88 esprit ignition problem

[88turboesprit]

I've have an 88 turbo esprit that I've had for 10 years which has developed an annoying problem. Occasionally there is no spark at all for any of the plugs. Wait a while and it is fine again. It is so intermitent that it is hard to diagnose. I've decided to replace the coil,ignition amplifier and ignition relay. I was going to replace the distributor cap and pick-up coil but decided any problem with them would not likely cause a total loss of spark. Any other suggestions or advice ?

[lotusguy]

Hi,

Check all your grounds as almost all intermittent electrical problems can be traced to a bad ground, also check and clean all other leads. I would not rule out the dist. cap too soon as they can develop a carbon thread inside the cap which can send the coil current to earth before leaving for the plugs. Hope this helps. Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE

[88turboesprit]

Jim, thanks for the reply to my question. I've got another one for you. Whats the best way to access the distributor? From the rear near the ignition box ... remove the intake manifold ... or from underneath near the oil filter? Thanks in advance.

[lotusguy]

88turboesprit said: Jim, thanks for the reply to my question. I've got another one for you. Whats the best way to access the distributor? From the rear near the ignition box ... remove the intake manifold ... or from underneath near the oil filter? Thanks in advance.

Hi,

Well.... your distributor 'lives' under your plenum box. You can loosen it with a blade screwdriver inserted between the #1 & #2 intake runners. You should be able to clearly see the screw. Then you can reach under to rotate it and then retighten the screw. But, take care as the distributor is spring loaded onto the Aux. Shaft. If you loosen the dist. screw too much, the distributor will 'jump' off the shaft and not engage the dog.


If you want to remove the cap, it's best to lower the heater pipe which circles under the rear of the plenum box. To do this, you remove the last two bottom screws on the plenum box. These screws also hold some engine harness supports and the oil dipstick. Once removed, you'll be able to push the heater pipe lower and can access the dist. wires and cap through the enlarged access. Remember that when reinstalling that the oil dipstick holder goes on last, any other position and the dipstick will come loose and...well, you don't want to go there. Hope this helps...Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE

[lotusguy]

BTW,

I just though of another possible cause to your trouble. the low tension leads to your coil have a nasty habit of breaking their solder joint and coming loose. If this happens, the coil cannot recharge and you get no spark whatsoever.

To both check and fix the problem, you must remove the dist. body from the engine using the method I described earlier to remove the cap and wires, but you compltetely loosen the screw between the intake runners holding the distributor body on. Once out, trace the wire from the outside of the distributor body to it's source inside. Check for a loose solder joint or frayed wiring, repair as necessary.

When replacing the dist. body, turn the rotor (shaft) until it engages the dog on the Aux. Shaft before tightening down the body. A friend and I spent an entire weekend researching the cause of the same problem you are experiencing on his Esprit until we discovered this was the culprit. Hope this helps. Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE

[88turboesprit]

Jim ... I need help!!!...(or anyone...)

I was successful in removing the distributor the way you described, and ended up replacing the stock Lucas system with a Pertronix Ignitor system. After re-installing the distributor amazingly it started, however I cannot get the timing right. The service manual specifies 15' BTDC but I can only get about 3' BTDC before the vacuum capsule hits the oil filter. It idles a little rough but runs fine up to about 4000rpm then it starts to miss. Any ideas why the timing is now so far out of spec? I indexed the distributor before removal and put it back in the same position. I fear I may have to move the auxiliary pulley a couple of teeth but I am at a loss as to why I now need to do this. Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Also any advice on how to get to the belt tensioner (if I need to) would also be helpful. Thanks in advance.

[lotusguy]

88turboesprit said:

Jim ... I need help!!!...(or anyone...) I was successful in removing the distributor the way you described, and ended up replacing the stock Lucas system with a Pertronix Ignitor system. After re-installing the distributor amazingly it started, however I cannot get the timing right. The service manual specifies 15' BTDC but I can only get about 3' BTDC before the vacuum capsule hits the oil filter. It idles a little rough but runs fine up to about 4000rpm then it starts to miss. Any ideas why the timing is now so far out of spec? I indexed the distributor before removal and put it back in the same position. I fear I may have to move the auxiliary pulley a couple of teeth but I am at a loss as to why I now need to do this. Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Also any advice on how to get to the belt tensioner (if I need to) would also be helpful. Thanks in advance.

Hi,

Sorry to hear of your troubles, but it's not uncommon or difficult to correct. First, move the engine to TDC using the push-in-gear method (be sure to loosen the spark plugs to allow the engine to turn freely).

Then from under the car, loosen the belt tensioner, you may have to swing the AC compressor out of the way for access. Now, turn the aux. shaft pulley two teeth anti-clockwise. Tighten the belt tensioner making sure all your timing marks on the cam pulley and flywheel have remained at TDC. Check the belt for proper tension using a Burroughs or Kriket Gauge or until you can just twist the belt 45° in either direction between the intake pulley and the aux. pulley, this approximates the proper tension as I have measured this method using both a Kriket (registers 55lbs.) or a Burroughs gauge (registers 95 lbs.)

Now, you will need to move all the plug wires back one socket on the dist. cap (pull the cap and note the position of the rotor after moving the dist. body to the middle of it's available arc. Place the #1 wire in the socket on the dist. cap which is just behind (anti-clockwise) of the rotor at TDC (remember you want the spark to occur before you reach TDC - Advanced). Youmay need to move 'back' two sockets to achieve this. Now replace the rest of the wires in a clockwise direction as #3, #4, #2 (firing order is 1-3-4-2) and retime as before. BTW, what posessed you to switch to Petronix anyway? Not that it's a bad unit at all, just that it's not really any improvement over the standard ignition which is perfectly adequate. Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE

>> Edited by lotusguy on Saturday 5th July 14:59

[88turboesprit]

Jim,
Thanks for the quick reply. To answer your question as to why I switched, it was mostly economic. Because I wasn't sure what my ignition problem was I thought I would have to replace the amplifier along with all the other parts. Since this system does away with that the cost of the new ignitor ignition was about 1/3 of the cost of all new Lucas parts, as well the Lotus parts supplier told me this system should be more reliable. With regards to the firing order the Lotus service manual says counter-clockwise "(as viewed)" which is the way I have the wires positioned on the cap, "as viewed" from the rear of the car. When you say clockwise do you mean as viewed from inside the cap?

[lotusguy]

88turboesprit said:

Jim, Thanks for the quick reply. To answer your question as to why I switched, it was mostly economic. Because I wasn't sure what my ignition problem was I thought I would have to replace the amplifier along with all the other parts. Since this system does away with that the cost of the new ignitor ignition was about 1/3 of the cost of all new Lucas parts, as well the Lotus parts supplier told me this system should be more reliable. With regards to the firing order the Lotus service manual says counter-clockwise "(as viewed)" which is the way I have the wires positioned on the cap, "as viewed" from the rear of the car. When you say clockwise do you mean as viewed from inside the cap?

Hi,

As I said, nothing wrong with Petronix, I have installed them in a coupe of friwends acars and it's a nice unit. The economies make sense. Youare quite correct in that the firing sequence is anti-clockwise when viewed from the rear, My bad...Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE

[88turboesprit]

Jim,
Sorry to keep firing the questions at you but I am trying to fully understand whats going on before I get started. Could a problem with the Thermal Ignition Valve or vacuum circuit to the distributor cause a problem with setting the static timing? I know the TIV took a lot of abuse as I was attempting to remove the distributor, it looks OK but was rotated around and pushed on. I can't understand why the timing is so far off when it was fine before I removed the distributor. I wouldn't think that the ignitor system itself would have any effect on the timing. I don't want to adjust the auxiliary pulley if my problem is being caused by something else. Once again,thanks for all the helpful advice.

[lotusguy]

88turboesprit said:

Jim, Sorry to keep firing the questions at you but I am trying to fully understand whats going on before I get started. Could a problem with the Thermal Ignition Valve or vacuum circuit to the distributor cause a problem with setting the static timing? I know the TIV took a lot of abuse as I was attempting to remove the distributor, it looks OK but was rotated around and pushed on. I can't understand why the timing is so far off when it was fine before I removed the distributor. I wouldn't think that the ignitor system itself would have any effect on the timing. I don't want to adjust the auxiliary pulley if my problem is being caused by something else. Once again,thanks for all the helpful advice.

Hi,

First off, timing isn't that far off, the difference in the firing point on the dist. body plate to induce a 12° shift in timing is very small. I suspect that the petronix, while it screws into the same holes as the Lucas reluctor has it's firing point in a different position relative to the mounting than the lucas did. Also, if you replced the stator, again if it's not in exactly the same point can make a difference. Finally, one unit can be more sensitive than the other and fire sooner than the other. This is no big deal. And is nothing on a car with a full 360° of dist. rotation available, even 180°. The problem lies with your limited arc on the dist. rotation, nothing more.

As far as the TIV is concerned, this would have no effect as it advances rather than retards the timing. If you suspect a problem with it, remove it and perform the diagnostic tests outlined in the manual, but even if it's faulty, it will not affect the timing at idle. Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE

[88turboesprit]

Thanks for all your help Jim. I will let you know how I make out when I get to it later this week.

[temmck]

I had a similar problem on my S2 (I assume they are about the same). I corrected the lack of timing reach by doing only half of what Jim suggested. I moved the plug wires on the distributor cap by 1 hole. That gave me plenty of room to set the correct timing. I did not move the cam position on the timing belt. Mine was not as far out of timing as yours but when I indexed the wires I went from being hard against the filter to hard against the manifold so, you should be about in the middle.
I think I will readjust mine again in the future to rotate the distributor back toward the filter. With it against the manifold it is really hard to reach the cap clips.

I don't know if this timing issue is the cause of your 4,000rpm miss though. In the US the static timing is set to 0 degrees as mine was and no miss occurs.

Good luck
Terry

[lotusguy]

Terry,

Good suggestion, but it won't work. The most he'll be able to get is 11° of advance before hitting the manifold.

The aux. shaft pulley probably shifted one tooth the last time the timing belt was changed or tensioned (not uncommon). By advancing the the pulley one tooth anti-clockwise as viewed from the rear looking forward, he should reach 15° about half-way to the manifold. Ideal really.

The stock Esprits had static timing of 0° for emissions purposes. But, the 9XX engine loves lots of advance and 15° is a good number for static. A total of no more than 30° is ideal. I'm running 13° plus a 16° centrifugal adavnce. My dist. is recurved to bring the centrifugal advance all on by 2,300RPM...runs great! Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE

[temmck]

I just went back to check my notes on the work I did to toe in the timing. This is what occurred with my car;

Initial timing was 35degrees with diaphragm hard against the intake manifold (Rotating towards the filter advances the spark). I indexed the wires 1 hole and that put me at 12 degrees advanced with the diaphragm on or close to the oil filter. By moving the wires and swinging the distributor opposite lock I was able to reduce my advance from 35degrees to 12 degrees. In its current state I cannot advance the timing any more than about 15degrees before hitting the oil filter. So there is about 20 degrees that you can't reach using this method (15 to 35).

So I think just moving the wires may give you too much advance. If you are at 3 degrees now, just moving the wires will probably put you in the low 20's hard on the intake manifold - too much! It seems moving the Aux pulley may be your only option. (I guess I was just lucky)

Just for reference 1 tooth = 18 crank degrees. So, I think moving the pulley 1 tooth and leaving the wires where they are should put your distributor in the sweet spot.
Jim, do you agree?

Terry '78S2, '95S4s

PS My distributor is currently against the oil filter, not the manifold, and this is the position that is hard to reach the cap clips. Sorry for any confusion.

[lotusguy]

temmck said:

I just went back to check my notes on the work I did to toe in the timing. This is what occurred with my car; Initial timing was 35degrees with diaphragm hard against the intake manifold (Rotating towards the filter advances the spark). I indexed the wires 1 hole and that put me at 12 degrees advanced with the diaphragm on or close to the oil filter. By moving the wires and swinging the distributor opposite lock I was able to reduce my advance from 35degrees to 12 degrees. In its current state I cannot advance the timing any more than about 15degrees before hitting the oil filter. So there is about 20 degrees that you can't reach using this method (15 to 35). So I think just moving the wires may give you too much advance. If you are at 3 degrees now, just moving the wires will probably put you in the low 20's hard on the intake manifold - too much! It seems moving the Aux pulley may be your only option. (I guess I was just lucky) Just for reference 1 tooth = 18 crank degrees. So, I think moving the pulley 1 tooth and leaving the wires where they are should put your distributor in the sweet spot. Jim, do you agree? Terry '78S2, '95S4s PS My distributor is currently against the oil filter, not the manifold, and this is the position that is hard to reach the cap clips. Sorry for any confusion.

Terry,

I agree that 1 tooth on the pulley equals 18° of timing or 9° of crank rotation. But, I still think that advancing the plug wires one position will be necessary, perhaps not. The only way to tell is to advance the Aux. Shaft pulley 1 tooth and check w/ a timing light. Ideally, you want the timing point to exist in the middle of the arc between the manifold and the oil filter.

You need to think of it as a circle within a circle. The inner circle is the rotor and the outer circle is the contact point on the dist. cap. The outer circle has a limited travel of 37° between each extreme (manifold/oil filter). There is an ideal point on each circle represented on the inner circle by the rotor arm when the crank is at TDC and represented on the outer circle by the #1 contact on the dist. cap (which could be any of the four contacts). You want to move these circles in any combination which allows the point on the outer circle to lie 15° before the point on the inner circle, all the while keeping the crank at TDC. Since the travel of the outer circle is limited, this sometimes (as in this case) requires that you rotate the inner circle (rotor) to accomplish this, again keeping the crank static at TDC. As I said, I suspect that if the index mark on the Aux. Shaft pulley is checked, it will most probably not be intersected by an imaginary line between the centers of both the Aux. Shaft and the crankshaft when the crank is at TDC, which is probably the result of it slipping when the belt was last changed or replaced.

It may, however, be due to slight differences between the Lucas ignition and the Petronix unit, in which case the pulley should be marked with a paint pen, or the like, to indicate the 'new' index mark so that proper timing can be achieved after future belt tensioning, replacement or other maintenance. Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE

[88turboesprit]

Jim, Terry
Thanks for the discussion with regards to my ignition problems, it's much appreciated. I ended up moving the auxiliary pulley forward 2 teeth which put my distributor in about the middle of it's range to achieve 15' BTDC. The car now runs great, however... I think it could have a touch too much advance since it stumbles and misses slightly (barely noticable) under really hard acceleration and high revs (>6000)...Detonation????. What do you guys think? The service manual specifies 15' BTDC and only 3' centrifugal advance at 2000rpm.
Thanks for all your input, it's been really helpful.
88turboesprit

[temmck]

You should be getting more than 3degrees at 2000rpm for optimal performance. Do you still have the vacuum line connected to the diaphragm? If so take it off, cap the hole in the diaphragm (prevent the ingress of dirt) and plug the vacuum line. This will give you more advance at the top end and better acceleration where most road cars need it.

With a stock distributor you should be getting about 15degrees of mechanical advance on top of your initial advance without the vacuum retard.
To check this, start the car and raise the rpm while watching the timing marks when the advance stops increasing note the amount of advance and the rpm when the advance stopped. On the stock US distributor I think the full 15 degree advance comes in by 3000rpm. Ideally, you want all the advance in by say 2500rpm.
Lowering the rpm for maximum advance requires distributor work. There are two ways to do this:
1) Re-curve the distributor. This requires that you remove the distributor and send it to a shop that does distributor re-curves. Alternatively, you could buy an already re-curved distributor and just drop it in. Both of these are a bit on the expensive side though.
2) Change the springs on the weights inside the distributor. The new springs are a bit softer and allow the weights to centrifuge out faster. This modification is quite easy and very inexpensive. You already have experience removing and replacing the distributor so this procedure should be a snap for you. I believe there are kits available for this modification. If you are interested in this method and no one on the list provides you with details on where and how much, let me know and I will get the info for you.

The above is a couple of ways to improve performance and acceleration but should not have much impact on stumbles and misses. Are these new conditions since replacing the ignition module?
These symptoms may be related to the original problem you had with loss of spark. If you have not already done so, check the high tension leads, plugs, and distributor cap for any signs of deterioration as Jim mentioned earlier. Pay particular attention to the resistance of the high tension leads and spark plugs. If you have carbon built up on the plugs that could also cause some of the symptoms you are seeing.

This could also be related to carburetor jetting but, don't touch this until everything else is right.

Good luck.
Terry '78S2 '95S4s

[lotusguy]

temmck said:

"...On the stock US distributor I think the full 15 degree advance comes in by 3000rpm. Ideally, you want all the advance in by say 2500rpm. Lowering the rpm for maximum advance requires distributor work. There are two ways to do this: 1) Re-curve the distributor. This requires that you remove the distributor and send it to a shop that does distributor re-curves. Alternatively, you could buy an already re-curved distributor and just drop it in. Both of these are a bit on the expensive side though.... Terry '78S2 '95S4s

Hi,

Be aware that Lotus re-curved quite a few of the distributors out there in the past. In fact, Lotus just last year got rid of their 're-curving' machine (It went to Barry Spencer in California).

It's quite possible that your distributor has already been recurved as the dealers went out of their way to do this for preferred customers as a way of 'waking up' the car with all the emissions control they had on them.

Lotus put a yellow paint mark on these distributors which is still quite visible on my 18 year old Esprit. Lotus set the distributors to bring on 16° of advance at 2,300 RPM.

Even if you don't find the paint mark, you can still check it by hooking up the timing light and running the RPMs up to 2,500 and check the increase in advance. Continue revving the car higher until the advance is all in and note the RPMs. The 9XX engine loves lots of advance, up to 30° (static + centrifugal). I am running 29° Total Advance (13° static and 16° centrifugal, all in at 2,300RPM), with no detonation and great power. Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE