Question for BiB Trafpol or similar internet experts!

[thunderbelmont]

I have been flashed at a fagpaper over 70 in my Merc Sprinter on the A14.

Fair cop with a GATSO if the 2-seater Mercedes was a van. It's not.

It's a former Ambulance service driver training vehicle, has window in the rear, and four fixed rear seats with belts. Thus, it's a pukka Dual Purpose vehicle.

However, when I bought it, I had to change the vehicle type from "Ambulance", and was advised by a person at the local DVLA office that it would be a panel van.

I found out that it should be a Dual Purpose Vehicle only recently when I was surfing the internurd for other things, and filled in the log-book to change it, but didn't send it off for some stupid reason.

Now, at 73mph, in a Dual Purpose vehicle, it's inside the ACPO guidelines, and whats more, my speedo said 70.

Apart from Rogered by the SCP, where do I stand.

Mis-informed regarding the vehicle type......
73 in a 70, though my speedo appears to be "variable" when compared to my RoadAngel - it's spot on some times, a little under others, and a little over now and then.

Plead insanity?

Rob.

[Dwight VanDriver]

Always a headache vehicles that have started out their life under one classification and altered to something else:

The 'Sprinter' started life as an Ambulance. Its classification would be a "Goods Vehicle" - a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage of goods (S 192 RTA 88) with a speed limit,max laden weight of under 7.5tonnes - 70MW, 60DC or 50 SC. (Schedule 6 RTRA 1984) or was it a Minibus. ???????????????

It has since been 'adapted' with the provisions of windows and permanent rear transverse seating.?????????????????

It can only be a Dual Purpose vehicle which is not defined under RTRA but is so at Reg 3, MV (Con and Use) Regs 1986 - a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage of both passengers and goods or burden of any description, being a vehicle the unladen weight if which DOES NOT EXCEED 2040 kgms AND which either (abbreviated):

is so constructed that driving power of engine can be transmitted to ALL wheels of the vehicle, or

a)has a rigid roof with or without sliding roof panel,
AND,
b)the area of the vehicle to the rear of the drivers seat must have at least one row of properly upholstered transverse seats (fixed or folding) capable of carry at least two persons,
AND
c) the distance between the steering wheel and the back rests of the rearmost seats must not be less thatn one third of the distance between the steering wheel and the rearmost part of the floor, AND
d) the side windows to the rear of the drivers seat must have an area of not less that 1850 sq.cms on either side and not less than 770 sq.cms at the rear.

If it can be classed as a DPV then speed limits are 70 MW, 70 DC and 60 SC by virtue of 70mph,60mph and 50mph (Temporary Speed Limit) Order, 1977 which was extended indefinitely in 1978 .

If it doesn't satisfy the above critera then can it be classed as a motor car?

"motor car" means a mechanically propelled vehicle, not being a motor cycle or an invalid carriage, which is constructed itself to carry a load or passengers and the weight of which unladen—
(a) if it is constructed solely for the carriage of passengers and their effects, is adapted to carry not more than seven passengers exclusive of the driver and is fitted with tyres of such type as may be specified in regulations made by the Secretary of State, does not exceed 3050 kilograms,
(b) if it is constructed or adapted for use for the conveyance of goods or burden of any description, does not exceed 3050 kilograms, or 3500 kilograms if the vehicle carries a container or containers for holding for the purposes of its propulsion any fuel which is wholly gaseous at 17.5 degrees Celsius under a pressure of 1.013 bar or plant and materials for producing such fuel,
(c) does not exceed 2540 kilograms in a case not falling within sub-paragraph (a) or (b) above, (S 185 RTA 1988)

if so then same speed limit as mentioned above for a DPV.

If it falls within two classifications then the lower speed limit will apply.

I guess as an Insurance for a definitive answer then advice from VOSA should be sought.

dvd

[Richard C]

The "Panel Van" DVLA classification is not relevant; you will find it printed alongside a heading " Taxation Class" The DPV definitions given by DVD are correct and complete. Had similar problem with Police officer in N Wales compounded by CPS who were unaware of DPV definition.

[thunderbelmont]

I had a chat with the Speed Camera Unit, and their data just shows "light goods vehicle", a screwed up address which DVLA got wrong, and they are happy to accept that it's a Dual Purpose Vehicle if I provide evidence as such - ie: the four seats in the rear with their belts, and the side window, due to DVLA screwing up the change of vehicle type when I switched it from being an Ambulance - which of course was never a goods vehicle because it didn't "exist" until it was registered AFTER "Bernard Collet" performed the conversion on the original vehicle.

Since I often carry out work for that force, I said "I can ask the guys at the Road Policing Unit to verify if you like..." to whit she answered, no, the written evidience should be OK.

Wipes brow.

Though holds breath until it's all sorted.

So, they're not all "YOUR GUILTY AND GONNA BURN IN HELL!" types.

[thunderbelmont]

Richard C said:

The "Panel Van" DVLA classification is not relevant; you will find it printed alongside a heading " Taxation Class" The DPV definitions given by DVD are correct and complete. Had similar problem with Police officer in N Wales compounded by CPS who were unaware of DPV definition.

It get's better.

I wrote to the SCU at Cambs, pointing out that the vehicle was in fact not a van, but fell into the classification of a Dual Purpose Vehicle, and they have written back with the C&U classification, stating seats/transverse etc..

Looking into it further, there are grey areas.

In the SVA documents from VOSA, it states in the the FOREWARD, under "Note2" that "A vehicle will only be considered a 'van' (and as such subject to the goods vehicle criteria) if it was designed and constructed principally for the carriage of goods..."

Since my vehicle was originally constructed as an AMBULANCE by messrs Bernard Collet in french France, and first registered as an AMBULANCE, it has never been a goods vehicle, nor a van. It is taxed PLG, not LGV1.

Therefore, NSL for the vehicle is 70mph on a dual carriageway.

The issue of seats in the rear, which are not transverse, but are fixed, do not fold away to allow more cargo space, and are properly constructed with padded base and back rest. There are vehicles on the market which are "Dual Purpose" and have seats in that manner. The LandRover gets around it by being 4wd.

A VOSA technician stated verbally that it was a grey area, if I had left the vehicle type set as an Ambulance, I would not have got a NIP. However, I may have been open to another offence.

However, fly in the ointment - they wish to inspect the vehicle, which is going to be tricky as the head gasket has gone, and it's in bits in my workshop.

I have to write to them again, once more returning the NIP un-signed.

I can see this dragging on.

And on....

I'm not sure I want to take it to court, simply because it's a grey area, and I'd rather sort it out in a sensible way with the BiB/SCU, because I did not "knowingly" commit an offence.