Hazards in the verge
Discussion
Are there any regulations governing hidden hazards in roadside verges?
My son has just written his car off (presumably - it looks pretty bad) somewhere in Wales (he did say where, but I can't remember). Situation is that he was coming down a hill, approaching a bend - he says he was doing about 50, I'm not going to say yea or nay to that, but he's not normally a speeder - and lost traction. The road surface is quite new, there were no warning signs other than a "new road layout ahead" - specifically, no chevrons, no "bend" triangle or warnings of loose chippings, etc. When he realised that he wasn't going to get round the bend, he decided to go for the verge. Unfortunately, there was a bloody great piece of farm machinery (a plough, by the look of it) right in his path. He hit this and it launched him through the hedge. From the pictures, the plough looked to be about 4 feet from the edge of the tarmac, with the hedge maybe 6 feet further back.
Also, it looks as if the new road surface may be suspect, since a motorcyclist came off at the same place a couple of days later. The police said that this bit of road doesn't normally suffer from accidents. Apparently (according the breakdown driver), the cyclist slid on loose grit/gravel - not much, but there was some around.
I've given him two bits of advice:
1) Don't bother trying to get a new car for at least 18 months, until he's 25,
2) Push the insurance company to investigate whether there's any liability on the local council or other body for this, since it seems, prima facie that there's some negligence here - no warning signs, and a dangerous piece of farm equipment close to the road.
Any thoughts on whether he has a case or not?
If I can get the details later, I'll post the location and link to some pictures.
My son has just written his car off (presumably - it looks pretty bad) somewhere in Wales (he did say where, but I can't remember). Situation is that he was coming down a hill, approaching a bend - he says he was doing about 50, I'm not going to say yea or nay to that, but he's not normally a speeder - and lost traction. The road surface is quite new, there were no warning signs other than a "new road layout ahead" - specifically, no chevrons, no "bend" triangle or warnings of loose chippings, etc. When he realised that he wasn't going to get round the bend, he decided to go for the verge. Unfortunately, there was a bloody great piece of farm machinery (a plough, by the look of it) right in his path. He hit this and it launched him through the hedge. From the pictures, the plough looked to be about 4 feet from the edge of the tarmac, with the hedge maybe 6 feet further back.
Also, it looks as if the new road surface may be suspect, since a motorcyclist came off at the same place a couple of days later. The police said that this bit of road doesn't normally suffer from accidents. Apparently (according the breakdown driver), the cyclist slid on loose grit/gravel - not much, but there was some around.
I've given him two bits of advice:
1) Don't bother trying to get a new car for at least 18 months, until he's 25,
2) Push the insurance company to investigate whether there's any liability on the local council or other body for this, since it seems, prima facie that there's some negligence here - no warning signs, and a dangerous piece of farm equipment close to the road.
Any thoughts on whether he has a case or not?
If I can get the details later, I'll post the location and link to some pictures.
Reg: Not the same day, AFAIK. I said one, but, actually, there were two motorcyclists came off there - so, three in a week. This for a road that previously had no incidents.
FiF: What's SMA?
Here's the location (the right-hander, heading north, with the road leading off of it):
Lledrod
and here's a pic of the offending farm equipment (looks like a rake)
FiF: What's SMA?
Here's the location (the right-hander, heading north, with the road leading off of it):
Lledrod
and here's a pic of the offending farm equipment (looks like a rake)
Hi all. Hi dad 
Yeah that's my (and mum's) car.
Well OK I'm not a hugely experienced driver but I'm not stupid (second thoughts...). I'd remembered the curve from the way up and, really, it's a completely different road on the way down. I don't recall that I was speeding - I certainly wasn't going over the limit, but we all know that's not the same thing. I mean that as I entered the bend I didn't get the impression that I was going too fast for it, despite it being damp. It wasn't, at the time, outright raining. Light drizzle, but enough to drench you while you're waiting for the ambulance.
Still, I did indeed abort, abort and I thought the field beyond might make a nice buffer zone. Looking at the 4-foot drop on the other side I might have been mistaken, but it seems to me that going into it headlong was better than going into it sideways.
Well, I chatted to the guy who does the recovery and, from what I remember, he said the motorbike skidded on grit on the road. I'll call back to chat to him about that. It might have just been the sort you expect on roads like that, but there again it might have been loose chippings.
The policeman said that the corner used to be a lot worse than it is now. The recovery guy said there never used to be any accidents. I'll see about finding out if it was just us two or if there've been a spate of them recently.
Up the road - I checked on Monday - are two signs. One says there's a new road layout, which makes no difference to me except that it means a new surface, and a bend-with-side-road warning sign.
Reg: Yeah I was expecting to go through the hedge, once I'd decided to go for the field. I wasn't expecting to be upside down when I did it...
Yeah that's my (and mum's) car.
Well OK I'm not a hugely experienced driver but I'm not stupid (second thoughts...). I'd remembered the curve from the way up and, really, it's a completely different road on the way down. I don't recall that I was speeding - I certainly wasn't going over the limit, but we all know that's not the same thing. I mean that as I entered the bend I didn't get the impression that I was going too fast for it, despite it being damp. It wasn't, at the time, outright raining. Light drizzle, but enough to drench you while you're waiting for the ambulance.
Still, I did indeed abort, abort and I thought the field beyond might make a nice buffer zone. Looking at the 4-foot drop on the other side I might have been mistaken, but it seems to me that going into it headlong was better than going into it sideways.
Well, I chatted to the guy who does the recovery and, from what I remember, he said the motorbike skidded on grit on the road. I'll call back to chat to him about that. It might have just been the sort you expect on roads like that, but there again it might have been loose chippings.
The policeman said that the corner used to be a lot worse than it is now. The recovery guy said there never used to be any accidents. I'll see about finding out if it was just us two or if there've been a spate of them recently.
Up the road - I checked on Monday - are two signs. One says there's a new road layout, which makes no difference to me except that it means a new surface, and a bend-with-side-road warning sign.
Reg: Yeah I was expecting to go through the hedge, once I'd decided to go for the field. I wasn't expecting to be upside down when I did it...
Edited by _Al on Wednesday 18th July 22:17
Really I wouldn't think you would have any recourse. At the end of the day you got it wrong... irrespective of whether it was damp, oil on the road etc. The fact remains you misjudged the road conditions,(bend, surface etc) resulting in the car leaving the road. Once you leave the road you are in an accident situation. It is not reasonable that enyone should consider the placement of objects for your accident ie harrow or say a streetlight etc. The fact this has created more damage is by the by.
This is only my personnal opion but stick your hand up, admit you got it wrong and learn from it. The very fact you left the road and by quite a considerable distance indicates an inappropriate speed for the conditions. I accept the conditions may not have been easily readable eg diesal but non the less you were controlling the car and while under your control it left the road, the fact every car that passed isn't in the ditch would indicate the road works ie people can navigate round it without casting themselves into the field.
The verge is not designed to be a road surface. The answer ought to be tough you crashed and it was unfortunate you hit a harrow but thats luck...
This maynot be what you want to hear but is just my opinion.. and yes when I was 17 I put a Daihatsu in a ditch in wet conditions used the verge and got away with it. Either way the fact I wasn't on the road was my fault, the fact there wasn't a stone/sign/harrow in the verge was luck!
This is only my personnal opion but stick your hand up, admit you got it wrong and learn from it. The very fact you left the road and by quite a considerable distance indicates an inappropriate speed for the conditions. I accept the conditions may not have been easily readable eg diesal but non the less you were controlling the car and while under your control it left the road, the fact every car that passed isn't in the ditch would indicate the road works ie people can navigate round it without casting themselves into the field.
The verge is not designed to be a road surface. The answer ought to be tough you crashed and it was unfortunate you hit a harrow but thats luck...
This maynot be what you want to hear but is just my opinion.. and yes when I was 17 I put a Daihatsu in a ditch in wet conditions used the verge and got away with it. Either way the fact I wasn't on the road was my fault, the fact there wasn't a stone/sign/harrow in the verge was luck!
_Al said:
Hi all. Hi dad
Yeah that's my (and mum's) car.
Well OK I'm not a hugely experienced driver but I'm not stupid (second thoughts...).
Nobody is suggesting you're stupid. Stupidity and inexperience are two completely (although not mutually exclusive) things. Stupidity would mean you'd be having similar accidents on regular occasions without correcting your error. Inexperience shows itself through accidents like this one - the trick is to learn from it, look at yourself and be critical, work out what went wrong, and recognise similar situations in the future before they get to the upside-down-through-the-hedge stage.Yeah that's my (and mum's) car.
Well OK I'm not a hugely experienced driver but I'm not stupid (second thoughts...).
_Al said:
I'd remembered the curve from the way up and, really, it's a completely different road on the way down.
Without meaning to be patronising, they usually are. I'm not entirely sure which way you were travelling on the map, but if you're travelling through the same bend in different directions, it'll always be tighter as a left-hander than as a right-hander, and the correct line in one direction isn't necessarily the correct line in the other direction. Crown camber can make a corner feel completely different in one direction than it does in the other too - in left-handers it can be helpful and in right-handers it can be a hindrance._Al said:
I don't recall that I was speeding - I certainly wasn't going over the limit, but we all know that's not the same thing.
Looking at the bend, I'd hazard a guess that it would be easy to lose control at a speed which would be below the national speed limit. It's an old adage, but it's still true - the speed limit is the maximum permissable speed, not the speed at which it is safe to travel._Al said:
I mean that as I entered the bend I didn't get the impression that I was going too fast for it, despite it being damp. It wasn't, at the time, outright raining. Light drizzle, but enough to drench you while you're waiting for the ambulance.
A wet road surface doesn't make a massive difference to the amount of grip available, but it does make some difference. Reading this... "as I entered the bend I didn't get the impression that I was going too fast for it" suggests very strongly to me that you've misjudged the severity of the bend, and that it's effectively "tightened up" on you. It's a very common error, particularly for new or inexperienced drivers, and I've stuck some links at the bottom of this post to a few articles I wrote recently about cornering and how to assess the severity of bends._Al said:
Still, I did indeed abort, abort and I thought the field beyond might make a nice buffer zone. Looking at the 4-foot drop on the other side I might have been mistaken, but it seems to me that going into it headlong was better than going into it sideways.
Once you've left the black stuff, I'm afraid there are no guarantees. There are all sorts hidden out of view in the verges and hedges surrounding our rural roads. Your job is to stay on the black strip, and if you venture off it, there are countless possibilities. Think yourself lucky that you didn't hit a tree. Trees - even small ones - never move an inch, and I've seen many an errant driver meet a messy end a fraction of a second after finding out what a tree/car interface is like._Al said:
Well, I chatted to the guy who does the recovery and, from what I remember, he said the motorbike skidded on grit on the road. I'll call back to chat to him about that. It might have just been the sort you expect on roads like that, but there again it might have been loose chippings.
Motorcycles and cars are two very different vehicles, with very different handling characteristics and grip levels. It's not realistic to try to compare the two. If there were loose chippings on the road, then it's your responsibilty, as the driver, to spot them and compensate for them. _Al said:
The policeman said that the corner used to be a lot worse than it is now. The recovery guy said there never used to be any accidents. I'll see about finding out if it was just us two or if there've been a spate of them recently.
The recovery bloke might not have been to any other accidents there himself, but his colleagues, or other companies may well have been. He won't be a reliable source of accident statistics. The Officer says that the bend used to be worse - I presume you mean more severe? If that's the case, then opening the bend up should have made it safer than it was before?_Al said:
Up the road - I checked on Monday - are two signs. One says there's a new road layout, which makes no difference to me except that it means a new surface, and a bend-with-side-road warning sign.
You've identified the warning signs then - did you see them before you had the bump, or have you only spotted them afterwards? (Not a dig - a genuine question)._Al said:
Reg: Yeah I was expecting to go through the hedge, once I'd decided to go for the field. I wasn't expecting to be upside down when I did it...
Like I said - leave the black bit and anything can happen.Al, I think you know where the root of the problem is in this particular bump. Yes, there may have been a few loose chippings and a damp road surface, but as a driver, you need to recognise these things and compensate for them. I'm not being a smart-arse, as I went through a similarly destructive steep learning curve when I was a new driver, although I didn't have the foresight to write off my dad's car - I managed to stuff my own - twice.
Learn from it, get yourself back behind the wheel as soon as possible, and keep learning.
Here's the links I mentioned...
Assessing corners 1 (limit point)…
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Assessing corners 2 (without limit point)…
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Linking corners…
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Steering…
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
And what to do if things go tits up again…
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I actually remember watching a TV programme investigating exactly this type of occurrance.
It has since been discovered that a type of road surface which has been used in the last few years has poor traction when it is new - *especially so* when it has a film of water upon it.
From memory, strangely the new road impoved with age, but still took a couple of years to get back to the levels of traction it should.
If it were me I would certainly be following this up - I am sorry that I do not have any more hard and fast exact details, but I thought I would add this as I think it may be helpful.
It has since been discovered that a type of road surface which has been used in the last few years has poor traction when it is new - *especially so* when it has a film of water upon it.
From memory, strangely the new road impoved with age, but still took a couple of years to get back to the levels of traction it should.
If it were me I would certainly be following this up - I am sorry that I do not have any more hard and fast exact details, but I thought I would add this as I think it may be helpful.
I don't particularly want to get into the rights and wrongs of this particular incident. Obviously, the speed was to fast for the conditions - there is a question of whether it was possible to accurately assess those conditions, but that's not really my point. We have what could be a low-traction surface on a bend. Also on that bend is a large lump of metal in a place that someone losing traction could hit. In the case of a biker, that lump of metal could be the difference between K and SI. So, I'm mostly interested to know if anyone is responsible for clearing up such a potentially lethal layout (after all, H&S gets everywhere else...), and, if so, whether making a fuss about this could lead to it getting cleared up. Its a genuine question, to which I don't know the answer - I would have expected (in the current "eliminate all risk" environment) that huge lumps of farm machinery by the side of the road would be a no-no. Certainly one could expect glass, old tyres and all sorts of debris in the verges, but a harrow is not really the sort of thing that accidentally falls off.
[qote=Major Bloodnok]I don't particularly want to get into the rights and wrongs of this particular incident. Obviously, the speed was to fast for the conditions - there is a question of whether it was possible to accurately assess those conditions, but that's not really my point. We have what could be a low-traction surface on a bend. Also on that bend is a large lump of metal in a place that someone losing traction could hit. In the case of a biker, that lump of metal could be the difference between K and SI. So, I'm mostly interested to know if anyone is responsible for clearing up such a potentially lethal layout (after all, H&S gets everywhere else...), and, if so, whether making a fuss about this could lead to it getting cleared up. Its a genuine question, to which I don't know the answer - I would have expected (in the current "eliminate all risk" environment) that huge lumps of farm machinery by the side of the road would be a no-no. Certainly one could expect glass, old tyres and all sorts of debris in the verges, but a harrow is not really the sort of thing that accidentally falls off.
[/quote]
Best take down every tree, lamp post and road sign in case someone stuffs it...
Why can't people take accountability for their actions - at the end of the day, they went into the corner too fast, lost control and stacked it. The OP should be grateful there wasn't a 200 year old oak tree at that spot, rather than trying to look for someone to sue. Trying to blame anything else other than your own driving is pointless and counter productive.
And as a matter of fact, farm machinery is exactly what I would expect to see near farms....
[/quote]
Best take down every tree, lamp post and road sign in case someone stuffs it...
Why can't people take accountability for their actions - at the end of the day, they went into the corner too fast, lost control and stacked it. The OP should be grateful there wasn't a 200 year old oak tree at that spot, rather than trying to look for someone to sue. Trying to blame anything else other than your own driving is pointless and counter productive.
And as a matter of fact, farm machinery is exactly what I would expect to see near farms....
You're right about trees and so on - they do tend to be more visible, though. As I said, neither I nor my son are trying to negate fault. I'm just trying to see what the situation is with regard to rubbish lying around at the side of the road. If it's no-one's responsibility, then that's the answer. I just expected something different in the modern climate of attempting to eliminate all risk. <tongue-in-cheek>Don't talk too loudly about cutting down trees - H&S might just hear you</TiC>
JustinP1 said:
I actually remember watching a TV programme investigating exactly this type of occurrance.
It has since been discovered that a type of road surface which has been used in the last few years has poor traction when it is new - *especially so* when it has a film of water upon it.
From memory, strangely the new road impoved with age, but still took a couple of years to get back to the levels of traction it should.
If it were me I would certainly be following this up - I am sorry that I do not have any more hard and fast exact details, but I thought I would add this as I think it may be helpful.
It has since been discovered that a type of road surface which has been used in the last few years has poor traction when it is new - *especially so* when it has a film of water upon it.
From memory, strangely the new road impoved with age, but still took a couple of years to get back to the levels of traction it should.
If it were me I would certainly be following this up - I am sorry that I do not have any more hard and fast exact details, but I thought I would add this as I think it may be helpful.
That's why there is a spate of slippery surface warning signs around with the extra bit underneath saying "New road surface".
ewenm said:
JustinP1 said:
I actually remember watching a TV programme investigating exactly this type of occurrance.
It has since been discovered that a type of road surface which has been used in the last few years has poor traction when it is new - *especially so* when it has a film of water upon it.
From memory, strangely the new road impoved with age, but still took a couple of years to get back to the levels of traction it should.
If it were me I would certainly be following this up - I am sorry that I do not have any more hard and fast exact details, but I thought I would add this as I think it may be helpful.
It has since been discovered that a type of road surface which has been used in the last few years has poor traction when it is new - *especially so* when it has a film of water upon it.
From memory, strangely the new road impoved with age, but still took a couple of years to get back to the levels of traction it should.
If it were me I would certainly be following this up - I am sorry that I do not have any more hard and fast exact details, but I thought I would add this as I think it may be helpful.
That's why there is a spate of slippery surface warning signs around with the extra bit underneath saying "New road surface".
Basically its a bit like normal asphalt but with a high content of binder filling in all the voids. There are some theories that at high loads, braking/cornering the mastic binder starts to melt and reduces the friction markedly. Its why you can see very impressive 'skid marks' on newly laid roads, nobody hs actually locked a wheel the mark is not rubber its the melted road binder material.
Results and opinions vary and this seems to be due to the different quality of the laid road surface. That seems to be you get opinions that say, what is all the fuss about we've tested it and found this, yet others say, "But our tests show this." Plus we all know how carefully road surfaces are laid by the boys from the blackstuff.
What's worse is that when approving this surface for use the TRL didn't make any checks on the wet road grip. They admitted that on TV, probably the programme justinp1 saw.
When I see signs warning of new road surface, with or without slippery road signs, and the surface looks like a very smooth uniform dark grey colour, I peg it right back because chances are it's SMA.
Not trying to justify the grovel into the undergrowth just asking the Major's question really.
FiF
All this talk of hazards hidden by the side of the road reminds me of an odd incident from back when I was young and on fire.
It was the morning after a particularly gruesome party in Basildon, I was being driven home as I had what can only be described as the mother of all hangovers, having consumed about three bottles of red wine and fallen asleep with my head on a radiator.
We were pootling along when a strange feeling came over me and I asked my friend who was driving to pull over so I could rid myself of the evil spirits within.
So having pulled into a layby somewhere in the middle of darkest Essex, I selected an innocent looking hedge in which to purge my soul of the turmultuous devils, only to find a transient gentleman had set up home inside the hedge, complete with plywood roof, cooking equipment and all the mod cons you'd expect to find in a well appointed hedge.
Needless to say it put me right off my stroke (so to speak) and rather than de-spoil this chap's abode I returned to the car, still feeling like a pig ahd sh4t in my head but now slightly confused and convinced that I was hallucinating as well.
So if you do find yourself mid corner and running out of talent, please spare a thought for what, or who might be living in the hedge you're about to plough through backwards.
Regards
Dave
It was the morning after a particularly gruesome party in Basildon, I was being driven home as I had what can only be described as the mother of all hangovers, having consumed about three bottles of red wine and fallen asleep with my head on a radiator.
We were pootling along when a strange feeling came over me and I asked my friend who was driving to pull over so I could rid myself of the evil spirits within.
So having pulled into a layby somewhere in the middle of darkest Essex, I selected an innocent looking hedge in which to purge my soul of the turmultuous devils, only to find a transient gentleman had set up home inside the hedge, complete with plywood roof, cooking equipment and all the mod cons you'd expect to find in a well appointed hedge.
Needless to say it put me right off my stroke (so to speak) and rather than de-spoil this chap's abode I returned to the car, still feeling like a pig ahd sh4t in my head but now slightly confused and convinced that I was hallucinating as well.
So if you do find yourself mid corner and running out of talent, please spare a thought for what, or who might be living in the hedge you're about to plough through backwards.
Regards
Dave
R_U_LOCAL said:
The recovery bloke might not have been to any other accidents there himself, but his colleagues, or other companies may well have been. He won't be a reliable source of accident statistics. The Officer says that the bend used to be worse - I presume you mean more severe? If that's the case, then opening the bend up should have made it safer than it was before?
Which is why I was wondering if it actually worked. The older bend might have had a more obvious curve to it, making people lose a lot more speed than the current one. From recollection, which is quite hazy, I could see a lot of the curve - the limit point, as your articles call it, was quite a way around the curve and, to be honest, I couldn't say how rapidly it was approaching. But the limit point is one of the first things dad taught me about. I'd say the fact it was on a hill made that limit point appear a lot further away than it actually was.R_U_LOCAL said:
You've identified the warning signs then - did you see them before you had the bump, or have you only spotted them afterwards? (Not a dig - a genuine question).
I saw the warning sign on Monday. I definitely saw the road layout sign on Friday because as soon as I saw it I started preparing for the bend, so if I did see the warning sign on Friday it passed me by as already noted.R_U_LOCAL said:
Al, I think you know where the root of the problem is in this particular bump. Yes, there may have been a few loose chippings and a damp road surface, but as a driver, you need to recognise these things and compensate for them. I'm not being a smart-arse, as I went through a similarly destructive steep learning curve when I was a new driver, although I didn't have the foresight to write off my dad's car - I managed to stuff my own - twice.
Learn from it, get yourself back behind the wheel as soon as possible, and keep learning.
I do appreciate the honesty. I didn't expect any less from here! I've kind of already accepted that it was a misjudgement of the road. Although there may have been various factors about the road contributing to the skid, it boils down to inexperience and misjudgement.Learn from it, get yourself back behind the wheel as soon as possible, and keep learning.
So I leave myself wondering: If there hadn't been a field there, would I have purposely left the road? Probably not - I reckon I would have tried to follow it, and I would have ended up sideways in trees. But then if there'd been trees, would I have had a better idea of how sharp it was and thus slowed down more? No use speculating; it didn't happen that way.
So as dad said, my main concern is whether the presence of that harrow made it worse. The line of the photo shows that the passenger side hit the harrow, which'll be why we ended up on the roof. Is the council responsible for that not being there? Especially since it was almost invisible in the dark. I didn't notice it even when we were out of the car getting rained on; it wasn't until the police officer investigated with his torch that I knew it was there. And if it had been on the farmer's land then I wouldn't take umbridge, because, when driving into a field, one can reasonably expect to hit things like tractors, cows and log cabins.
_Al said:
So I leave myself wondering: If there hadn't been a field there, would I have purposely left the road? Probably not - I reckon I would have tried to follow it, and I would have ended up sideways in trees. But then if there'd been trees, would I have had a better idea of how sharp it was and thus slowed down more? No use speculating; it didn't happen that way.
Did you really know the field was there? It look like you are saying you stuck it in the field on purpose, but by the looks of the pic above, you punched the hole in the hedge, so how did you know what was on the other side of it, in the rain, and in the dark (which also wasn't in the original post!).So two new bits of info. It was dark, and you ended up on the roof. Add to this it was raining, and I'd say the farm machinery on the side of the road wasn't the root cause of this incident!
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