all its values and work ethics, and fall into the mass-production market. Even though the Vanquish uses a common engine design, it will still undergo far more rigorous quality control before being fitted to an Aston Martin, and much of the rest of the car is just as painstakingly assembled. That's the main thing about Aston Martins, they are greater than the sum of their parts - it's not the components themselves that matter, so much as the work & the passion that has gone into building and finishing the car, and the whole aura that surrounds an Aston Martin.
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Again if I spent £100K on a car I don't want Fiesta switch gear, but if Ford can find the right compromise and Aston, Land Rover and Jaguar are still going in 2050 then good luck to them.
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so who do you think supplied the switch gear before Ford took over Aston
Again if I spent £100K on a car I don't want Fiesta switch gear, but if Ford can find the right compromise and Aston, Land Rover and Jaguar are still going in 2050 then good luck to them.
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so who do you think supplied the switch gear before Ford took over Aston
Hi
I drove a new Aston DB7 Vantage on Friday and have never been so dissapointed.
I don't know what I expected but it seemed that is didn't have the equipment levels (no cruise, no remote hi-fi, no height adjustment on seat, no headroom, couldn't see half the warning lights on the dash etc.) to make it as a luxury car. Neither did it have the excitement to cut it as a performance car.
The V12 sounded nice and pulled well but an over long manual gear lever, remoteness throught the wheel at speed and a general detachment from the road made it about half as fun as my Griff.
I'm not knocking Aston - I'm 32 years old and maybe I just don't "get" these cars but I could not imagine spending £95k on a DB7.
In the day I'm a Marketing Manager for an automotive company and feel qualified to comment on the Ford PAG thing. They spent a great deal of money to buy the Premier Group companies and certainly did not get a great deal of assets/technology/production expertise/etc. All they really bought (with Aston especially) was heritage and breeding and a world renowned quality brand. I do not believe Ford are stupid enough to dilute the effect of this brand with lower quality models - it needs to remain a flagship for executive performance vehicles in order to pioneer new developments before they trickle down onto everyday models.
All IMHO naturally!
cheers
Marco
I drove a new Aston DB7 Vantage on Friday and have never been so dissapointed.
I don't know what I expected but it seemed that is didn't have the equipment levels (no cruise, no remote hi-fi, no height adjustment on seat, no headroom, couldn't see half the warning lights on the dash etc.) to make it as a luxury car. Neither did it have the excitement to cut it as a performance car.
The V12 sounded nice and pulled well but an over long manual gear lever, remoteness throught the wheel at speed and a general detachment from the road made it about half as fun as my Griff.
I'm not knocking Aston - I'm 32 years old and maybe I just don't "get" these cars but I could not imagine spending £95k on a DB7.
In the day I'm a Marketing Manager for an automotive company and feel qualified to comment on the Ford PAG thing. They spent a great deal of money to buy the Premier Group companies and certainly did not get a great deal of assets/technology/production expertise/etc. All they really bought (with Aston especially) was heritage and breeding and a world renowned quality brand. I do not believe Ford are stupid enough to dilute the effect of this brand with lower quality models - it needs to remain a flagship for executive performance vehicles in order to pioneer new developments before they trickle down onto everyday models.
All IMHO naturally!
cheers
Marco
I never said that hand-built cars are necessarily high quality just because they are hand-built. I stated that Aston Martin specifically were high quality, some of which is attributable to being hand-built, but all of which is down to the pride taken by Aston Martin's employees in their work.
I'm not saying TVR aren't proud of their work, but they don't have the level of expertise that Aston Martin do, nor the budget. It's harsh to knock TVR on build quality now anyway, they are vastly improved over past cars, mainly 'cos they abandoned the kit market. The last bad car they had was the early Cerbera 4.2s, and they ironed out those problems within a year, but unfortunately the harm had been done by then.
And Jag ain't so great on build quality and reliability - the residuals reflect that.
I'm not saying TVR aren't proud of their work, but they don't have the level of expertise that Aston Martin do, nor the budget. It's harsh to knock TVR on build quality now anyway, they are vastly improved over past cars, mainly 'cos they abandoned the kit market. The last bad car they had was the early Cerbera 4.2s, and they ironed out those problems within a year, but unfortunately the harm had been done by then.
And Jag ain't so great on build quality and reliability - the residuals reflect that.
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