Gaz Gold initial setup?
Discussion
You need to get the ride height correct first, not sure what this is (helpful arent I!) but the rear of the car sould be higher than the front.
For the rear shocks they want to be set up fully soft, then gradually adjust the clicks up to the desired setting. If you go and push down the rear end of a Tuscan racer you would be surprised at how soft it is. If you have the rear set really hard, the rear will just bounce across the road when corenering, it needs to have quite a lot of compliance.
For the rear shocks they want to be set up fully soft, then gradually adjust the clicks up to the desired setting. If you go and push down the rear end of a Tuscan racer you would be surprised at how soft it is. If you have the rear set really hard, the rear will just bounce across the road when corenering, it needs to have quite a lot of compliance.
JensenA said:
You need to get the ride height correct first, not sure what this is (helpful arent I!) but the rear of the car sould be higher than the front. . .
Interested to hear you say this as the tech who set mine up said the car should be level. Any constructive comments from the masses welcome 
It should definitely higher at the rear, under acceleration, the rear obviously squats down, so it needs to be higher to compensate for this. What you need to aim for ideally is to get the lower wishbone arms of each suspension corner as near as possible to parallel to the ground.
These are the measurements on mine, taken from the corner of each of the 4 jacking points - ie the point where the outrigger rail turns at 90 degrees back to the centre of the chassis.
Front = 134mm
Rear = 146mm
These are the measurements on mine, taken from the corner of each of the 4 jacking points - ie the point where the outrigger rail turns at 90 degrees back to the centre of the chassis.
Front = 134mm
Rear = 146mm
Its generally accepted that with driver up, the rear will end up lower than the front if you start off level and this does tend to make them understeer.
I tend to try and keep wishbones level and steering rods straight and that equates to 150mm front and 160mm rear from the corners of the outriggers as Mr Jensen suggests and 140/150mm would be the minimum height I would recomend
12 clicks from soft on the front and 18 clicks from soft on the rear is not a bad starting point.
I tend to try and keep wishbones level and steering rods straight and that equates to 150mm front and 160mm rear from the corners of the outriggers as Mr Jensen suggests and 140/150mm would be the minimum height I would recomend
12 clicks from soft on the front and 18 clicks from soft on the rear is not a bad starting point.
Edited by the gazman on Tuesday 3rd July 22:28
I've often wondered about this lower wishbone and ground thing, and every time i think the same thing : it's got to be one of the most widely quoted pieces of suspension set-up advice and yet largely misleading.
Why only concern ourselves with the lower wishbone? Doesn't the upper wishbone connect to the hub aswell? Are we to ignore the effect of the upper wshbone completely? What about the steering arms? They connect to the hub too .. do we ignore those aswell?
When should the lower wishbone be parallel with the ground? Fully laden? half laden? Empty? Under acceleration? braking? steady state?
Forget about the wishbones and their relationship with the ground, it's only ever vaguely relevant if the original designer wanted them parallel with the ground anyway (and then he/she'd have a specific set-up situation in mind). If he/she didn't design them to be parallel in a particular situation then why should you strive to achieve it? On the front of a cerb the ball joint and inner bush aren't even level in the wishbone, so if the wishbone is level the effective pivots then aren't.
Why set the rear of the car higher? The inner pivots of the rear wishbones are welded to the chassis higher than the fronts anyway, so even with a level outrigger you still have a higher centre of instantaneous rotation at the rear compared to the front. If you want to tame the rear of the car there's one argument (among many) for lowering the rear, not raising it..
Set the ride height to give you the characteristics you require .. the handling, the wheel travel and the look (yes to some people that's a high priority) .. put the compromise where *you* want it not where some mythical one-size-fits-all wishbone orientation says it should be.
I can just see people at home trying to set their ride heights to the nearest millimetre and then going and filling up with fuel, or adding two passengers and holiday luggage, where's your wishbones now?
makes me laugh it does.
Anyway, as you were ...
Why only concern ourselves with the lower wishbone? Doesn't the upper wishbone connect to the hub aswell? Are we to ignore the effect of the upper wshbone completely? What about the steering arms? They connect to the hub too .. do we ignore those aswell?
When should the lower wishbone be parallel with the ground? Fully laden? half laden? Empty? Under acceleration? braking? steady state?
Forget about the wishbones and their relationship with the ground, it's only ever vaguely relevant if the original designer wanted them parallel with the ground anyway (and then he/she'd have a specific set-up situation in mind). If he/she didn't design them to be parallel in a particular situation then why should you strive to achieve it? On the front of a cerb the ball joint and inner bush aren't even level in the wishbone, so if the wishbone is level the effective pivots then aren't.
Why set the rear of the car higher? The inner pivots of the rear wishbones are welded to the chassis higher than the fronts anyway, so even with a level outrigger you still have a higher centre of instantaneous rotation at the rear compared to the front. If you want to tame the rear of the car there's one argument (among many) for lowering the rear, not raising it..
Set the ride height to give you the characteristics you require .. the handling, the wheel travel and the look (yes to some people that's a high priority) .. put the compromise where *you* want it not where some mythical one-size-fits-all wishbone orientation says it should be.
I can just see people at home trying to set their ride heights to the nearest millimetre and then going and filling up with fuel, or adding two passengers and holiday luggage, where's your wishbones now?
makes me laugh it does.
Anyway, as you were ...
Jools - made you laugh did it ? Thats probably because you were drunk and bored at the time, and probably partaking in traditional methods of stress relief imported from Morocco and Afganistan?
Most people on here are learning about cerbs as we go along, gaining info from this forum, talking with our 'Indies' and other sources, and then we try and help other fellow users.
Now my Indie, Steve Howard, makes most of his living from setting cars up for the Race Track, and he said to me 'Try as near as possible to get the lower wishbones parallel to the ground' now that's his advice, could be different from yours, but it is tangible, advice, we can make use of it, Front = 134mm Rear = 146mm. We can now go and do something on our cars, we know what we are aiming for.
So what advice are you giving us?? Now I know there is a lot more to suspension set up than can be explained on this forum, but we need some kind of baseline to aim for because we aren't all technical gurus like you oh great one!
Scene: Jools, bandana round his head, John lennon specs on, cross legged on the floor, cape round his shoulders, Traditional moroccan Stress relieving device smouldering away in his hand.
Customer "Hey Jools, How should I set my suspension up"
"Hey man, just mess about a bit, you want it high you put it high. You want it low, hey man put it low, thats cool. You want your wishbones up? you want them down? or you want them level? hey just do it how you want it, till you like it man."
Cheers Jools, I'll just go and jack my car up right now and follow your words of wisdom, and get the Suspension set up as exactly as you advised, it'll be perfect.
Most people on here are learning about cerbs as we go along, gaining info from this forum, talking with our 'Indies' and other sources, and then we try and help other fellow users.
Now my Indie, Steve Howard, makes most of his living from setting cars up for the Race Track, and he said to me 'Try as near as possible to get the lower wishbones parallel to the ground' now that's his advice, could be different from yours, but it is tangible, advice, we can make use of it, Front = 134mm Rear = 146mm. We can now go and do something on our cars, we know what we are aiming for.
So what advice are you giving us?? Now I know there is a lot more to suspension set up than can be explained on this forum, but we need some kind of baseline to aim for because we aren't all technical gurus like you oh great one!
Scene: Jools, bandana round his head, John lennon specs on, cross legged on the floor, cape round his shoulders, Traditional moroccan Stress relieving device smouldering away in his hand.
Customer "Hey Jools, How should I set my suspension up"
"Hey man, just mess about a bit, you want it high you put it high. You want it low, hey man put it low, thats cool. You want your wishbones up? you want them down? or you want them level? hey just do it how you want it, till you like it man."
Cheers Jools, I'll just go and jack my car up right now and follow your words of wisdom, and get the Suspension set up as exactly as you advised, it'll be perfect.
That's not what i was saying, so stop that already! I'm saying don't treat the "wishbone parallel to the ground" as some holy grail of suspension set-up.
Set the suspension up to do what you want it to do!
If you're unsure of how to achieve that, ask advice about your specific circumstances and work with someone who is willing but don't take general advice about car set-up that is at best luckily close and at worst irrelevant.
I'm sure that in Steve Howard's many years of suspension tuning he hasn't just gone to a car, set the lower wishbones parallel to the ground, bounced on the corners to set the dampers and sent it out as a race winner/lap record holder... he most likely follows a plan of trimming and tweaking working with the driver to get the best performance out of the package. if that means some radical suspension angles and spring rates/damper setings so be it, if the car is fast and a lap record holder who's going to complain!?
Even though you're not going for lap records or race wins you should approach your car in the same tweak-and-trim way.
I'm not drunk or on drugs (cheap shot), this is sensible advice for people who care about their car and it's performance, not a one-size-fits-all solution .. you have adjustable suspension so what's the point of one-size-fits-all?
Set the suspension up to do what you want it to do!
If you're unsure of how to achieve that, ask advice about your specific circumstances and work with someone who is willing but don't take general advice about car set-up that is at best luckily close and at worst irrelevant.
I'm sure that in Steve Howard's many years of suspension tuning he hasn't just gone to a car, set the lower wishbones parallel to the ground, bounced on the corners to set the dampers and sent it out as a race winner/lap record holder... he most likely follows a plan of trimming and tweaking working with the driver to get the best performance out of the package. if that means some radical suspension angles and spring rates/damper setings so be it, if the car is fast and a lap record holder who's going to complain!?
Even though you're not going for lap records or race wins you should approach your car in the same tweak-and-trim way.
I'm not drunk or on drugs (cheap shot), this is sensible advice for people who care about their car and it's performance, not a one-size-fits-all solution .. you have adjustable suspension so what's the point of one-size-fits-all?
Well
I was told right from the start that most manufacturers have the effective roll centre of the car with level lower wishbones and that if you drop below the roll centres that stronger springs would be required to counter bump steer, having the steering rods out of level would also help cause the car to toe out in bump.
If you go round the various forums, it is generally accepted that "slamming" cars compromises handling.
I have to say that my three main gurus, namely Steve Howard, Steve Guglielmi and Dave Lyon all believe that this starting point of level wishbones and steering rods is a good place to begin.
I was told right from the start that most manufacturers have the effective roll centre of the car with level lower wishbones and that if you drop below the roll centres that stronger springs would be required to counter bump steer, having the steering rods out of level would also help cause the car to toe out in bump.
If you go round the various forums, it is generally accepted that "slamming" cars compromises handling.
I have to say that my three main gurus, namely Steve Howard, Steve Guglielmi and Dave Lyon all believe that this starting point of level wishbones and steering rods is a good place to begin.
Edited by the gazman on Wednesday 4th July 14:22
trackcar said:
That's not what i was saying, so stop that already! I'm saying don't treat the "wishbone parallel to the ground" as some holy grail of suspension set-up.
Set the suspension up to do what you want it to do!
If you're unsure of how to achieve that, ask advice about your specific circumstances and work with someone who is willing but don't take general advice about car set-up that is at best luckily close and at worst irrelevant.
I'm sure that in Steve Howard's many years of suspension tuning he hasn't just gone to a car, set the lower wishbones parallel to the ground, bounced on the corners to set the dampers and sent it out as a race winner/lap record holder... he most likely follows a plan of trimming and tweaking working with the driver to get the best performance out of the package. if that means some radical suspension angles and spring rates/damper setings so be it, if the car is fast and a lap record holder who's going to complain!?
Even though you're not going for lap records or race wins you should approach your car in the same tweak-and-trim way.
I'm not drunk or on drugs (cheap shot), this is sensible advice for people who care about their car and it's performance, not a one-size-fits-all solution .. you have adjustable suspension so what's the point of one-size-fits-all?
Totally agree, there is NO one-size fits all, only mass car producers work that way, and they're for the road.Set the suspension up to do what you want it to do!
If you're unsure of how to achieve that, ask advice about your specific circumstances and work with someone who is willing but don't take general advice about car set-up that is at best luckily close and at worst irrelevant.
I'm sure that in Steve Howard's many years of suspension tuning he hasn't just gone to a car, set the lower wishbones parallel to the ground, bounced on the corners to set the dampers and sent it out as a race winner/lap record holder... he most likely follows a plan of trimming and tweaking working with the driver to get the best performance out of the package. if that means some radical suspension angles and spring rates/damper setings so be it, if the car is fast and a lap record holder who's going to complain!?
Even though you're not going for lap records or race wins you should approach your car in the same tweak-and-trim way.
I'm not drunk or on drugs (cheap shot), this is sensible advice for people who care about their car and it's performance, not a one-size-fits-all solution .. you have adjustable suspension so what's the point of one-size-fits-all?
Key points are:
- Comfort
- High Speed Stability
- Low Speed manouvrability
- Shock reaction time
- Vibration Dampening
- Groove riding - negligable or too much!
- Each Corner Weight
- Verticle axis angles (movement and intertia)
- the list goes on...
Each to their own, but Joolz is spot on here, its a tweak and test and tweak test scenario, and everything from unsprung weight (your wheel type/weight and tyres) comes into play.... I remember when Joolz did my shocks/springs setup years ago, he asked, what are you after, I said "straight line performance" and "comfortable road use", plus with my 9J's with 275/40 on the rear and 255/35 on the front, I thought it was going to be a bitch for Joo to set up for me, but the moment I went to pick it up and drove off, it felt planted, so much so that I stuck with the setup and it suited trackdays and dragstrips and road use, not the best at any one of them, but a compromise that suited me perfectly and kept the car safe to use under all conditions.
What I'm basically saying is nothing fits all, and there should be multiple baselines taking everything into consideration, and you can work around the many flaws the cerbera chassis is presumed to have/or not....
Carbon Al's gaz-shock ripped apart very quick... he wasnt happy with that... the type of shock technology brings more dissadvantage/advantages to the table... take everything you read on forums with a pinch of salt, even my bullshit posts... unless I get two posts exactly the same lol
the gazman said:
Well
I was told right from the start that most manufacturers have the effective roll centre of the car with level lower wishbones and that if you drop below the roll centres that stronger springs would be required to counter bump steer, having the steering rods out of level would also help cause the car to toe out in bump.
If you go round the various forums, it is generally accepted that "slamming" cars compromises handling.
I have to say that my three main gurus, namely Steve Howard, Steve Guglielmi and Dave Lyon all believe that this starting point of level wishbones and steering rods is a good place to begin.
Sadly not quite typical .. if you have the lower wishbone level with the the ground, and the steering arm level with the ground, but a heavily inclined upper wishbone (as typical of an upper wishbone on a tvr relative to the lower) you're asking for trouble, in fact (mostly) in a TVR you won't find that situation so i don't know how you would go about setting that without massively moving the rack or suspension pick-ups, in any case it's undesirable. I was told right from the start that most manufacturers have the effective roll centre of the car with level lower wishbones and that if you drop below the roll centres that stronger springs would be required to counter bump steer, having the steering rods out of level would also help cause the car to toe out in bump.
If you go round the various forums, it is generally accepted that "slamming" cars compromises handling.
I have to say that my three main gurus, namely Steve Howard, Steve Guglielmi and Dave Lyon all believe that this starting point of level wishbones and steering rods is a good place to begin.
Edited by the gazman on Wednesday 4th July 14:22
It's sensible and common to have the steering arms describing an arc something approaching the intersection of the two suspension arms, with slight variations on that theme to engineer some bump-steer into the chassis depending on what you want to do with the handling. Eliminating bump-steer may not give you the handling you want .. if for instance you wanted a very pointy car on turn-in on the brakes you might engineer some bump toe-out into the chassis which is funnily enough what most TVRs have to make them responsive for drivers who are skilled enough to exploit that characteristic.
It's all about giving the car what it needs to make it the handling you require, and that is what i would be wanting if i was an enthusiastic TVR driver .. it's about shifting the bias closer to what you as an owner would want.
Now it's always going to be the case that you'll get people who aren't interested in the dynamics of their car and aren't willing to learn or do the work to make it a better car, but for those who are of a performance mind then make the car biased to you, not some general theme. I don't think that's a hard concept to grasp
and finally : bloody hell me n Ash on the same track
it is truly a new dawn I'm sorry I couldn't agree less with all this advanced geo on road cars, I just see it as inveterate fiddling, yes on Jonny W's car we did go to town and spent a day at Brands playing with settings and even pre-loading corners but that was a race car.
The fact are that all the cars that come my way have wheels pointing in all directions and up to 10 year old suspension that was dog-pooh in the first place and with sensible ride heights and geometry that takes into account the drivers needs, the jobs a goodun
I advocate settings that start at your average daily driver and get more agressive for the trackday stars and they have now been well tested.
As for Ash's side-swipe at Gaz, whilst they are not my only supplier now, I have got 800 kits on cars and they performed very well on several cars at the recent Ring outing including the Boss's car, so quoting one failure seems unfair to me.
I can point to failures I have found on all brands from Protech to Nitron to Ohlins but I don't bleat about it, I get them replaced or re-gassed in the case of Nitron and Ohlins.
The fact are that all the cars that come my way have wheels pointing in all directions and up to 10 year old suspension that was dog-pooh in the first place and with sensible ride heights and geometry that takes into account the drivers needs, the jobs a goodun
I advocate settings that start at your average daily driver and get more agressive for the trackday stars and they have now been well tested.
As for Ash's side-swipe at Gaz, whilst they are not my only supplier now, I have got 800 kits on cars and they performed very well on several cars at the recent Ring outing including the Boss's car, so quoting one failure seems unfair to me.
I can point to failures I have found on all brands from Protech to Nitron to Ohlins but I don't bleat about it, I get them replaced or re-gassed in the case of Nitron and Ohlins.
Edited by the gazman on Wednesday 4th July 17:53
Interesting as mine goes in next week fro a suspension change. Don't tell anyone but I've got Ferrari's setup, curtousy of... shush
Anyway - at the end of the day you need a setup you're comfortable with. I know from setting up the caterham for racing that borrowing someone elses setup doesn't always make it fast for your driver. It's getting the driver happy with the cars feel thats important.
BUT.
You need a good starting point and adjust from there. Have we reached a good decision from those in the know where this is?
Anyway - at the end of the day you need a setup you're comfortable with. I know from setting up the caterham for racing that borrowing someone elses setup doesn't always make it fast for your driver. It's getting the driver happy with the cars feel thats important.
BUT.
You need a good starting point and adjust from there. Have we reached a good decision from those in the know where this is?
the gazman said:
As for Ash's side-swipe at Gaz, whilst they are not my only supplier now, I have got 800 kits on cars and they performed very well on several cars at the recent Ring outing including the Boss's car, so quoting one failure seems unfair to me.
I can point to failures I have found on all brands from Protech to Nitron to Ohlins but I don't bleat about it, I get them replaced or re-gassed in the case of Nitron and Ohlins.
I'm the last person to side-swipe something, if I got something to say, i would, you should know that by now!I can point to failures I have found on all brands from Protech to Nitron to Ohlins but I don't bleat about it, I get them replaced or re-gassed in the case of Nitron and Ohlins.
Gaz was mentioned, and just a few days ago I recall a chat with Carbon Al!
Jesus, personally I dont care who uses Gaz shocks, or Ohlins or whatever fockin halfwit brand it is, its all down to the end-users requirement at the end of the day, just because one persons running them doesnt mean suddenly they're the best for everyone to use.
reminds me of the old sponsoring bullshit days at the strip... thought people had wised up to bullshit these days??? 
Hi Joolz, the I put in at the end applies to the tone of the whole post, not just the last comment, it was said with a smile, now read it again - you've met me so you know I'm not the type to say nasty comments (I hope) it wasn't a cheap shot, just a humorous 'picture' of "Hippie Jools" that I had in my mind - which I know your not - but then again I do have a wierd sense of humour .
The point I was making is this.......We are not all Technical Guru's and handling experts. So if someone like me buy's a set of Shocks to fit themselves, where do we start?? So it is useful to have something to aim for as a baseline - ie fit them and adjust them to 'n' clicks front and 'n' clicks rear, and wind the height adjusters up so that (dare I say it) the lower wishbones are parallel to the ground, which incidentally seems to equate a rear height of 146mm and a front height of 134mm - or vice versa set correct ride height wich results in the wishbones being parallel to the ground. If we non experts follow this advice then the result is a Cerbera that is near as dammit set up the same as it left the factory, and we can be pretty sure that set up that way, then the car will clear most speed bumps (as mine does), that the tyres won't foul the arches when cornering, that the exhaust wont ground etc etc etc. Once this is done, then we can start playing around and tweaking the suspension settings - if we know what we are doing. If I was setting my suspension up to race round Silverstone, I'm sure it would be different to the settings I need for Castle Coombe. What I need on my car is a baseline for me to drive on the M4, M1, M6, down the A419, the bumby twisty B426, and also suit all the roads between Gloucester and the Nurburg ring, and also to Cannes and Bordeaux and then back to Gloucester. The easiest way for people like me to achieve that is for someone to tell me that the shocks should b set to achieve a ride height of 'xyz' - not to be advised to play around with it till it suits me.
I can see where you are coming from - Can you see where Me (and other non-suspension set up Gurus) are coming from.
PS - notice all the smileys?
I put in at the end applies to the tone of the whole post, not just the last comment, it was said with a smile, now read it again - you've met me so you know I'm not the type to say nasty comments (I hope) it wasn't a cheap shot, just a humorous 'picture' of "Hippie Jools" that I had in my mind - which I know your not - but then again I do have a wierd sense of humour .The point I was making is this.......We are not all Technical Guru's and handling experts. So if someone like me buy's a set of Shocks to fit themselves, where do we start?? So it is useful to have something to aim for as a baseline - ie fit them and adjust them to 'n' clicks front and 'n' clicks rear, and wind the height adjusters up so that (dare I say it) the lower wishbones are parallel to the ground, which incidentally seems to equate a rear height of 146mm and a front height of 134mm - or vice versa set correct ride height wich results in the wishbones being parallel to the ground. If we non experts follow this advice then the result is a Cerbera that is near as dammit set up the same as it left the factory, and we can be pretty sure that set up that way, then the car will clear most speed bumps (as mine does), that the tyres won't foul the arches when cornering, that the exhaust wont ground etc etc etc. Once this is done, then we can start playing around and tweaking the suspension settings - if we know what we are doing. If I was setting my suspension up to race round Silverstone, I'm sure it would be different to the settings I need for Castle Coombe. What I need on my car is a baseline for me to drive on the M4, M1, M6, down the A419, the bumby twisty B426, and also suit all the roads between Gloucester and the Nurburg ring, and also to Cannes and Bordeaux and then back to Gloucester. The easiest way for people like me to achieve that is for someone to tell me that the shocks should b set to achieve a ride height of 'xyz' - not to be advised to play around with it till it suits me.
I can see where you are coming from - Can you see where Me (and other non-suspension set up Gurus) are coming from.
PS - notice all the smileys?
Hang on a sec - is everyone arguing the same thing here??
Its down to what the driver is comfortable with, though this could/should be adjusted from a good base set up from a reputable tuner.
Byker - There are several good basic set ups for the Cerb that various upgrade specialist use, the reason there isnt just one is that everyone drives differently and a really good specialist will ask you for your handling preferences.
As Boss said in another thread; part of the beauty of the Cerberas suspension is that pretty much everything is adjustable.
Its down to what the driver is comfortable with, though this could/should be adjusted from a good base set up from a reputable tuner.
Byker - There are several good basic set ups for the Cerb that various upgrade specialist use, the reason there isnt just one is that everyone drives differently and a really good specialist will ask you for your handling preferences.
As Boss said in another thread; part of the beauty of the Cerberas suspension is that pretty much everything is adjustable.
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