Mini LeMans at Cadwell Park

[25 JET]

Can anyone give me some advise as to where I can locate 20 Cars from for an Endurance Race at Cadwell Park to raise money for Charity, Iam Currently Talking to Caterhams, Lotus and the Mini Challenge series but need some more help if I cant get them.... The event goes like this.

The thoughts I have had is to select 20 teams which consist of 4 drivers, each team pays an entry fee for the event which consist of say 6 hours driving or 12 if it works out, the fee includes the hire of the cars and the circuit to cover the circuits overheads and expenditures, and the remaining money stays in a pot to which the first 3 teams that finish the event can select for there nominated charities.

I.E:

1st Team (1) 50% of the remianing funds go to team 1s nominated charity

2nd Team (2) 30% Etc

3rd Team (3) 20% Etc

I know alot of planning needs to go into such an event but i also know that I can sell the teams and raise alot of publicity not only for the charties concerened but for Caterham Etc aswell.

The lighting and staff needed for the event can be organised through volunteers and local companies that I have spoken to and all have promised there support if we can manage to put it together?

Who knows maybe this could be a yearly event which can only get better and better!!!

Having raced at British Championship levels in bike racing and currently sponsoring Cal Crutchlow who rides for the Rizla-Suzuki British Superbike Team I have a keen interest in motorsport and this event can generate alot of money for chosen charities.

Thanks in advance to any information you can help me with.


KD.

P.S Jonathan Palmer has Promised Cadwell Park for an Agreed Fee and the Event will be held sometime in September.

[Graham]

Sounds interesting but mighty expensive.. to pull off with only 20 cars..

I take it from your post that your looking for someone to be able to provide all the cars.. i think that'll prove tricky. You really need all the cars owned by one organisation to guarantee they are all the same and have spares... I'd have thought your best be there would be to try all the racing schools. Rockingham for example seemed to have plenty of elises.

Re-fueling issues are quite big, might be worth talking to the EERC about how they organise it for the Britcar 24 ( which incidentally is also in september)

It does sound interesting and Cadwell is one of my favourite tracks, although if your going to have a lot of lappery its a bit narrow on at least half of the circuit..

I'd be interested to hear how you get on and what your projected entry fees are... by way of comparison, Just the entry fee per team for the 6 hour Birkett relay at Silverstone is about 1K (you use your own cars in teams of 4-6 one car at a time) and they have about 50 teams on the national circuit. For a seat in a lower class car for the britcar 24 they start at about 5k per driver...

G

[25 JET]

Graham said:

Sounds interesting but mighty expensive.. to pull off with only 20 cars..

I take it from your post that your looking for someone to be able to provide all the cars.. i think that'll prove tricky. You really need all the cars owned by one organisation to guarantee they are all the same and have spares... I'd have thought your best be there would be to try all the racing schools. Rockingham for example seemed to have plenty of elises.

Re-fueling issues are quite big, might be worth talking to the EERC about how they organise it for the Britcar 24 ( which incidentally is also in september)

It does sound interesting and Cadwell is one of my favourite tracks, although if your going to have a lot of lappery its a bit narrow on at least half of the circuit..

I'd be interested to hear how you get on and what your projected entry fees are... by way of comparison, Just the entry fee per team for the 6 hour Birkett relay at Silverstone is about 1K (you use your own cars in teams of 4-6 one car at a time) and they have about 50 teams on the national circuit. For a seat in a lower class car for the britcar 24 they start at about 5k per driver...

G

Thanks for your comments Graham, I think the starting fee will be 2K but again this is only a guess as the cars havent been finalised yet, The whole point of this event is the raise money for the nominated charitys!! ive raised 25k over the last couple of years with other events i have organised but wanted to do something different this year. my brother works for Lotus and we might have an avenue there to go down but will find out more this week.
ill also give rockingham a ring tomorrow and EERC with the points youve raised.

Ill keep you Posted.

Karl.

[Dave Brand]

Have you talked to a club about running the event? Only MSA-recognised clubs are allowed to run race meetings! You need to get that sorted fairly quickly, as permits need to be applied for well in advance of the meeting.

Don't forget all the additional costs - on top of circuit hire you'll have to budget for rescue units, medics, recovery vehicles & myriad other items. Does the circuit hire deal include insurance?

Can you run a 12-hour race at Cadwell? As far as I know there's a curfew (6 PM, I think) which would make that impossible.

Then there's the problem of getting enough marshals! Cadwell is notoriously difficult to man up adequately. Are you going to attract enough marshals to run a meeting with just one race with a 20-car grid? I certainly wouldn't do it!

Edited by Dave Brand on Monday 2nd July 15:11

[Scuffers]

not wishing to poor water on the idea, but you do realise how much it costs to prep and run a car for multi-hour races?

as a guide, Britcar 24H for an Elise is in the region of £40K+ budget...(at cost)

I can't see it being less than half that for 12Hours, and an Elise is cheap to run compared to a lot of stuff...

[MrKipling43]

[25 JET]

Dave Brand said:

Have you talked to a club about running the event? Only MSA-recognised clubs are allowed to run race meetings! You need to get that sorted fairly quickly, as permits need to be applied for well in advance of the meeting.

Don't forget all the additional costs - on top of circuit hire you'll have to budget for rescue units, medics, recovery vehicles & myriad other items. Does the circuit hire deal include insurance?

Can you run a 12-hour race at Cadwell? As far as I know there's a curfew (6 PM, I think) which would make that impossible.

Then there's the problem of getting enough marshals! Cadwell is notoriously difficult to man up adequately. Are you going to attract enough marshals to run a meeting with just one race with a 20-car grid? I certainly wouldn't do it!

Edited by Dave Brand on Monday 2nd July 15:11

Thanks for your Positive Comments Dave Charity begins at home I guess! Oh and Track Evenings at Cadwell are often held after 6.00 pm. Just for the Record.

[Ian Sowman]

To be fair, all of Dave's points are completely valid and would need to be addressed before you could make any headway into organising the event.

That's not to say that the idea isn't a good and worthy one, but I happen to think that you would do well to raise much for charity from the event compared to the amount of effort (and money) that would have to be poured into it.

[SimonY]

Scuffers said:

not wishing to poor water on the idea, but you do realise how much it costs to prep and run a car for multi-hour races?

as a guide, Britcar 24H for an Elise is in the region of £40K+ budget...(at cost)

I can't see it being less than half that for 12Hours, and an Elise is cheap to run compared to a lot of stuff...

If you pick the right car it doesn't - My Caterham could easily run for 12 hours straight with suitable pads (not anything particularly special), fuel would not be a major cost and nothing else wears out. The refuelling is the major issue - I think you would have to have multiple cars per team like the Birkett because the refuelling without the right rigs would not be allowed and could be dangerous under time pressure.

[Piglet]

25 JET said:

Dave Brand said:

Have you talked to a club about running the event? Only MSA-recognised clubs are allowed to run race meetings! You need to get that sorted fairly quickly, as permits need to be applied for well in advance of the meeting.

Don't forget all the additional costs - on top of circuit hire you'll have to budget for rescue units, medics, recovery vehicles & myriad other items. Does the circuit hire deal include insurance?

Can you run a 12-hour race at Cadwell? As far as I know there's a curfew (6 PM, I think) which would make that impossible.

Then there's the problem of getting enough marshals! Cadwell is notoriously difficult to man up adequately. Are you going to attract enough marshals to run a meeting with just one race with a 20-car grid? I certainly wouldn't do it!

Edited by Dave Brand on Monday 2nd July 15:11

Thanks for your Positive Comments Dave Charity begins at home I guess! Oh and Track Evenings at Cadwell are often held after 6.00 pm. Just for the Record.

It's not about where Charity begins, it's about reality! Clearly your heart is in the right place but as Dave points out there are a number of issues that will cost you money and that you don't appear to have taken into account.

We could all say it's a cracking idea and then laugh when it all goes pear shaped on you couldn't we? Better to help you out now surely?

As Dave says you can't do anything until you have an Organising Club - who have you approached so far? MSV (JP) has MSVR have you spoken to JP about running your meeting?

My gut feel is that you don't have time to put this together for this September, even if you found an organising club and could fund it, I think you'd struggle to get sufficient marshals as most marshals will have worked out where they are when already.

I'd do your research this year and if the numbers work and its a go'er get it into the calendar of an organising club at the end of this year for next years availiability forms.

Good luck!

[Scuffers]

SimonY said:

Scuffers said:

not wishing to poor water on the idea, but you do realise how much it costs to prep and run a car for multi-hour races?

as a guide, Britcar 24H for an Elise is in the region of £40K+ budget...(at cost)

I can't see it being less than half that for 12Hours, and an Elise is cheap to run compared to a lot of stuff...

If you pick the right car it doesn't - My Caterham could easily run for 12 hours straight with suitable pads (not anything particularly special), fuel would not be a major cost and nothing else wears out. The refuelling is the major issue - I think you would have to have multiple cars per team like the Birkett because the refuelling without the right rigs would not be allowed and could be dangerous under time pressure.

LOL!

so, you have actually run it in a race environment for 12Hours then?
no? did not think so...

try talking to the guys that ran Caterhams in JCC or Britsports, they were only 100 mile races and the attrition rate was somewhat significant..... (as were the costs).

Look, I am not trying to Po Po the idea, but can we please be realistic about what this stuff costs?

then think about:

Fuel Riggs (has to be dry break unless you can get MSA approval for a Britcar 24H setup - that costs well over £200K to setup)
Tyres - you will not do 12 hours on a set
Engine - if you complete 12 hours, it will likely be in need of a complete re-build
brakes - you need BIG brakes to last 12+ hours
Marshals - for 12 hours you will need at least 2 sets

then there is a mirriad of other stuff that would need to be sorted, and to be honest, Cadwell is not really suitable as a cct to do this kind of thing... (Snett or Silverstone would be easier).

May I suggest you might want to talk to the guys that run the 2CV 24H, they do it about as cheaply as you can get....

[megamaniac]

As an organiser of the 2cv 24 hr i can tell you that refuelling with unmodified jerry cans is curently acceptable for national racing.Our cars are reasonably reliable and the pure race costs are around £2000 without wear and tear and rental being taken into account .Most drives cost circa £1000 however the highest cost is by far the circuit hire .
Msv can run their own races though so that shouldn't be a problem .
Marshals we always struggle with, even though we try to make sure they have a good time and don't feel taken for granted.Maybe one of the charities being the marshals fund may help to get support.And yes you will need more than 1 shift to do 12 hours .
12 hours around cadwell does sound rather hard work especially if you are doing long stints,also the pitlane is not very big to get 20 cars in and work on them.We would normally split an hour two driver race into two halves so that driver changes can take place in the safety of the paddock.
If you want to talk about what we do and the avenues we have explored over the years then give me a call karl (or call in)you know where to find me.
Paul

[SimonY]

Scuffers said:

SimonY said:

Scuffers said:

not wishing to poor water on the idea, but you do realise how much it costs to prep and run a car for multi-hour races?

as a guide, Britcar 24H for an Elise is in the region of £40K+ budget...(at cost)

I can't see it being less than half that for 12Hours, and an Elise is cheap to run compared to a lot of stuff...

If you pick the right car it doesn't - My Caterham could easily run for 12 hours straight with suitable pads (not anything particularly special), fuel would not be a major cost and nothing else wears out. The refuelling is the major issue - I think you would have to have multiple cars per team like the Birkett because the refuelling without the right rigs would not be allowed and could be dangerous under time pressure.

LOL!

so, you have actually run it in a race environment for 12Hours then?
no? did not think so...

try talking to the guys that ran Caterhams in JCC or Britsports, they were only 100 mile races and the attrition rate was somewhat significant..... (as were the costs).

Look, I am not trying to Po Po the idea, but can we please be realistic about what this stuff costs?

then think about:

Fuel Riggs (has to be dry break unless you can get MSA approval for a Britcar 24H setup - that costs well over £200K to setup)
Tyres - you will not do 12 hours on a set
Engine - if you complete 12 hours, it will likely be in need of a complete re-build
brakes - you need BIG brakes to last 12+ hours
Marshals - for 12 hours you will need at least 2 sets

then there is a mirriad of other stuff that would need to be sorted, and to be honest, Cadwell is not really suitable as a cct to do this kind of thing... (Snett or Silverstone would be easier).

May I suggest you might want to talk to the guys that run the 2CV 24H, they do it about as cheaply as you can get....

No I have no experience of running endurance events and neither do I claim to. My point is that if you choose the right car it may not have to be massively expensive. For example based on the areas you have highlighted my car (Roadsport) which is only 120bhp but is brisk around Cadwell:

Fuel: As discussed, the most difficult area
Tyres: Easily 12 hours on a set. They are all weather but track biased Avon CR500, we use approx 3 sets per season (including all testing)
Engine: Head refresh once a season is all that is needed (2500-3000miles ~40 hours), not bottom end rebuild. Uses almost no oil between changes.
Brakes: My race pads last easily in excess of 12 hours, I have never experienced a drop off in performance over 45min runs in the middle of summer. As an idea of the wear on mechanical components on these Caterhams I am just about to replace my disks after 3 1/2 seasons.
Marshals: I expect this would be difficult.

I accept there is a lot of difference between repeated 45 minute and 12 hour runs, and plenty of additional preparation and checks which would need to be performed, but keeping a lightweight and low powered Caterham running is hardly the same as a GT car on slicks. And after all those were the types of car which were suggested at the start and suit Cadwell best.

Edited by SimonY on Tuesday 3rd July 01:34

Edited by SimonY on Tuesday 3rd July 02:01

[Dave Brand]

25 JET said:

Thanks for your Positive Comments Dave Charity begins at home I guess! Oh and Track Evenings at Cadwell are often held after 6.00 pm. Just for the Record.

Charity or not, I live in the real world. You don't appear to realise just how big an undertaking running a race meeting is.

Your timescale of September this year is far too short to be realistic. To run even a small meeting you need getting on for a couple of hundred people. Here's a list (probably incomplete!):

Stewards, both club & MSA
Clerks of the Course
Radio/phone operators
Rescue crews
Recovery crews
Doctors
Scrutineers
Timekeepers
Marshals to cover paddock, startline, pits & on-circuit disciplines (observers, flag & incident)
For a long race you'll need a safety car, for which you need a suitably qualified driver.

Some of these people are paid, some are volunteers; in many cases, volunteer or not, their services only come at a cost to the organiser. Whichever category they fall into, most of them will organise their commitments at the start of the season - I would suggest that I am not alone in having had every weekend in September booked up by the end of March.

As for the curfew, yes, I know Cadwell runs track evenings, but as far as I know there is still a 6PM (maybe 6:30PM) curfew for race meetings; all I was suggesting was that, to save possible embarrassment, you check before you commit yourself to a 12 hour race!

Personally, I have no opinion on whether or not your idea is a good one - I'm just concerned that you don't appear to understand just how much work is involved in running a race meeting.

Edited by Dave Brand on Tuesday 3rd July 10:58

[Graham]

TO be fair if you contract with a club they will sort all of this

>>>
Stewards, both club & MSA
Clerks of the Course
Radio/phone operators
Rescue crews
Recovery crews
Doctors
Scrutineers
Timekeepers
Marshals to cover paddock, startline, pits & on-circuit disciplines (observers, flag & incident)
<<<


The TVR Car Club are hosting some races at Rockingham, and Its all being handled for them by the BRSCC, including taking the entires and entry fees. The club simply pay them any short fal from entry fees or recieve any surplus.

Talk to Drew at BRSCC and he'll give you some useful pointers.

Its certainly no easy task your looking at, and if you can pull it off and make some money for the charities you will be doing very well..


I dont think anyone here is trying to shout you down, its just there are a lot of battle hardened competitors here who have seen most things between us, and would hate you to get into an expensive problem


The comments on cars are very true. you may easily get much more than 12hrs of 20 min sprint racing no problem. but when you put all those 20 mins together in one go things start to fail. in a sprint race things like wheel bearings get hot then cool down. in an endurance race they get hot stay hot get hotter and fail. So its not a straight calculation its the same as comparing track day use to road use... use your scooby or whatever on the road and you'll get thousands of miles out of brake pads and tyres... take them to track and you can easily trash both in a few sessions.

once you've narrowed the cars down, i'd maybe speak to some of the guys that run similar cars in stuff like the eerc

cheers

G

Edited by Graham on Tuesday 3rd July 12:23

[Dave Brand]

Graham said:

TO be fair if you contract with a club they will sort all of

Agreed, but the point I was making is that it would be difficult to find people at such short notice.

[Piglet]

I agree with both Dave & Graham that a Club will take care of this but there is a difference between hiring a club to organise a whole event and buying space on an existing race day programme.

If a Club is running an event already, as with the BRSCC at Rockingham they are already taking the risk and effectively underwriting the costs so a race club comes along, buys a couple of slots and agrees to pay x amount (x probably being the cost of the day divided by 5 or 6).

That's different to this situation where the poster wants to have the entire event themselves and take the profit from it (albeit for Charity).

Yes a club will organise all of this but most club's calendars are full and as I said above I'm not sure, even if you can underwrite the cost, it is possible to put an event of this nature together in the timeframe available.

If there was lots of easy money to be made in running race meetings more people would be doing it...

[Graham]

Piglet said:

If a Club is running an event already, as with the BRSCC at Rockingham they are already taking the risk and effectively underwriting the costs so a race club comes along, buys a couple of slots and agrees to pay x amount (x probably being the cost of the day divided by 5 or 6).

The TVRCC event is part of the TVR 60th anniversary celebration. The TVRCC are Hiring the circuit for 2 days, track day / testing on sat and racing plus other event on th Sunday. The BRSCC are contracted to run the qualifying and racing for the club.. The circuit hire is loads ..



Dave is right I think to do it in september will be pushing it. The TVRCC have been talking to the BRSCC for about 6 months.. for the august event.

[Piglet]

Sorry Graham I stand corrected I thought there were only enough "allowed" race days at Rockingham to cover the SCSA events and nothing else.

[Graham]

Dunno, maybe its because its not a full day of racing and part of another event.

There's just the two qualifying sessions and 2 races, plus loads of other non race stuff..