One run to rule them all...
Discussion
Just been reading the Rockingham page on the TVRCC site, one thing that sprung out at me...
"In addition, there will be a dedicated TVR parking area, a timeline of TVRs, a rolling-road shootout..."
Maybe it's an opportunity for everyone to nail their colours to the mast as show what they're actually running, not what they would have you believe they're running. C'mon have a crack, if you've nothing to hide it won't be a problem.
Discuss...
Regards
Iain
"In addition, there will be a dedicated TVR parking area, a timeline of TVRs, a rolling-road shootout..."
Maybe it's an opportunity for everyone to nail their colours to the mast as show what they're actually running, not what they would have you believe they're running. C'mon have a crack, if you've nothing to hide it won't be a problem.
Discuss...
Regards
Iain
Cos that would mean that rules might actually be enforced, actually no, we'll probably all have to run on it, but the results don't matter, cos it's only club racing after all. And wouldn't it be best to have a before and after just so the turbo boys have a case for their power loss during the race argument which allow them to have 700hp on the start line but less than 200hp by the flag?
Regards
Iain
Regards
Iain
Ok the figures are exaggerated but the point still stands 
As a spectator at Mallory, for example, you see cars punching well above their weight in the first few laps then as things warm up they get slower and slower. Standing at the inside of Devils Elbow with Kevan it was plain to both of us what was going on with certain lower class cars reeling significant car lengths on cars in the power class above.
Face it no one polices the rules, hence no-one adheres to them leaving some very disillusioned racers, some who vote with their feet, some who carry on regardless for now(my respect goes to them). At Rockingham we have an opportunity for everyone to show exactly where their at, unless of course you play with the maps/boost in between the rolling road and the track, not that I'd expect anyone to be that cunning of course. It will also mean its easier for the rule writers to put something together for next year. It's a real bugbear of mine at present cos I had a friend interested in buying the dark blue Chimaera racer, until they found out that the rules seemingly mean nothing.
Regards
Iain
As a spectator at Mallory, for example, you see cars punching well above their weight in the first few laps then as things warm up they get slower and slower. Standing at the inside of Devils Elbow with Kevan it was plain to both of us what was going on with certain lower class cars reeling significant car lengths on cars in the power class above.Face it no one polices the rules, hence no-one adheres to them leaving some very disillusioned racers, some who vote with their feet, some who carry on regardless for now(my respect goes to them). At Rockingham we have an opportunity for everyone to show exactly where their at, unless of course you play with the maps/boost in between the rolling road and the track, not that I'd expect anyone to be that cunning of course. It will also mean its easier for the rule writers to put something together for next year. It's a real bugbear of mine at present cos I had a friend interested in buying the dark blue Chimaera racer, until they found out that the rules seemingly mean nothing.
Regards
Iain
Chassis 33 said:
As a spectator at Mallory, for example, you see cars punching well above their weight in the first few laps then as things warm up they get slower and slower. Standing at the inside of Devils Elbow with Kevan it was plain to both of us what was going on with certain lower class cars reeling significant car lengths on cars in the power class above.
Can you explain to me what was going on, because its not plain to me?I wish I'd of taken the camera to Mallory so there's more than just my word on this, hopefully Kevan will pop in to back up what I'm saying (cos it feels like I'm pissing into the wind), but it's clear when AJP cars are being out dragged between Gerard's and Edwina's/Cooper Esses by cars in lower classes, folks have more power than they let on; and as such what chance have the minnows got of being competitive enough to have a race as opposed to 15mins watching mirrors while everyone else in their class has buggered off into the distance? From speaking to Kevan I believe a similar thing happened at Snetterton
I often wonder and doubt that if I'd had the reliability and a bit more talent whether I'd of had enough legal power to be competitive last season, more so this. Yes I am being a noisy t
t, but someone has to speak up and put on record what many folks are thinking (for some reason that honour usually land at my feet), there are very few "clean" cars in the series, certainly in the lower classes and the powers that be don't seem to give a shit. Sadly as grid sizes increase (whether that be because or despite of the piss taking) I don't see things changing shortly.
Motorsport doesn't have to be a case of who massages the rules best wins.
Regards
Iain
I often wonder and doubt that if I'd had the reliability and a bit more talent whether I'd of had enough legal power to be competitive last season, more so this. Yes I am being a noisy t
t, but someone has to speak up and put on record what many folks are thinking (for some reason that honour usually land at my feet), there are very few "clean" cars in the series, certainly in the lower classes and the powers that be don't seem to give a shit. Sadly as grid sizes increase (whether that be because or despite of the piss taking) I don't see things changing shortly. Motorsport doesn't have to be a case of who massages the rules best wins.
Regards
Iain
Me neither.. I know exactly where my car is and its legal and one of the quickest cars in its class.. we can make a bit more power by using short trumpets and disconnecting alternator but thts only peak and looses loads mid range but as raced its on the button.There maybe a few with more power but to be honest they are the ones that weigh a lot more and on performance balancing are where they should be...
I had a good fight in Qualifying with Dean in a class A car, we were very close but it was obvious my advantage was in the corners through circuit knowledge and his was under power on the straights. come race time tuned into the circuit Dean was miles in front..
move on to Snetterton and the Class A cars had a good 20mph on the class B cars.
The problem you have with your car and any other 4ltr is that its at the bottom power level of a class with a wide power band.. and its unfair to drop them into C as can be seen with the v8 Wedge.
I really dont accept your point... Yes there is some class tuning to balance things out and this was always going to be a learning year as more varied cars came out. Its hugely difficult to come up with a set of classes that are going to make every car competitive but we are at least trying, and just because there isnt much visible policing doesnt mean every car is hooky
there was loads of debate when it was the heavily regulated Tasmin series ( as there is in every series) about this car being hooky, that car being hooky... since the series moved on I've seen lots of these cars and inside a few engines.. and some of the supposedly hooky motors are laughable once you actually look at them...
I had a good fight in Qualifying with Dean in a class A car, we were very close but it was obvious my advantage was in the corners through circuit knowledge and his was under power on the straights. come race time tuned into the circuit Dean was miles in front..
move on to Snetterton and the Class A cars had a good 20mph on the class B cars.
The problem you have with your car and any other 4ltr is that its at the bottom power level of a class with a wide power band.. and its unfair to drop them into C as can be seen with the v8 Wedge.
I really dont accept your point... Yes there is some class tuning to balance things out and this was always going to be a learning year as more varied cars came out. Its hugely difficult to come up with a set of classes that are going to make every car competitive but we are at least trying, and just because there isnt much visible policing doesnt mean every car is hooky
there was loads of debate when it was the heavily regulated Tasmin series ( as there is in every series) about this car being hooky, that car being hooky... since the series moved on I've seen lots of these cars and inside a few engines.. and some of the supposedly hooky motors are laughable once you actually look at them...
Edited by Graham on Wednesday 4th July 13:57
That doesnt sound like the Snetterton I remember waching...
In the qualifying results the cars all line up in class, apart from the class A chevy tuscan that I beat in qually who had a problem and Gary who is still learning his car.
same for the two races the finishing positions and lap times show exactly what you would expect for a power circuit such as snett.
the quickest B car is 2 seconds a lap slower than Howard the slowest upto speed ajp car.
Sadly I got to watch one of the races, and was at home before the second one AGAIN
In the qualifying results the cars all line up in class, apart from the class A chevy tuscan that I beat in qually who had a problem and Gary who is still learning his car.
same for the two races the finishing positions and lap times show exactly what you would expect for a power circuit such as snett.
the quickest B car is 2 seconds a lap slower than Howard the slowest upto speed ajp car.
Sadly I got to watch one of the races, and was at home before the second one AGAIN
Turbo's getting hot and loosing efficiency for a start, then as I've alluded to at the top there's the option for switchable maps on ECU's, even the build it yourself Megasquirt ECU's have this option (trust me I've explored it), so you can be seen to be clean on the rolling road, when checked with a DL1, or put in hot laps to get track position in a race then knock back the mapping once then engine starts to get hot, then there's the out and out lets just build this engine to go as fast as it can cos no-one will check whether the rules are being adhered to or not.
These are all issues that have to be addressed cos burying your head in the sand will just end up be the bubble bursting from grid numbers. Take a look at Formula Renault, seen as one of the first steps on the ladder towards a professional single seater career, one particular team were seen as very fast, when everyone else realised what was happening the fathers took their sons to race else where hence grids have shrunk by around a third.
Regards
Iain
These are all issues that have to be addressed cos burying your head in the sand will just end up be the bubble bursting from grid numbers. Take a look at Formula Renault, seen as one of the first steps on the ladder towards a professional single seater career, one particular team were seen as very fast, when everyone else realised what was happening the fathers took their sons to race else where hence grids have shrunk by around a third.
Regards
Iain
I only know of one car that has switchable maps, and thats mine... it will hold 3, maps although with the switching i've got it will only switch between 2. your welcome to a copy of the programming and currently all 3 maps are the same... they wernt and that caused us a problem when the switch got knocked and selected the default map which was a 4cyl zetec
our plan is to have a main map, gentler map for the wet and another for E85 to play with that and see what difference it makes. Addmittedly there is more fiddling you could do if you had a turbo and adjustable boost control...
Just because its possible to cheat it doesnt mean that people are... and the times on the results sheets suggest they aren't.
I never said things were perfect but we are hopefully moving in the right direction, with some better class definition and more policing. ( not sure how yet mind but its a bit of a mine field)
Interestingly IF you had been out this year and reliable you'd probably be winning the class currently. would that mean you were cheating
our plan is to have a main map, gentler map for the wet and another for E85 to play with that and see what difference it makes. Addmittedly there is more fiddling you could do if you had a turbo and adjustable boost control...
Just because its possible to cheat it doesnt mean that people are... and the times on the results sheets suggest they aren't.
I never said things were perfect but we are hopefully moving in the right direction, with some better class definition and more policing. ( not sure how yet mind but its a bit of a mine field)
Interestingly IF you had been out this year and reliable you'd probably be winning the class currently. would that mean you were cheating
Probably yes, intentionally or not. I'm quite certain there's is some aspect of my car that doesn't conform to the letter of the law as stated in the Blue book or the DTC regs. None spring immediately to mind but I wont be as bold to say my car as squeaky clean, but as no-one ever pulled me up on anything (apart from not having a dog bowl fitted to my fuel tank and that took 6 races IIRC to be spotted) what's the problem?
Regards
Iain
Regards
Iain
teamHOLDENracing said:
Iain - I'm not sure I understand the part about the allegedly 'hooky' cars being quick in the first few laps and then dropping away?
Other than some of the less experienced drivers in AJP cars being tentative in their first few laps, what are you suggesting is happening?
Not quite so noticeable this year because of less turbo cars competing, but our old tasmin certainly lost hp towards the end of every race .. to be fair not usually because of heat soak but because we could never stop our exhaust fracturing, so losing boost pressure. There's no reason why a turbo car should be slower at the end of a race if it's engineered properly, but as we all know time is tight for preparing race cars, and often the install has to have compromises .. turbo cars with their extra plumbing are particularly hard to package so the opportunity for hp related heat issues is greater.Other than some of the less experienced drivers in AJP cars being tentative in their first few laps, what are you suggesting is happening?
I have to say though that our turbo was always bang on the class limit at the start in fact there's a small feature on it in PPC's Walkers Workshop where Dave Walker commented how strange it was to have someone come asking for less hp not more! I also tested Pat Smith's old car on my dyno and was very pleased to see that it too was absolutely bang on the old Tasmin Challenge class limit (easy to do on a turbo where you can map the boost levels) .. I suspect Kevan's is also the same spec?
I think that Iain is making the point that under the current series there's no checking of HP levels (previously we'd used the DL1 as policing) therefore it would appear that some cars may be more than they should be .. Graham's point about there being a wide hp window within each class is valid though, if you're at the botom of your hp window you'll always look slower at the end of a straight compared to a car at the top of (or over) it's class hp window.
I think the idea of running the cars on the dyno at Rockingham is a good one, especially if conducted alongside a weighing on a weighbridge .. might form a good basis for rules next season if we start collecting data now, or nominate a dyno and weighbridge for everyone to use for next year?
Those (the points raised by Iain a few posts ago) seem very extreme measures for anyone to go to in order to try to win a lower class of something that is not even a championship, don't you think? Winning a class, or the overall TVRCC Cup, whilst nice to do, doesn't exactly have a lot of kudos in motorsport. I just don't see the motivation.
Cheating is wrong, clearly, but I really doubt whether it is as you make out.
My twopenneth: I suspect there are one or two cars which have engines which were selected and are set up/tuned to stay just within the class power bands but produce huge amounts of torque - and these cars are quick relative to others in their classes. I also suspect that one or two people may have been tempted to up their machines in order to compete with these cars, possibly straying beyond the power limits. But I reckon that's about as bad as it gets. Having said all that, I don't know the ins and outs of the turbo powered cars.
Perhaps you should put one of Mr Dowling, Mason or Hood in one of the acknowledged 'straight' cars to see if the 'hooky' cars can be beaten?
Cheating is wrong, clearly, but I really doubt whether it is as you make out.
My twopenneth: I suspect there are one or two cars which have engines which were selected and are set up/tuned to stay just within the class power bands but produce huge amounts of torque - and these cars are quick relative to others in their classes. I also suspect that one or two people may have been tempted to up their machines in order to compete with these cars, possibly straying beyond the power limits. But I reckon that's about as bad as it gets. Having said all that, I don't know the ins and outs of the turbo powered cars.
Perhaps you should put one of Mr Dowling, Mason or Hood in one of the acknowledged 'straight' cars to see if the 'hooky' cars can be beaten?
Edited by teamHOLDENracing on Wednesday 4th July 15:36
Silverware doesn't have much draw for me, I've plenty of that from when I used to row, and I've better conversation topics than how polished my trophies are. However being able to have a race is the whole point of me being on track, and I feel that even if I had a 350hp motor and talent to match there would still be a unbridgable gap between me and someone who knew they could get away with more.
If the rules said run over a set capacity and do what you like with it, then fair enough, but they don't.
Regards
Iain
If the rules said run over a set capacity and do what you like with it, then fair enough, but they don't.
Regards
Iain
Chassis 33 said:
I feel that even if I had a 350hp motor and talent to match there would still be a unbridgable gap between me and someone who knew they could get away with more.
SO are you trying to say that someone is or is it all hypothetical in which case its a fairly pointless argument, yes someone could cheat if they didnt get caught??if you had a 350bhp car and the talent to match, imho you'd be at the front of the class. If people were taking the pee i dont see how you end up with the cars at the front running so close for the last 3 years...
p.s. my engine currently has 0.0bhp and works rather well as a door stop....
You've touched on it yourself Iain - last season you had so many reliability issues (and the odd spin when the car didn't let you down) that it was difficult to determine where in the field you would be on a consistent basis.
If you went back out and ran without problems for a couple of races then you would have a better benchmark.
I'll be slightly more specific than my earlier post and say that I think the quickest (or potentially quickest) cars in Class B and C are almost certainly legal. I do think those guys may have spent a few bob getting lots of torque - but that is entirely within the regs.
If you went back out and ran without problems for a couple of races then you would have a better benchmark.
I'll be slightly more specific than my earlier post and say that I think the quickest (or potentially quickest) cars in Class B and C are almost certainly legal. I do think those guys may have spent a few bob getting lots of torque - but that is entirely within the regs.
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