This could be the end for Lewis - McLaren charged by the FIA
Discussion
This appears to be more sloppy reportage by the media.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think that we (whose knowledge is limited to the public domain) are aware of McLaren's having been charged by anyone, for anything.
It seems that the FIA have summoned McLaren and Ferrari to appear before the motorsports council to explain what they know about the affair.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think that we (whose knowledge is limited to the public domain) are aware of McLaren's having been charged by anyone, for anything.
It seems that the FIA have summoned McLaren and Ferrari to appear before the motorsports council to explain what they know about the affair.
[quote] EXTRAORDINARY MEETING OF THE WORLD MOTOR SPORT COUNCIL
12.07.2007
Representatives of Vodafone McLaren Mercedes have been requested to appear before an extraordinary meeting of the FIA World Motor Sport Council in Paris on Thursday, July 26, 2007.
The team representatives have been called to answer a charge that between March and July 2007, in breach of Article 151c of the International Sporting Code, Vodafone McLaren Mercedes had unauthorised possession of documents and confidential information belonging to Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro, including information that could be used to design, engineer, build, check, test, develop and/or run a 2007 Ferrari Formula One car.
For Media Information Purposes - No Regulatory Value
[/quote]
Max: Mr Dennis will you please explain why you have these documents in your position.
Ron: Well we are leading them by so much in the constructors championship we wanted a good laugh during our tea break!
12.07.2007
Representatives of Vodafone McLaren Mercedes have been requested to appear before an extraordinary meeting of the FIA World Motor Sport Council in Paris on Thursday, July 26, 2007.
The team representatives have been called to answer a charge that between March and July 2007, in breach of Article 151c of the International Sporting Code, Vodafone McLaren Mercedes had unauthorised possession of documents and confidential information belonging to Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro, including information that could be used to design, engineer, build, check, test, develop and/or run a 2007 Ferrari Formula One car.
For Media Information Purposes - No Regulatory Value
[/quote]
Max: Mr Dennis will you please explain why you have these documents in your position.
Ron: Well we are leading them by so much in the constructors championship we wanted a good laugh during our tea break!
I stand corrected - the FIA are using the word "charge".
I guess what they mean is that, since an employee of McL. has been charged with unauthorised possession of a competitor's IP, then McL. are indirectly responsible for his behaviour, and thus themselves deserving of a charge.
Would that mean that the FIA as a whole should be held responsible for Mosley's bringing the sport into disrepute?
I guess what they mean is that, since an employee of McL. has been charged with unauthorised possession of a competitor's IP, then McL. are indirectly responsible for his behaviour, and thus themselves deserving of a charge.
Would that mean that the FIA as a whole should be held responsible for Mosley's bringing the sport into disrepute?
flemke said:
I stand corrected - the FIA are using the word "charge".
I guess what they mean is that, since an employee of McL. has been charged with unauthorised possession of a competitor's IP, then McL. are indirectly responsible for his behaviour, and thus themselves deserving of a charge.
Just on BBC World that McLaren has been charge and have to attend an extraordinary tribunal in Paris in 2 weeks !!!I guess what they mean is that, since an employee of McL. has been charged with unauthorised possession of a competitor's IP, then McL. are indirectly responsible for his behaviour, and thus themselves deserving of a charge.
Good point about Mad Max
I don't want to make any more assumptions than have already been made by others, but from what's been said so far, this looks very much like 2 mates getting together to sell themselves to other teams knowing they have knowledge which could come in quite handy in their new jobs.
This may or may not implicate the teams they used to work for, depending on how open they have been about the IP they have/had in their possession.
I have a feeling that the process now starting will prove that these individuals were acting for themselves and their own potential gain and the teams they were employed by at the time knew nothing about it.
I can't see this affecting the championship, team points or driver's standings in any way at all, but undoubtedly there will be scapegoats who will suffer in other ways.
This may or may not implicate the teams they used to work for, depending on how open they have been about the IP they have/had in their possession.
I have a feeling that the process now starting will prove that these individuals were acting for themselves and their own potential gain and the teams they were employed by at the time knew nothing about it.
I can't see this affecting the championship, team points or driver's standings in any way at all, but undoubtedly there will be scapegoats who will suffer in other ways.
flemke said:
I stand corrected - the FIA are using the word "charge".
Where?The FIA press release (link above) starts by saying:
Representatives of Vodafone McLaren Mercedes have been requested to appear before an extraordinary meeting of the FIA World Motor Sport Council in Paris on Thursday, July 26, 2007.
Killer2005 said:
IIRC Didnt the FIA say that any points would be taken out of the constructors points rathere than by losing drivers points from lewis and alonso
Nope, Bernie said words to that effect, but Max (the FIA) said that wasn't necessarily true and mentioned that it was only in exceptional circumstances where constructor points were deducted but NOT driver points, so suggesting that if Mclaren were deducted points, so would the drivers. LocoBlade said:
Killer2005 said:
IIRC Didnt the FIA say that any points would be taken out of the constructors points rathere than by losing drivers points from lewis and alonso
Nope, Bernie said words to that effect, but Max (the FIA) said that wasn't necessarily true and mentioned that it was only in exceptional circumstances where constructor points were deducted but NOT driver points, so suggesting that if Mclaren were deducted points, so would the drivers. On the other point about Ferrari/McLaren and constructors points, the Ferrari's have been resolutely quicker than the McLaren's for the last two races, and except for Massa's stall at the start of the British GP they would have taken a 1-2 in both France and Britain. With that kind of race pace it's only a matter or time before they overtake McLaren in the Constructors title anyway.
GarrettMacD said:
On the other point about Ferrari/McLaren and constructors points, the Ferrari's have been resolutely quicker than the McLaren's for the last two races, and except for Massa's stall at the start of the British GP they would have taken a 1-2 in both France and Britain. With that kind of race pace it's only a matter or time before they overtake McLaren in the Constructors title anyway.
You might well be right about the ultimate result, but that would not be on the basis of extrapolating from the last two races.If that sort of logic were right, then one would have said exactly the same thing about McLaren immediately before Magny Cours.
skeggysteve said:
flemke said:
I stand corrected - the FIA are using the word "charge".
Where?The FIA press release (link above) starts by saying:
Representatives of Vodafone McLaren Mercedes have been requested to appear before an extraordinary meeting of the FIA World Motor Sport Council in Paris on Thursday, July 26, 2007.
Max or one of his stooges said:
The team representatives have been called to answer a charge that between March and July 2007, in breach of Article 151c of the International Sporting Code, Vodafone McLaren Mercedes had unauthorised possession of documents and confidential information belonging to Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro, including information that could be used to design, engineer, build, check, test, develop and/or run a 2007 Ferrari Formula One car.
You have to love it when the "governing body" is deliberately provocative and inflames a situation in advance of knowing the facts.This is of course completely unaffected by the fact that Ferrari are the plaintiffs.
flemke said:
GarrettMacD said:
On the other point about Ferrari/McLaren and constructors points, the Ferrari's have been resolutely quicker than the McLaren's for the last two races, and except for Massa's stall at the start of the British GP they would have taken a 1-2 in both France and Britain. With that kind of race pace it's only a matter or time before they overtake McLaren in the Constructors title anyway.
You might well be right about the ultimate result, but that would not be on the basis of extrapolating from the last two races.If that sort of logic were right, then one would have said exactly the same thing about McLaren immediately before Magny Cours.
BTW - totally off the topic. I see from another thread that you're after the Guy Edwards book. I have a copy, which I'm NOT selling, but you're welcome to borrow it for a few weeks if you don't manage to get your own personal copy. It's a good book, but not worth the ridiculous sums being paid for it on places like Ebay or Amazon
GarrettMacD said:
Well, logically, McLaren's performances tailed off significantly after this whole affair came to light. Logically, one could put two and two together and come to the conclusion that McLaren were using stolen information to improve the performance of their cars, and that coincidentally they lost a significant amount of race duration performance (not qualifying speed) after the allegations came out. But, this being F1, logic isn't always logical, if you see what I mean...
BTW - totally off the topic. I see from another thread that you're after the Guy Edwards book. I have a copy, which I'm NOT selling, but you're welcome to borrow it for a few weeks if you don't manage to get your own personal copy. It's a good book, but not worth the ridiculous sums being paid for it on places like Ebay or Amazon
Garrett,BTW - totally off the topic. I see from another thread that you're after the Guy Edwards book. I have a copy, which I'm NOT selling, but you're welcome to borrow it for a few weeks if you don't manage to get your own personal copy. It's a good book, but not worth the ridiculous sums being paid for it on places like Ebay or Amazon
Have the McL's lost performance? I'm doubtful.
I've not looked at any numbers, but my sense from having watched the races is that their pace is about the same as it was relative to BMW's over the previous several races.
In addition, everyone knew beforehand that fast, flowing tracks such as Magny Cours and Silverstone were where the McL's would be weakest relative to the Ferraris.
I'd say what's happened in relative performance in the last two races is that Ferrari got back to level pegging with McL (after you make some sort of mental adjustment for different tracks favouring different cars).
This may have more to do with Ferrari's wind tunnel being repaired than with any cloak-and-dagger stuff.
The idea that one team could within a matter of weeks make use of another's IP on an already highly-developed car is quite fanciful. Each car is far too integrated and unique for that to be feasible - particularly at the sharp end.
Already all the other teams can look at a great deal of the aero on both the McL and the F and copy what they see, but they don't do that. The simple reason is that their own packages are not adaptable to someone else's details.
Thanks for the offer re the book. A friend has a copy which I can consult if needs be.
I was not interested in it for its sponsorship ideas. I just liked some of its photos, but I've got a lot of books with a lot of nice photos, so it's no big deal.
Cheers.
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