Who would have been at fault here?
Discussion
I had a very near miss on the motorway last night.
I was on a slip road going onto the M4 and had accelerated up to about 60mph. There was a lorry level to where I would be entering lane 1 so I sped up slightly to get in front of it. Just as I approached the cab I noticed another lorry which had just overtaken the lorry in lane 1 which was indicating to come back in. I could have braked to slot in behind the two of them or accelerate to get in front of the second truck.
I chose to do the latter and as I entered lane 1 I had about 5 metres behind me and the cab and my left tyres clipped the point where the dotted lines meet the hard shoulder solid white line. Just as I pulled onto the motorway another car which had been overtaking both trucks attempted to pull back into lane 1, forcing me onto the hard shoulder.
If we had collided who would have been at fault? As I passed the second lorry I estimate my speed at between 80-90mph so feasibly the car might not have seen me until very late.
I was on a slip road going onto the M4 and had accelerated up to about 60mph. There was a lorry level to where I would be entering lane 1 so I sped up slightly to get in front of it. Just as I approached the cab I noticed another lorry which had just overtaken the lorry in lane 1 which was indicating to come back in. I could have braked to slot in behind the two of them or accelerate to get in front of the second truck.
I chose to do the latter and as I entered lane 1 I had about 5 metres behind me and the cab and my left tyres clipped the point where the dotted lines meet the hard shoulder solid white line. Just as I pulled onto the motorway another car which had been overtaking both trucks attempted to pull back into lane 1, forcing me onto the hard shoulder.
If we had collided who would have been at fault? As I passed the second lorry I estimate my speed at between 80-90mph so feasibly the car might not have seen me until very late.
As you were on a sliproad, technically you should be the one giving way.
However, the vehicles pulling back into Lane 1 should also have been aware of you joining (though speed may not help as you may have "appeared from nowhere".
As you cannot control anyone's actions other than your own, you should have reduced your speed and joined the carriageway behind the first truck, and then overtaken once you had become established on the carriageway.
I guess the moral is that accelerating away from one danger may put you into another one (though if you had someone up your chuff on the sliproad, braking may not have helped either....).
Glad you are okay, and hopefully next time you will pick up more of the traffic in L2 and L3, and anticipate that they may be pulling back in. WHat doesn't kill us makes us stronger
However, the vehicles pulling back into Lane 1 should also have been aware of you joining (though speed may not help as you may have "appeared from nowhere".
As you cannot control anyone's actions other than your own, you should have reduced your speed and joined the carriageway behind the first truck, and then overtaken once you had become established on the carriageway.
I guess the moral is that accelerating away from one danger may put you into another one (though if you had someone up your chuff on the sliproad, braking may not have helped either....).
Glad you are okay, and hopefully next time you will pick up more of the traffic in L2 and L3, and anticipate that they may be pulling back in. WHat doesn't kill us makes us stronger
You would not have been stuck for witnesses thats for sure, from the truck driver in lane ones point of view he would see you trying to come on and the second truck wanting to come over, an experienced trucker would be looking for a flash from truck one, if it was me truck two wouldn't get it because it could be misconstrued.
The second trucker should be on the ball and see you in his wide angle mirror thats why all trucks have to have at least 3 mirrors on the nearside, assuming neither truck was speeding you should have been able to clear them both unless you where struggling to clear truck one anyway(only you know that).
The car must have been in lane 3 to be passing both trucks so for him to move from lane 3 to lane 1 is a bit naughty and both truckers would have seen that(witnesses) which could be of some comfort to your family.
IMO you joining the motorway would be held responsable because according to the HC you are supposed to find a gap, not make one.
It's a tough one It happens all the time 3 people got killed on the M6 a few years ago when a truck joined the motorway forcing everything over and a truck went through the barrier, normally the vehicle that causes it (sorry to say it but it might be the one that was joining) drives off into the distance.
Still no harm done in this case.
The second trucker should be on the ball and see you in his wide angle mirror thats why all trucks have to have at least 3 mirrors on the nearside, assuming neither truck was speeding you should have been able to clear them both unless you where struggling to clear truck one anyway(only you know that).
The car must have been in lane 3 to be passing both trucks so for him to move from lane 3 to lane 1 is a bit naughty and both truckers would have seen that(witnesses) which could be of some comfort to your family.
IMO you joining the motorway would be held responsable because according to the HC you are supposed to find a gap, not make one.
It's a tough one It happens all the time 3 people got killed on the M6 a few years ago when a truck joined the motorway forcing everything over and a truck went through the barrier, normally the vehicle that causes it (sorry to say it but it might be the one that was joining) drives off into the distance.
Still no harm done in this case.
Bing o said:
Glad you are okay, and hopefully next time you will pick up more of the traffic in L2 and L3, and anticipate that they may be pulling back in. WHat doesn't kill us makes us stronger
The slip road comes up from beneath the level of the motorway i.e. truck A was blocking my view so I couldn't see what was in L2 or L3 until too late.In hindsight that was my limit point so I should have simply slowed up and pulled in behind truck A. Lesson learnt for sure.
I was just wondering where I would have stood on a legal aspect. You could argue that since truck B and the car were pulling into L1 right on a slip road they were not thinking about limit points either.
I think as slowly slowly said, it would all come down to what the truck drivers statements said.
While you are supposed to give way - you were joining infront of 'truck A', and in a position that was safe wrt 'truck b' then your move would be considered fair, whereas the car moving from lane 3 to lane 1 without looking was the cause of the argument.
While you are supposed to give way - you were joining infront of 'truck A', and in a position that was safe wrt 'truck b' then your move would be considered fair, whereas the car moving from lane 3 to lane 1 without looking was the cause of the argument.
Lambochick said:
I always thought that it was the responsibility of the driver joining a motorway to make sure it was clear and safe to do so, so I guess that would put you at fault.
I'm with LC on this - they're all already on the M'way and you are on the slip road trying to get on therefore you should give way.thekirbyfake said:
Bing o said:
Glad you are okay, and hopefully next time you will pick up more of the traffic in L2 and L3, and anticipate that they may be pulling back in. WHat doesn't kill us makes us stronger
The slip road comes up from beneath the level of the motorway i.e. truck A was blocking my view so I couldn't see what was in L2 or L3 until too late.In hindsight that was my limit point so I should have simply slowed up and pulled in behind truck A. Lesson learnt for sure.
I was just wondering where I would have stood on a legal aspect. You could argue that since truck B and the car were pulling into L1 right on a slip road they were not thinking about limit points either.
Legally you would have failed to give way, and be speeding, so at the inquest into the fatal accident they would have found against you, if that would be of any comfort...
(Not trying to be out of order, just pointing out that arguing who was in the right matters not when you are underneath a 20 tonne artic)
I support the Dutch approach of banning lane changes for a short distance before and after a slip road.
Having said that, in the OP's situation I would likely have done the same. I would never slot in betwen two lorries as described.
We all know that sometimes even the best drivers cannot accommodate every possible situation when joining a motorway. For example, slowing slightly to create space ahead of you is negated by the idiot who decides on a last minute overtake on the slip road (even single lane slip roads) and 'steals' the slot you were aiming for. Now your speed is not matched and there's nowhere to go - Streaky
Having said that, in the OP's situation I would likely have done the same. I would never slot in betwen two lorries as described.
We all know that sometimes even the best drivers cannot accommodate every possible situation when joining a motorway. For example, slowing slightly to create space ahead of you is negated by the idiot who decides on a last minute overtake on the slip road (even single lane slip roads) and 'steals' the slot you were aiming for. Now your speed is not matched and there's nowhere to go - Streaky
Road Craft give clear advice as to how to join motorway. It say poor planning cause you to have to stop on slip road 
DSA Theory Test managed to confuse our kittens this time last year
We bought the practice questions for them well in advance. The only question they seemed to get wrong was surprisingly this one.
The question was about what to do if already on motorway & you see a car joining on slip road. There were no alternatives which made sense to them. The correct answer simply told them to "change lanes to allow the other car on to motorway."
The kids thought it should be modified to "if safe to do so" und may be offer two correct possible answers by suggesting an option of gentle ease off to allow match/gap for person to join safely. (They are just turned 18 years. I now feel "old" as I have three "grown up cats" now
Not really .. 
They still have much to learn )
DSA Driving Standard tell you "not to force way on" but to "make sure you can be seen (indicating intent) "
It tell drivers already on motorway that they should not try to "race" a car trying to join. To look ahead in case more than one on slip road und adjust speed accordingly (The kittens read this book ) und if safe to consider changing lane to assist the join-in the fun!
What I like about this book ist the focus on driving defensively -being responsible for your own safety und guarding against the stupdity of others. It more or less tell you to C O A S T
DSA Theory Test managed to confuse our kittens this time last year
We bought the practice questions for them well in advance. The only question they seemed to get wrong was surprisingly this one.The question was about what to do if already on motorway & you see a car joining on slip road. There were no alternatives which made sense to them. The correct answer simply told them to "change lanes to allow the other car on to motorway."
The kids thought it should be modified to "if safe to do so" und may be offer two correct possible answers by suggesting an option of gentle ease off to allow match/gap for person to join safely. (They are just turned 18 years. I now feel "old" as I have three "grown up cats" now
Not really .. They still have much to learn ) DSA Driving Standard tell you "not to force way on" but to "make sure you can be seen (indicating intent) "
It tell drivers already on motorway that they should not try to "race" a car trying to join. To look ahead in case more than one on slip road und adjust speed accordingly
(The kittens read this book ) und if safe to consider changing lane to assist the join-in the fun!What I like about this book ist the focus on driving defensively -being responsible for your own safety und guarding against the stupdity of others. It more or less tell you to C O A S T
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