Blame for TVR's current position?
Discussion
I was in the pub last night (as you do) with a mate and we had a heated discussion about who or what was the single biggest impact to cause TVR's current state of affairs. My thoughts are that it was the S6 engine that started the ball rolling.
Now, I'm not saying that the S6 is a particularily bad engine (having previously owned 2 good ones), but I do think the earlier engines that were prematurely blowing up did nothing for TVR's reputation. It was then made worse by the fact that TVR wouldn't honour rebuilds because of supposedly 'owner neglect'.
My mate simply thinks that the fault lies with NS full stop.
Just wondered what other peoples thoughts are?
I know its all very easy to blame NS and his merry men, but in reality the company was in the s**t before they came along, they just happened to have been the worse people to try and turn it around.
Does anyone genuinely believe that TVR's best days are yet to come?
Now, I'm not saying that the S6 is a particularily bad engine (having previously owned 2 good ones), but I do think the earlier engines that were prematurely blowing up did nothing for TVR's reputation. It was then made worse by the fact that TVR wouldn't honour rebuilds because of supposedly 'owner neglect'.
My mate simply thinks that the fault lies with NS full stop.
Just wondered what other peoples thoughts are?
I know its all very easy to blame NS and his merry men, but in reality the company was in the s**t before they came along, they just happened to have been the worse people to try and turn it around.
Does anyone genuinely believe that TVR's best days are yet to come?
ddgy before ns tooke over, but propably recoverable - with new owners ie 'fix' the engine publically, communicate it - IT would have needed a new owner to do that, marketing wise.
there niche and price bracket had become croweded, etc..
However NS wold appear to have done everything wrong that you would have thought possible, and then come up with new ways to go wrong, that you would think unbelievable for any credible, or basically even competant businessman.
B
there niche and price bracket had become croweded, etc..
However NS wold appear to have done everything wrong that you would have thought possible, and then come up with new ways to go wrong, that you would think unbelievable for any credible, or basically even competant businessman.
B
I think its too simple to blame it all on X or Y there were many factors that impacted on TVR's downfall..
1. Competition from the mainstream manufacturers raising their game which reduced the no. of potential buyers.
2. These main stream cars were also undercutting the price of a TVR as well.
3. Engine Reliability denting peoples confidence in the product.
4. Poor response from TVR in counteracting the negative press item 3 recieved.
5. Poor PR failing to give the right message to customers (actually zero PR).
6. Not providing an alternative power plant whilst sorting out item 3.
7. No money to sort out item 3.
NS took over and started in the right direction then;
8. NS not listening to respected advisors in the early days.
9. Broken promises, u turns on decisions and blatent lies from management.
10. NS leaving a couple of muppets in charge and not looking beyond what they were telling him.
11. Someone not looking at the small print in the sale of TVR (ludacrous rent on property etc etc)
12. Repeat of items 1 to 6.
At the end of the day imho it comes down to a combination of poor PR, poor decision making, lack of Money and increasing competition. failings that apply to both PW & NS
1. Competition from the mainstream manufacturers raising their game which reduced the no. of potential buyers.
2. These main stream cars were also undercutting the price of a TVR as well.
3. Engine Reliability denting peoples confidence in the product.
4. Poor response from TVR in counteracting the negative press item 3 recieved.
5. Poor PR failing to give the right message to customers (actually zero PR).
6. Not providing an alternative power plant whilst sorting out item 3.
7. No money to sort out item 3.
NS took over and started in the right direction then;
8. NS not listening to respected advisors in the early days.
9. Broken promises, u turns on decisions and blatent lies from management.
10. NS leaving a couple of muppets in charge and not looking beyond what they were telling him.
11. Someone not looking at the small print in the sale of TVR (ludacrous rent on property etc etc)
12. Repeat of items 1 to 6.
At the end of the day imho it comes down to a combination of poor PR, poor decision making, lack of Money and increasing competition. failings that apply to both PW & NS
Some very good points by Bluebottle.
Also, in the mid 90's no other car maker could produce something as quick as Griff / Chim / Cerbera for anywhere near the cost.
They had proven reliable engines. They were fast, loud, looked good & did what they said on the box.
Also, the economy was very good, so there were lots of people with bonus's / pay rises etc with plenty of money to splash out on a new car.
Roll on 10 years. PW sells company to NS.
There is a reliability issue with engines. Worse still, the public ( rightly or wrongly ) believe the factory are doing sod all about it.
The economy has slowed up, so there are far fewer people with "loads of money". Worse still, the cheapest TVR is now MUCH more expencive.
If you can afford this price level, then you have the choice of several car makers who can give you that level of performance, and the engines don't blow up. There are also rumers about TVR's spending months at dealers as they cannot get the parts from the factory to repair them after they have broken down. Also ( and this is very subjective ) the cars styling has gone very aggresive which MAY have put off some potential buyers.
I personaly beleive the company was not in a good state when NS took over, but would like to think that a good management team with the right person in charge could have kept the success going. However, NS did make some desicions that seemed a little strange. Had I been in charge ( which I wasn't, and don't know other pressures etc ) I would have done 2 things very differently. Firstly, I would have got a good press officer, and made sure he bent over backwards to keep the magazine editors happy. Lots of info about whats going on, lots of demo cars, etc. Keep the press happy, and you will get more PR than any amount of advertising. Shut them out, and you have nothing. Secondly, I would have made sure all the engine problems were sorted ASAP, but in the mean time, make sure all the broken engines are fixed ASAP at zero cost and minimum inconvinience for the owner. What the company badly needed was repeat customers who bought a new car every 2 or 3 years. There were loads in the 90's. Piss them off, and they are gone ( forever ) to another car maker
Sorry for spelling etc
Also, in the mid 90's no other car maker could produce something as quick as Griff / Chim / Cerbera for anywhere near the cost.
They had proven reliable engines. They were fast, loud, looked good & did what they said on the box.
Also, the economy was very good, so there were lots of people with bonus's / pay rises etc with plenty of money to splash out on a new car.
Roll on 10 years. PW sells company to NS.
There is a reliability issue with engines. Worse still, the public ( rightly or wrongly ) believe the factory are doing sod all about it.
The economy has slowed up, so there are far fewer people with "loads of money". Worse still, the cheapest TVR is now MUCH more expencive.
If you can afford this price level, then you have the choice of several car makers who can give you that level of performance, and the engines don't blow up. There are also rumers about TVR's spending months at dealers as they cannot get the parts from the factory to repair them after they have broken down. Also ( and this is very subjective ) the cars styling has gone very aggresive which MAY have put off some potential buyers.
I personaly beleive the company was not in a good state when NS took over, but would like to think that a good management team with the right person in charge could have kept the success going. However, NS did make some desicions that seemed a little strange. Had I been in charge ( which I wasn't, and don't know other pressures etc ) I would have done 2 things very differently. Firstly, I would have got a good press officer, and made sure he bent over backwards to keep the magazine editors happy. Lots of info about whats going on, lots of demo cars, etc. Keep the press happy, and you will get more PR than any amount of advertising. Shut them out, and you have nothing. Secondly, I would have made sure all the engine problems were sorted ASAP, but in the mean time, make sure all the broken engines are fixed ASAP at zero cost and minimum inconvinience for the owner. What the company badly needed was repeat customers who bought a new car every 2 or 3 years. There were loads in the 90's. Piss them off, and they are gone ( forever ) to another car maker
Sorry for spelling etc
Bluebottle and Bigdunc, I think you are both spot on with what you say. The thing is, when PW took over the company back in the 80's it was in dire straits. The company was helped hugely by the 280S - which was basically a proven and successful old design brought up to date with (then) new components.
In addidion to the points you made, would it not have been a good idea for NS to do something similar such as re-manufacture the Griffith - albeit slightly updated with maybe a small block Ford V8 or Chevy LS1 powering it. By keeping it priced competitively, it would've surely helped get TVR back on the map and more importantly previous TVR owners (who kept the company afloat before) would've surely been more inclined to return to the marque.
In addidion to the points you made, would it not have been a good idea for NS to do something similar such as re-manufacture the Griffith - albeit slightly updated with maybe a small block Ford V8 or Chevy LS1 powering it. By keeping it priced competitively, it would've surely helped get TVR back on the map and more importantly previous TVR owners (who kept the company afloat before) would've surely been more inclined to return to the marque.
RIP.theese are all very good valid points but..
im no expert but looking at the brief tvr history it would seem that it runs in cycles with each owner of the brand having there own similar ammounts of success and failure.
taking into account all factors ,not only engine and pr but the state of the economy,housing,interest rates etc competition from larger more reliable manufacturers,it would seem that the tvr we know, even in good health would not survive,so for now it is dead.but as it has proved in the past with the right owner/right thinking and some new ideas it would not be inconceivable for tvr to return to the top of british sports car manufacturing.just not yet.
im no expert but looking at the brief tvr history it would seem that it runs in cycles with each owner of the brand having there own similar ammounts of success and failure.
taking into account all factors ,not only engine and pr but the state of the economy,housing,interest rates etc competition from larger more reliable manufacturers,it would seem that the tvr we know, even in good health would not survive,so for now it is dead.but as it has proved in the past with the right owner/right thinking and some new ideas it would not be inconceivable for tvr to return to the top of british sports car manufacturing.just not yet.
TVR had a boom in the 90's. This was the exception, not the rule. If you look at their history, every other decade they have been a small manufacture, and just about kept financialy afloat.
Look at every other low volume car maker. It is a very competative and tough business to be in. Even the big names struggle to make money selling everyday cars to thousands of people. Then you have half a dozen or so really small companies trying to sell ( more expencive ) cars to just a handful of customers.
PW started his success by realising a lot of customers did not like the looks of the wedges, and a lot of potential customers could not afford them. The S overcame both of these at a stroke. The timing was good as there was not a lot else similar you could buy at the time, and the Griff really built on that start.
If NS had introduced a ( relatively ) cheaper TVR with nice simple clean styling and proven engine it would have sold in reasonable numbers and given him an income. It need not have been the fastest car ever. With the income from that he could have sorted the speed 6 engine out, and just sold the ( much ) faster TVR's at a lot more money( i.e profitably ). Because of the entry level car, it would not have mattered if the expencive ones only sold in very low numbers.
Look at every other low volume car maker. It is a very competative and tough business to be in. Even the big names struggle to make money selling everyday cars to thousands of people. Then you have half a dozen or so really small companies trying to sell ( more expencive ) cars to just a handful of customers.
PW started his success by realising a lot of customers did not like the looks of the wedges, and a lot of potential customers could not afford them. The S overcame both of these at a stroke. The timing was good as there was not a lot else similar you could buy at the time, and the Griff really built on that start.
If NS had introduced a ( relatively ) cheaper TVR with nice simple clean styling and proven engine it would have sold in reasonable numbers and given him an income. It need not have been the fastest car ever. With the income from that he could have sorted the speed 6 engine out, and just sold the ( much ) faster TVR's at a lot more money( i.e profitably ). Because of the entry level car, it would not have mattered if the expencive ones only sold in very low numbers.
I agree with much of what has been written above and while I agree that low volume sport car manufacture is a difficult business to be in I don't buy the argument that it's all but impossible nowadays. Truth is that there are more people than ever with the money to indulge in a performance car and the mass market competition continue to produce anodyne designs. I think the key thing is to get the styling right (as for example Aston have done since the DB7) and as Morgan have always done. There are loads of 30 and 40 something people who would jump at a (reasonably reliable) handbuilt English sports car suitable for an aspriring Kenneth More/Terry Thomas/Dirk Bogarde type but updated for the 21st century - in short a modern equivalent of the TR3 or MGA. I suspect that many of us who buy TVR's regard ourselves as connosseurs of the finer things in life but on a budget - we prefer fountain pens to roller balls, we prefer tea to coffee, love English country pubs and prefer British films to American blockbusters and know from experience that vinyl sounds better than CD so have a significant investnment in a quality (British) turntable.
I think TVR needs to target that market and they would be assured of success - after all they only need to sell 1000-2000 cars a year which is a drop in the ocean.
Tally-ho chaps!
Saxon
I think TVR needs to target that market and they would be assured of success - after all they only need to sell 1000-2000 cars a year which is a drop in the ocean.
Tally-ho chaps!
Saxon
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