Track day heads
Discussion
Can you elaborate on what a track day head is ?
As for lightened flywheels...depends on car etc.
If extremely light, they can affect idle quality, and road manners when pulling away. More easily stalled in some cases.
Depends how light you go. Also, lightening standard flywheels too much can be dangerous.
As for lightened flywheels...depends on car etc.
If extremely light, they can affect idle quality, and road manners when pulling away. More easily stalled in some cases.
Depends how light you go. Also, lightening standard flywheels too much can be dangerous.
Sorry please excuse my ignorance - i dont know anything about engines!
There is a tuning company offering upgrades for the cologne V6. They offer mild road, fast road and track days heads for in increasing amound of money. I assume it is the cylinder head.
Here is a link:
http://www.cologneengines.com/ford%20cologne%20v6%...
cheers for the help.
There is a tuning company offering upgrades for the cologne V6. They offer mild road, fast road and track days heads for in increasing amound of money. I assume it is the cylinder head.
Here is a link:
http://www.cologneengines.com/ford%20cologne%20v6%...
cheers for the help.
Ahh ok. Its just a tuning company attaching stupid names to their heads.
Best thing to do, is speak to them, and tell them what you intend to use the car for. If you do change the heads, you will need to re-tune the engine afterwards, to optimise the engine after the mods.. Whether that be carbs, dizzy's or efi....depends on what you have.
Best thing to do, is speak to them, and tell them what you intend to use the car for. If you do change the heads, you will need to re-tune the engine afterwards, to optimise the engine after the mods.. Whether that be carbs, dizzy's or efi....depends on what you have.
Given that it's above 'mild road' and 'fast road' specification, it's probably what most people would consider to be 'Stage 3' (effectively 'budget race') tune.
As Stevie suggests, such cylinder head modifications on their own will have limited effect on either performance or tractability; you need to match them to a 'package' of modifications, including revised cam profile, carburation, ignition and exhaust.
Bigger capacity engines such as the Cologne won't suffer as much as small capacity 'screamers', but as a general rule you'll still find that a typical 'Stage 3' engine is a bit of a pain to drive on the road. It won't have much bottom end torque, so it won't drive smoothly if you get stuck in crawling traffic, you'll have to give it plenty of revs and slip the clutch in when moving off from standstill, and it will have a lumpy idle.
If you tell the engine builder what you want from the car, though, he may be able to spec. it with a camshaft that sacrifices a little top-end power for more torque and driveability.
Ditto with lightened flywheel... main effects are to make the idle less even and the engine easier to stall. The engine will feel more racy and free-revving when you blip the throttle ate traffic lights, but the actual effect on performance will be pretty minimal. You gain a little in acceleration, because there is less rotational inertia for the engine to overcome, but it's a small enough gain that I'd only normally contemplate a lightened flywheel for race use (not even trackdays...) since in any other application the odd tenth of a second isn't worth the negatives...
As Stevie suggests, such cylinder head modifications on their own will have limited effect on either performance or tractability; you need to match them to a 'package' of modifications, including revised cam profile, carburation, ignition and exhaust.
Bigger capacity engines such as the Cologne won't suffer as much as small capacity 'screamers', but as a general rule you'll still find that a typical 'Stage 3' engine is a bit of a pain to drive on the road. It won't have much bottom end torque, so it won't drive smoothly if you get stuck in crawling traffic, you'll have to give it plenty of revs and slip the clutch in when moving off from standstill, and it will have a lumpy idle.
If you tell the engine builder what you want from the car, though, he may be able to spec. it with a camshaft that sacrifices a little top-end power for more torque and driveability.
Ditto with lightened flywheel... main effects are to make the idle less even and the engine easier to stall. The engine will feel more racy and free-revving when you blip the throttle ate traffic lights, but the actual effect on performance will be pretty minimal. You gain a little in acceleration, because there is less rotational inertia for the engine to overcome, but it's a small enough gain that I'd only normally contemplate a lightened flywheel for race use (not even trackdays...) since in any other application the odd tenth of a second isn't worth the negatives...
Interesting to hear you say you don't think lightened flywheels are worth it. With a mini (an admittedly light weight application) for every 1lb removed from the flywheel, it was the equivalent of something like 35 lbs off the car. The effect is reduced as you go up the gears though, so may only be 2-3lbs off the car in 4th. Always worth it IMO though.
Snake the Sniper said:
Interesting to hear you say you don't think lightened flywheels are worth it. With a mini (an admittedly light weight application) for every 1lb removed from the flywheel, it was the equivalent of something like 35 lbs off the car. The effect is reduced as you go up the gears though, so may only be 2-3lbs off the car in 4th. Always worth it IMO though.
I think that is an exaggeration, and will depend on gear ratios etc.These high examples, will only apply in the lowest of gears, and drop to virtually nothing in the higher gears.
Snake the Sniper said:
Interesting to hear you say you don't think lightened flywheels are worth it. With a mini (an admittedly light weight application) for every 1lb removed from the flywheel, it was the equivalent of something like 35 lbs off the car. The effect is reduced as you go up the gears though, so may only be 2-3lbs off the car in 4th. Always worth it IMO though.
Lets assume your figures are correct (and like Steve, I think you'll find that the figures usually bandied about are rather exaggerated)... equivalent to 35lbs off the car in first, maybe, where it's all but irrelevant because the limiting factor is traction. 2-3lbs off the car in 4th... equivalent to the driver skipping lunch or a couple of litres less fuel in the tank?Against which you have to balance the monetary cost, detrimental effect on idle and low speed drivability and (since you mention Minis!) the risk that the lightened flyweel will explode and remove you're chances of ever having children - if you're lucky; if you're not it might just kill you stone dead. I had a friend whose hillclimb Mini detonated a lightened flywheel a few years ago... not a pretty sight. He was incredibly lucky - all the fragments exited in a forward direction but they punched a nice big hole out though the bellhousing, bonnet and front of the car.
Like I said, it's a valid modification if you are racing and a few tenths a lap might make the difference between winnning and losing. Unless it's for competition purposes, though, realistically a few fractions of a second here and there don't matter doodley squat and, even if they did, there are more effective ways of obtaining them with fewer detrimental side effects.
Spend the money on better brake pads, tyres or dampers - you'll see bigger returns and your car won't be transformed into a quivering neurotic every time it encounters a traffic queue!
I know that lightened cast iron flywheels can give up, but do steel/ally ones? I ask as I've not heard of any going, but that doesn't mean that haven't. My lightened cast one spins to 8.5k quite happily. A lot of it depends just how light you've gone, and how it's been done. I have to agree with low end drivability on spicy engines (mine would never have a steady idle anyway without injection), but have never had a lighter flywheel on a more normal engine, so don't know how big the effect is.
Oh, as for grip being an issue, with the gearing mine had (an ex Metro Turbo Cup 'box with a very long 1st and a 3.1 diff) and what were/are quite nice tyres I rarely had a problem with wheel spin, it just buggered off down the road! I do appreciate this may not be the case all the time though, especially with a closer/sprint 'box and diff.
Oh, as for grip being an issue, with the gearing mine had (an ex Metro Turbo Cup 'box with a very long 1st and a 3.1 diff) and what were/are quite nice tyres I rarely had a problem with wheel spin, it just buggered off down the road! I do appreciate this may not be the case all the time though, especially with a closer/sprint 'box and diff.
Edited by Snake the Sniper on Wednesday 25th July 23:20
No, properly designed steel/ally flywheels shouldn't give trouble. It's cast iron that can be a problem at high engine revs.
The problem with cast iron ones is that they do spin to 8.5K rpm 'quite happily', as you put it, right up to the millisecond that there's a big BANG!!! and the fragments disembowell you...
What do you expect? Creaks and groans or steadily increasing vibration to give you a nice warning that they're about to explode?!
As Bill Sollis (a man who knows a bit about racing Minis) said: 'If you can't afford a proper steel flywheel, you shouldn't be racing'. Period.
Tall diff ratio and 1st gear means that you won't be getting your '35lbs' advantage, anyway, of course, because the overall ratio will be closer to what most cars will experience in 2nd gear and the actual benefit in terms of reduced inertia is multiplied out by whatever gearing is applied... taller gearing = less benefit. If you can't make the wheels spin in a rally spec Mini, though, you're not being brutal enough - whatever the gearing!
The problem with cast iron ones is that they do spin to 8.5K rpm 'quite happily', as you put it, right up to the millisecond that there's a big BANG!!! and the fragments disembowell you...
What do you expect? Creaks and groans or steadily increasing vibration to give you a nice warning that they're about to explode?!
As Bill Sollis (a man who knows a bit about racing Minis) said: 'If you can't afford a proper steel flywheel, you shouldn't be racing'. Period.
Tall diff ratio and 1st gear means that you won't be getting your '35lbs' advantage, anyway, of course, because the overall ratio will be closer to what most cars will experience in 2nd gear and the actual benefit in terms of reduced inertia is multiplied out by whatever gearing is applied... taller gearing = less benefit. If you can't make the wheels spin in a rally spec Mini, though, you're not being brutal enough - whatever the gearing!
Sam_68 said:
No, properly designed steel/ally flywheels shouldn't give trouble. It's cast iron that can be a problem at high engine revs.
shouldn't being the operative word.Lets not forget, for drag racing in the US, you need SFI rated flywheels at a certain level.
then you have fully enclosed "blowproof" bellhousings. Yes, this is extreme, but they wouldnt have them if failures never occured.
A blowproof bellhousing fully encapsulates the flywheel/clutch assembly, to contain any failures.
So while failures in the correct parts are rare, they do happen.
But as I say, this is extreme. Its mostly on launch they explode I think.
stevieturbo said:
I think that is an exaggeration, and will depend on gear ratios etc.
Take a look at David Bakers (Pumaracing) view. He susgests 39kg for an "average" car in 1st gear, tailing off to 3kg in 5th.Mr2Mike said:
stevieturbo said:
I think that is an exaggeration, and will depend on gear ratios etc.
Take a look at David Bakers (Pumaracing) view. He susgests 39kg for an "average" car in 1st gear, tailing off to 3kg in 5th.Just dont think it will give you a massive performance gain. Gains, if any will be incredibly small.
That Daddy said:
Dont take to much off a Cologne flywheel it will be horrible,the engine as never been known for its torque
,and yes i speak from experience but you can get it to rev
I think then from reading this thready ill probably have a standard flywheel but have fast road heads as the car will be bored out to a 3.5 i dont think the torque will be too lacking (especially in a 950kg car) ,and yes i speak from experience but you can get it to revcheers
I see that the cologneengines.com site is talking of upgrading the 2.8 Cologne - you have a 2.9 engine. Not sure if that makes any difference to them.
Regards the flywheel - when I did my body off rebuild of my S3 in the spring mine had the 2.8 flywheel that weighs in at 8kg. The 2.9 flywheel is something like 11Kg so assuming your is the same as mine then you're 3 Kg down already. I have read in the Burton catalogue that the 2.8 doesn't like a lightened flywheel so sticking with a stock 2.8 one may be the way forward.
Looking at the prices of what you're proposing, have you considered using a 2.9 Cosworth engine?
Alternatively, how about rebuilding the engine with a supercharger in mind. Something like a Rotrex unit should fit under the bonnet and give a bit more oomph. If you go that route then let me know as it is something that I'm thinking about.
Regards the flywheel - when I did my body off rebuild of my S3 in the spring mine had the 2.8 flywheel that weighs in at 8kg. The 2.9 flywheel is something like 11Kg so assuming your is the same as mine then you're 3 Kg down already. I have read in the Burton catalogue that the 2.8 doesn't like a lightened flywheel so sticking with a stock 2.8 one may be the way forward.
Looking at the prices of what you're proposing, have you considered using a 2.9 Cosworth engine?
Alternatively, how about rebuilding the engine with a supercharger in mind. Something like a Rotrex unit should fit under the bonnet and give a bit more oomph. If you go that route then let me know as it is something that I'm thinking about.
tomTVR said:
That Daddy said:
Dont take to much off a Cologne flywheel it will be horrible,the engine as never been known for its torque,and yes i speak from experience but you can get it to rev
I think then from reading this thready ill probably have a standard flywheel but have fast road heads as the car will be bored out to a 3.5 i dont think the torque will be too lacking (especially in a 950kg car) ,and yes i speak from experience but you can get it to revcheers
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