Investment Banking!
Discussion
I have just graduated and am contemplating a job in the city.
I am currently researching careers and organizations and would appreciate any advice.
Can anyone recommended any text books or other resources that discuss or outline various elements of financial careers in the city?
Many Thanks
Philip
I would expect an entry route through a graduate position but if anyone has a more efficient alternative I am listening. Perhaps an MBA?
I am currently researching careers and organizations and would appreciate any advice.
Can anyone recommended any text books or other resources that discuss or outline various elements of financial careers in the city?
Many Thanks
Philip
I would expect an entry route through a graduate position but if anyone has a more efficient alternative I am listening. Perhaps an MBA?
Edited by philiphunter on Friday 13th July 02:20
Graduate Position is by far the best way.
Are you sure you want to do investment banking? i.e M&A
And you dont want to do Sales? or Trading? or Asset Management?
But be warned that to get into the graduate program you will probably need 3 A's at A-Level and a degree from a good uni, and even then it isnt a deffinate that you will even get an interview.
For example my sister got 5 A's at A-level
Maths Physics Biology Chemistry and Italian.
She also got a 1st from Oxford in Biochemistry and didnt even get an interview....
I went the long way, I didnt get in through grad scheme, due to rubbish a-levels.... so went to do a masters in the best uni in italy, got some work experience there, and then came back looking for a job, and found someone willing to take a chance on me.
Good luck
Dom
Are you sure you want to do investment banking? i.e M&A
And you dont want to do Sales? or Trading? or Asset Management?
But be warned that to get into the graduate program you will probably need 3 A's at A-Level and a degree from a good uni, and even then it isnt a deffinate that you will even get an interview.
For example my sister got 5 A's at A-level
Maths Physics Biology Chemistry and Italian.
She also got a 1st from Oxford in Biochemistry and didnt even get an interview....
I went the long way, I didnt get in through grad scheme, due to rubbish a-levels.... so went to do a masters in the best uni in italy, got some work experience there, and then came back looking for a job, and found someone willing to take a chance on me.
Good luck
Dom
Graduate schemes are closed for this year. They will reopen in November.
How long have you wanted to work in the city? I'm going to be blunt and suggest that it's a relatively new idea, as you don't know much about it and how the recruitment process works. That doesn't mean you can't get a position but it does mean you are up against competition who have been planning it for the last 10 years!
For descriptions of roles try www.efinancialcareers.co.uk they have a student section.
Getting onto an MBA course which is well received in the IB world will be impossible without 3 years real world work experience. A possible option would be to do an MSc in Finance or Mathematics, but the courses starting in September are most likely full and will require you to have a previous quantitative degree. CASS and Reading's MScs are well regarded in the city. The MSc route is more likely to move you into a sales/trading or possibly structuring role rather than corporate finance role.
If Corporate Finance i.e. M&A is what you want to do an option is to train as an ACA accountant (preferably with the Big 4) for 3 years and apply that way. I think that there are still a few vacancies with the Big 4 for a start this year if you are prepared to work in an outpost. The market may well have changed in terms of supply and demand in 3 years though.
How long have you wanted to work in the city? I'm going to be blunt and suggest that it's a relatively new idea, as you don't know much about it and how the recruitment process works. That doesn't mean you can't get a position but it does mean you are up against competition who have been planning it for the last 10 years!
For descriptions of roles try www.efinancialcareers.co.uk they have a student section.
Getting onto an MBA course which is well received in the IB world will be impossible without 3 years real world work experience. A possible option would be to do an MSc in Finance or Mathematics, but the courses starting in September are most likely full and will require you to have a previous quantitative degree. CASS and Reading's MScs are well regarded in the city. The MSc route is more likely to move you into a sales/trading or possibly structuring role rather than corporate finance role.
If Corporate Finance i.e. M&A is what you want to do an option is to train as an ACA accountant (preferably with the Big 4) for 3 years and apply that way. I think that there are still a few vacancies with the Big 4 for a start this year if you are prepared to work in an outpost. The market may well have changed in terms of supply and demand in 3 years though.
bigbaddom said:
But be warned that to get into the graduate program you will probably need 3 A's at A-Level and a degree from a good uni, and even then it isnt a deffinate that you will even get an interview.
Do you really need 3 A's at A-level? I didn't even get a single A so does that mean my chances are very remote? I got the obligatory 2:1 in a related course from a good university but is that not enough?I'm enthusiastic about this sort of stuff and dare I say far more knowledgeable than my peers but if it's down to A-Levels none of the above will stand me in good stead.
eyebeebe said:
How long have you wanted to work in the city? I'm going to be blunt and suggest that it's a relatively new idea, as you don't know much about it and how the recruitment process works. That doesn't mean you can't get a position but it does mean you are up against competition who have been planning it for the last 10 years!
I appreciate your comments and to a degree you are correct.I have completed an IT related degree (although more business/analyst than technical), but feel that my interests lie in business and finance. This is a relatively new idea but with the research I am currently undertaking feel it is the path I desire.
I have a meeting with a finance careers advisor next week, and I appreciate any information (positive or negative) from those of you with experience or valid opinion.
I am at a time in my life when I am willing to commit myself to the pursuit of a lucrative career, and will keep at it until I am successful.
Thanks for any advice or comments!
Hey Gary,
To get onto one of the graduate programs yes you will need very good a-levels.
I was in a position similar to yours.. mine were rubbish.
I passed the entrance exam to get into the most prestigous uni in italy and did a masters there and thats how I got my current job.
It takes alot of work, but if you want it you can get it.
Languages are definetly a big plus too.
But most of all you need a bit of luck
To get onto one of the graduate programs yes you will need very good a-levels.
I was in a position similar to yours.. mine were rubbish.
I passed the entrance exam to get into the most prestigous uni in italy and did a masters there and thats how I got my current job.
It takes alot of work, but if you want it you can get it.
Languages are definetly a big plus too.
But most of all you need a bit of luck
bigbaddom said:
Hey Gary,
To get onto one of the graduate programs yes you will need very good a-levels.
I was in a position similar to yours.. mine were rubbish.
I passed the entrance exam to get into the most prestigous uni in italy and did a masters there and thats how I got my current job.
It takes alot of work, but if you want it you can get it.
Languages are definetly a big plus too.
But most of all you need a bit of luck
To get onto one of the graduate programs yes you will need very good a-levels.
I was in a position similar to yours.. mine were rubbish.
I passed the entrance exam to get into the most prestigous uni in italy and did a masters there and thats how I got my current job.
It takes alot of work, but if you want it you can get it.
Languages are definetly a big plus too.
But most of all you need a bit of luck
Not exactly what I was wanting to hear. They're not rubbish - but they're not A's either - I got BBC and a C in Maths to be precise. I'm hoping they may over-look those as my GCSE's are far better and I got a 2:1 too which is the most up to date qualification. I was actually speaking with a Vice President of Merrill today and I have a contact with the MD but after what you're saying maybe even those contacts won't help if they look at A levels that much.g4ry13 said:
bigbaddom said:
Hey Gary,
To get onto one of the graduate programs yes you will need very good a-levels.
I was in a position similar to yours.. mine were rubbish.
I passed the entrance exam to get into the most prestigous uni in italy and did a masters there and thats how I got my current job.
It takes alot of work, but if you want it you can get it.
Languages are definetly a big plus too.
But most of all you need a bit of luck
To get onto one of the graduate programs yes you will need very good a-levels.
I was in a position similar to yours.. mine were rubbish.
I passed the entrance exam to get into the most prestigous uni in italy and did a masters there and thats how I got my current job.
It takes alot of work, but if you want it you can get it.
Languages are definetly a big plus too.
But most of all you need a bit of luck
Not exactly what I was wanting to hear. They're not rubbish - but they're not A's either - I got BBC and a C in Maths to be precise. I'm hoping they may over-look those as my GCSE's are far better and I got a 2:1 too which is the most up to date qualification. I was actually speaking with a Vice President of Merrill today and I have a contact with the MD but after what you're saying maybe even those contacts won't help if they look at A levels that much.There are 2 youngsters I know starting off in the city in finance careers, both children of friends of mine.
One is a 4 A's at A-level, and Oxford first in maths type, he's joining a bank to do something called credit derivatives structuring (I think, thats what its called!). I'm not sure what it is; Incidentally, if anyone else can actually describe in laymans terms what that is, that would be well recieved, out of curiosity, really.
The other is a young lady who I think got around about BBC in her A-levels, did economics at leeds, got a 2:1, and did a masters. She joined Ernst & Young, she's doing her accounting training with them with a job title which includes M&A.
Head up, go grab it. Nothings out of reach.
I had next to no qualifications when I binned school back in the day. I prefered my guitar to my pencil case. I'd say it had next to no bearing on my career, with the exception of the first couple of years.
Best of luck.
Hey Gary,
I am in no way saying that it is impossible.
However it will be nigh impossible to get on the graduate scheme.
You have to remember that they get thousands of applications, and they need a way to sort through them quickly.
My A-Levels just so you know where B C D D E
Rubbish.
But now I am doing ok.
I agree that it will probably only affect your first few years, but I still would have preffered to have done a graduate scheme, as they seem to look after you, there is a big group of people all in a similar situation.
They ussually give you 3 months of training etc.
On an explination of Credit derivative structuring
I am no expect as it is not my field, but it is similar in idea to insurance.
The products are related to the default, or I think even the downgrading of anything, generally companies bonds.
The structuring is where they calculate what the fair value of the product is by working out how to hedge their exposure.
For Example,
1) I want to be paid 1 million if Company A (probability of default 0.5%) defaults
2) I want to be paid 1 million if Company A (probability of default 0.5%) B (probability of default 0.5%) or C (probability of default 0.5%) defaults
If company A B and C have a correlation of 0, which product costs more.
If company A B and C have a correlation of 1, which product costs more.
hope this helps.
answers on a postcard.....
I am in no way saying that it is impossible.
However it will be nigh impossible to get on the graduate scheme.
You have to remember that they get thousands of applications, and they need a way to sort through them quickly.
My A-Levels just so you know where B C D D E
Rubbish.
But now I am doing ok.
I agree that it will probably only affect your first few years, but I still would have preffered to have done a graduate scheme, as they seem to look after you, there is a big group of people all in a similar situation.
They ussually give you 3 months of training etc.
On an explination of Credit derivative structuring
I am no expect as it is not my field, but it is similar in idea to insurance.
The products are related to the default, or I think even the downgrading of anything, generally companies bonds.
The structuring is where they calculate what the fair value of the product is by working out how to hedge their exposure.
For Example,
1) I want to be paid 1 million if Company A (probability of default 0.5%) defaults
2) I want to be paid 1 million if Company A (probability of default 0.5%) B (probability of default 0.5%) or C (probability of default 0.5%) defaults
If company A B and C have a correlation of 0, which product costs more.
If company A B and C have a correlation of 1, which product costs more.
hope this helps.
answers on a postcard.....
I'm interested in getting into business and finance too, though have no background of it only what I read and learn myself. I grad. from a red brick uni with Masters in Pharmacy and ABBB in A levels (A in Maths).
What would be the best way for me? Graduate scheme possible? What I'm worried about is that 'if' i manage to get an interview...what sort of questions will they ask me and is my answer of 'well i didn't know what I wanted to do when I left school until now' enough for them?
What would be the best way for me? Graduate scheme possible? What I'm worried about is that 'if' i manage to get an interview...what sort of questions will they ask me and is my answer of 'well i didn't know what I wanted to do when I left school until now' enough for them?
gandhi said:
joining a bank to do something called credit derivatives structuring (I think, thats what its called!). I'm not sure what it is; Incidentally, if anyone else can actually describe in laymans terms what that is, that would be well recieved, out of curiosity, really.
In laymans terms they are taking loans, wrapping them up together, and then betting on a scenario happening. For instance a Credit Default swap could be considered an insurance policy against an investment of yours going bust.None of these experiences and knowledge seem to be shining a positive light on the idea.
I will have to see what comes up in my career advice meeting on Tuesday.
I don't have any A Levels as I worked for myself after leaving school, and got into Uni through an access course.
Also I was a mature student at 32, does anyone believe this may effect my chances of a graduate position?
I am still positive about making the move South and getting a good job in the City, but perhaps Investment Banking is out of my reach at the moment.
Can anyone recommend other professional route that maybe suitable? (Business / IT Analyst).
I will have to see what comes up in my career advice meeting on Tuesday.
I don't have any A Levels as I worked for myself after leaving school, and got into Uni through an access course.
Also I was a mature student at 32, does anyone believe this may effect my chances of a graduate position?
I am still positive about making the move South and getting a good job in the City, but perhaps Investment Banking is out of my reach at the moment.
Can anyone recommend other professional route that maybe suitable? (Business / IT Analyst).
philiphunter said:
None of these experiences and knowledge seem to be shining a positive light on the idea.
I will have to see what comes up in my career advice meeting on Tuesday.
I don't have any A Levels as I worked for myself after leaving school, and got into Uni through an access course.
Also I was a mature student at 32, does anyone believe this may effect my chances of a graduate position?
I am still positive about making the move South and getting a good job in the City, but perhaps Investment Banking is out of my reach at the moment.
Can anyone recommend other professional route that maybe suitable? (Business / IT Analyst).
Rather than speaking to a careers advisor, give the HR department of a few banks a call and ask their opinion. What were you doing for yourself in the years between leaving school and going to uni?I will have to see what comes up in my career advice meeting on Tuesday.
I don't have any A Levels as I worked for myself after leaving school, and got into Uni through an access course.
Also I was a mature student at 32, does anyone believe this may effect my chances of a graduate position?
I am still positive about making the move South and getting a good job in the City, but perhaps Investment Banking is out of my reach at the moment.
Can anyone recommend other professional route that maybe suitable? (Business / IT Analyst).
You may be able to get into an IT or Ops role (which are well paid but aren't going to let you retire in 5 years time), but in all honesty I think you are being unrealistically optimistic thinking you will get accepted onto a Front Office graduate scheme. Even then I would suggest that you need to get real world IT/Business Analyst experience, rather than waving a degree certificate in their face.
If you have got 10-15 years relevant experience from the years before you went to uni, my advice would be to forget a careers advisor and go speak to some recruitment agencies. They will tell you bluntly whether any financial institutions will be interested in you or not.
eyebeebe said:
Rather than speaking to a careers advisor, give the HR department of a few banks a call and ask their opinion. What were you doing for yourself in the years between leaving school and going to uni?
You may be able to get into an IT or Ops role (which are well paid but aren't going to let you retire in 5 years time), but in all honesty I think you are being unrealistically optimistic thinking you will get accepted onto a Front Office graduate scheme. Even then I would suggest that you need to get real world IT/Business Analyst experience, rather than waving a degree certificate in their face.
If you have got 10-15 years relevant experience from the years before you went to uni, my advice would be to forget a careers advisor and go speak to some recruitment agencies. They will tell you bluntly whether any financial institutions will be interested in you or not.
I ran my own retail outlet for approx 10 years after leaving school.You may be able to get into an IT or Ops role (which are well paid but aren't going to let you retire in 5 years time), but in all honesty I think you are being unrealistically optimistic thinking you will get accepted onto a Front Office graduate scheme. Even then I would suggest that you need to get real world IT/Business Analyst experience, rather than waving a degree certificate in their face.
If you have got 10-15 years relevant experience from the years before you went to uni, my advice would be to forget a careers advisor and go speak to some recruitment agencies. They will tell you bluntly whether any financial institutions will be interested in you or not.
I appreciate your honest opinion and I will try your suggestion of getting in some with the HR departments.
I have 12 months experience in a systems analyst role when I completed my placement year.
To be quite honest my main aim is not to retire in 5 years but I figured whichever career path I choose I will give 150% effort therefore I should go for the big time and make the most of it.
I would also like to bring my family to live near the capital to experience life in the city.
philiphunter said:
I would also like to bring my family to live near the capital to experience life in the city.
I hope you realise if you go into investment banking, you will not see your family much - are you prepared to spend most of your weekends in the office, work until way past midnight most days and regularly have to cancel holidays?Izzy said:
philiphunter said:
I would also like to bring my family to live near the capital to experience life in the city.
I hope you realise if you go into investment banking, you will not see your family much - are you prepared to spend most of your weekends in the office, work until way past midnight most days and regularly have to cancel holidays?The roles that involve that kind of work generally speaking are M&A/Advisory and Primary Capital Markets. As per my previous posts Philip is being rather optimistic if he thinks he will get into one of those roles.
My workday generally starts between 8:30 and 9:00 and ends between 18:30 and 20:00. The latest I've been in the office is 23:30 and never needed to work at the weekend. There are definately jobs in the bank that work longer hours than me, as I'm not a producer (I aim to be and have a very set plan to get me there, which is going very smoothly). For my profession and stage of career I get paid more than the vast majority of my peers outside the Financial Services industry and a nice bonus on top. Even if I don't get exactly where I want to be I'll still be doing very nicely compared to most. This is where I personally think Philip should be aiming from an IT angle and as such should be speaking to HR at banks and specialist recruitment agencies. Again www.efinancialcareers.co.uk is a goldmine of jobs and industry insights. These jobs aren't going to have you working 20 hours a day 6 days a week. You will work hard but you will be rewarded comensurately, although not in a Gordon Gecko manner!
eyebeebe said:
Is that what you have experienced or is it what you've heard?
The roles that involve that kind of work generally speaking are M&A/Advisory and Primary Capital Markets. As per my previous posts Philip is being rather optimistic if he thinks he will get into one of those roles.
My workday generally starts between 8:30 and 9:00 and ends between 18:30 and 20:00. The latest I've been in the office is 23:30 and never needed to work at the weekend. There are definately jobs in the bank that work longer hours than me, as I'm not a producer (I aim to be and have a very set plan to get me there, which is going very smoothly). For my profession and stage of career I get paid more than the vast majority of my peers outside the Financial Services industry and a nice bonus on top. Even if I don't get exactly where I want to be I'll still be doing very nicely compared to most. This is where I personally think Philip should be aiming from an IT angle and as such should be speaking to HR at banks and specialist recruitment agencies. Again www.efinancialcareers.co.uk is a goldmine of jobs and industry insights. These jobs aren't going to have you working 20 hours a day 6 days a week. You will work hard but you will be rewarded comensurately, although not in a Gordon Gecko manner!
Been a secretary in investment banking for about 10 years. Up until a few years ago, we used to do pretty much the same hours as the bankers - I was in until midnight on my first day working on a presentation... also used to get phone calls at 8.00 on Sunday mornings asking if I could come in. The roles that involve that kind of work generally speaking are M&A/Advisory and Primary Capital Markets. As per my previous posts Philip is being rather optimistic if he thinks he will get into one of those roles.
My workday generally starts between 8:30 and 9:00 and ends between 18:30 and 20:00. The latest I've been in the office is 23:30 and never needed to work at the weekend. There are definately jobs in the bank that work longer hours than me, as I'm not a producer (I aim to be and have a very set plan to get me there, which is going very smoothly). For my profession and stage of career I get paid more than the vast majority of my peers outside the Financial Services industry and a nice bonus on top. Even if I don't get exactly where I want to be I'll still be doing very nicely compared to most. This is where I personally think Philip should be aiming from an IT angle and as such should be speaking to HR at banks and specialist recruitment agencies. Again www.efinancialcareers.co.uk is a goldmine of jobs and industry insights. These jobs aren't going to have you working 20 hours a day 6 days a week. You will work hard but you will be rewarded comensurately, although not in a Gordon Gecko manner!
eyebeebe said:
Izzy said:
philiphunter said:
I would also like to bring my family to live near the capital to experience life in the city.
I hope you realise if you go into investment banking, you will not see your family much - are you prepared to spend most of your weekends in the office, work until way past midnight most days and regularly have to cancel holidays?The roles that involve that kind of work generally speaking are M&A/Advisory and Primary Capital Markets. As per my previous posts Philip is being rather optimistic if he thinks he will get into one of those roles.
My workday generally starts between 8:30 and 9:00 and ends between 18:30 and 20:00. The latest I've been in the office is 23:30 and never needed to work at the weekend. There are definately jobs in the bank that work longer hours than me, as I'm not a producer (I aim to be and have a very set plan to get me there, which is going very smoothly). For my profession and stage of career I get paid more than the vast majority of my peers outside the Financial Services industry and a nice bonus on top. Even if I don't get exactly where I want to be I'll still be doing very nicely compared to most. This is where I personally think Philip should be aiming from an IT angle and as such should be speaking to HR at banks and specialist recruitment agencies. Again www.efinancialcareers.co.uk is a goldmine of jobs and industry insights. These jobs aren't going to have you working 20 hours a day 6 days a week. You will work hard but you will be rewarded comensurately, although not in a Gordon Gecko manner!
I am prepared to put in the time and effort required to be successful and my wife is very supportive of this. I know I can't fully understand the difficulties and hardships until I have experienced them first hand but I do appreciate your experiences and opinions.
I have found an advert for a job as a 'junior trader' requiring no experience. I have been and bought a 'dummies guide to trading'(don't laugh) book and am considering a course in Quantitative methods and another in French. (I do have a tendency for mathematics and have basic French skills).
I will take your advice and, "call HR at banks and specialist recruitment agencies", and also check out the various sites.
I will continue to strive for self improvement relevant to my career including learning new languages.
If it takes me another year or two then that's the way it has to be, and I appreciate any advice and suggestions that will help me achieve my ultimate goal of a successful career in the city.
Alternatively, try for a job in the back office of an investment bank/asset mgmt firm which gives you a foot in the door, then build up your contacts and experience in the area you want to move into.
Or, join a small company where there isn’t a defined career path or complex hierarchy. It’s much easier for talent to get noticed in a place like this.
Or, join a small company where there isn’t a defined career path or complex hierarchy. It’s much easier for talent to get noticed in a place like this.
LeoSayer said:
Alternatively, try for a job in the back office of an investment bank/asset mgmt firm which gives you a foot in the door, then build up your contacts and experience in the area you want to move into.
Or, join a small company where there isn’t a defined career path or complex hierarchy. It’s much easier for talent to get noticed in a place like this.
Thanks for the positive advice. I noticed a few back office jobs on the market and I will look further into them.Or, join a small company where there isn’t a defined career path or complex hierarchy. It’s much easier for talent to get noticed in a place like this.
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