Europa success?
Discussion
The only cars i've seen are the ex-demo or ex-Lotus ones on dealer forecourts....never seen one on the road.
Looks like the guys at Hethel got their sums wrong with this one, shame cos its actually a good idea well executed - just misinterpretation of it's target market I guess.
I'd say most of their wanted sales are going in the general direction of BMW (Z4), Porsche (Boxster), Audi (TT/TTR) Saab (9-3 Conv) or the odd one or two to Alfa (Spider).
Much sadness all round
Looks like the guys at Hethel got their sums wrong with this one, shame cos its actually a good idea well executed - just misinterpretation of it's target market I guess.
I'd say most of their wanted sales are going in the general direction of BMW (Z4), Porsche (Boxster), Audi (TT/TTR) Saab (9-3 Conv) or the odd one or two to Alfa (Spider).
Much sadness all round
S Works said:
A total, unmitigated balls-up of the highest order.
Being a bit Harsh on Lotus aren't we Tim?Given the amount of time, money and general effort some put into blinging up the interiors of their Elises/Exiges I don't blame Lotus for bringing out a 'softer' VX based model. I just thing the 'Business Class' thing was misjudged. Trying to pitch a Lotus against the Germans was an error. Different type of buyer IMO (the success of the TT Mk1 is testament to that).
The price wouldn't have helped either.
TIPPER said:
S Works said:
A total, unmitigated balls-up of the highest order.
Being a bit Harsh on Lotus aren't we Tim?Given the amount of time, money and general effort some put into blinging up the interiors of their Elises/Exiges I don't blame Lotus for bringing out a 'softer' VX based model. I just thing the 'Business Class' thing was misjudged. Trying to pitch a Lotus against the Germans was an error. Different type of buyer IMO (the success of the TT Mk1 is testament to that).
The price wouldn't have helped either.
I have to say if it was my money I'd go for the Z4C, looks like a better alrounder. To go upmarket Lotus will need more refinement and a 6 cylinder engine.
Lotus are bloody good at what they do... ie. building something that goes and handles so sublimely that owners don't mind the fact that it is quite badly built....
Building the Europa and trying to sell it to a market used to Cocksters, Z4's and SLK's is just asking for trouble... these people are just not going to understand when a hose pops off on the motorway or the window falls out of it's guides.
Lotus are in a unique position where they can knock out shoddy product and pass it off as an 'eccentricity' of the marque or an 'extension' of the lifestyle... Full marks to them, but I really hope they don't ruin themselves by spunking money up the wall trying to be who they're not.
Just my 2 yen's worths
Building the Europa and trying to sell it to a market used to Cocksters, Z4's and SLK's is just asking for trouble... these people are just not going to understand when a hose pops off on the motorway or the window falls out of it's guides.
Lotus are in a unique position where they can knock out shoddy product and pass it off as an 'eccentricity' of the marque or an 'extension' of the lifestyle... Full marks to them, but I really hope they don't ruin themselves by spunking money up the wall trying to be who they're not.
Just my 2 yen's worths
Toxic, Fittser: Agreed. Going up against the Germans wasn't clever, imo. Most of the buyers or the TT, Boxster and Z4 aren't that demanding. I remember a Porsche main dealer telling me that over half of their buyers don't bother with a test drive. I do remember thinking at the time of its launch that 400 buyers a year wasn't such a big ask and that there must be that number that could be tempted away from the Germans by the Lotus driving dynamics. Seems I was wrong on that but I still think if the car had been launched with a different marketing message then it might have been a greater success.
I suppose you either 'get' Lotus or you don't. I don't just 'get' Lotus, I love them and therefore am willing to forgive the car almost anything. That said nothing's dropped off my S1 and its eight years old now! Keep it up Lotus.
I suppose you either 'get' Lotus or you don't. I don't just 'get' Lotus, I love them and therefore am willing to forgive the car almost anything. That said nothing's dropped off my S1 and its eight years old now! Keep it up Lotus.
Frank987 said:
My feelings when first launched was that the Europa was too near the Elise and answered a question that was never asked.
A wasted opportunity by Lotus I feel. The fact it wasn't half as good looking as the Elise didn't help!
Ditto to this. I've never driven one, but I've sat in an Europa and it's almost as difficult getting in/out as an Elise/Exige - a big turn off for your 'practical' sportscar buyer, and it seems hardly any bigger inside. Not surprising I suppose if it's on the same chassis. The cockpit looks generally very Elise-like. Added to this the marmite looks and performance which is not that special by today's standards. I've seen a fair few reviews, not one was complimentary. Let's see what this new 'Eagle' project comes out like (I'm dying to know - anyone have any info?), the new Esprit seems a way off still...A wasted opportunity by Lotus I feel. The fact it wasn't half as good looking as the Elise didn't help!
TIPPER said:
S Works said:
A total, unmitigated balls-up of the highest order.
Being a bit Harsh on Lotus aren't we Tim?Given the amount of time, money and general effort some put into blinging up the interiors of their Elises/Exiges I don't blame Lotus for bringing out a 'softer' VX based model. I just thing the 'Business Class' thing was misjudged. Trying to pitch a Lotus against the Germans was an error. Different type of buyer IMO (the success of the TT Mk1 is testament to that).
The price wouldn't have helped either.
My beef with it Tip is that it could have been a great car from the off. I personally love the styling but it irritates the hell out of me that, as toxic rightly notes, Lotus can't afford to put out half-baked product. The engine map was 2nd rate, the gearbox throw was awful, the interior cheap and plasticky, and on those 3 things alone you will not tempt people into a 30 grand car. Period.
The revised version (so I'm reliably informed), will be a much better proposition, and I sincerely hope it sells and revives the Europa name.
What grates is that the car is now tarnished already, and I imagine it will be more difficult to persuade people into it because of that alone.
Lessons not learned - do not release a half-finished car to market. Wait a few months, hold more focus groups to tweak the final product, get it bang-on, sell more and make sure the Mags say "wow".
S Works said:
TIPPER said:
S Works said:
A total, unmitigated balls-up of the highest order.
Being a bit Harsh on Lotus aren't we Tim?Given the amount of time, money and general effort some put into blinging up the interiors of their Elises/Exiges I don't blame Lotus for bringing out a 'softer' VX based model. I just thing the 'Business Class' thing was misjudged. Trying to pitch a Lotus against the Germans was an error. Different type of buyer IMO (the success of the TT Mk1 is testament to that).
The price wouldn't have helped either.
My beef with it Tip is that it could have been a great car from the off. I personally love the styling but it irritates the hell out of me that, as toxic rightly notes, Lotus can't afford to put out half-baked product. The engine map was 2nd rate, the gearbox throw was awful, the interior cheap and plasticky, and on those 3 things alone you will not tempt people into a 30 grand car. Period.
The revised version (so I'm reliably informed), will be a much better proposition, and I sincerely hope it sells and revives the Europa name.
What grates is that the car is now tarnished already, and I imagine it will be more difficult to persuade people into it because of that alone.
Lessons not learned - do not release a half-finished car to market. Wait a few months, hold more focus groups to tweak the final product, get it bang-on, sell more and make sure the Mags say "wow".
The stupidity of trying to directly compete in the same neiche as Boxter and TT. It would never work. I say that with the benifit of hindsight. I was a really big fan when I first saw the car but it seems it is unselable.
Ok long one this, but for me lotus were actually pretty close, they just missed some key points regarding what the car needed
Biggest problem was lotus were to caught up in were it would sit in there own lineup rather than how it would sit vs the cars it was to be pitched against, so it had to be tammer more comfortable than an elise an slower than an exige....
So while they were sorting out what it had to be in comparison to there own cars, we dont want to take sales from elise/exige etc, (A sales a sale who cares what model it is!) they didn't seem to pay enough attention to what it would need to be to get people out of the competion.
It was never going to out refine, out build quality or out luxury the oppostion, the inherant design of the car made that impossible, yet thanks to lotus's view on were the car should sit relative to there other offerings they effectively handicapped it so that in the area's it really could excel against the competion (performance, handling) it punched below the level it could an should have done.
Result very indifferant press launch, an the market for the car, those wanting performance an handling but just a little more creature comforts & not having to rev the nuts of it to get going, were left disapointed, as the handling an performance were dulled down to levels that didnt merit making the compromise from it's rivals.
What it needs/needed from the outset was....
The leather GT pack should have been standard or at the very least available from launch, the interior was never going to rival the class leaders for luxuries, but the leather pack would at least have given it some character & style of it's own, the fed elise interior was, never going to cut it against the caymans, TT's etc
The car should have had great an sharp handling from the off, rather than soften it all up use a better grade susp to get the great elise handling an better ride combined.
A better manifold an map could easily have been added to the car, and a 220 - 230 hp output should have been standard, this would have put clear performance water between the car an all it's rivals, face it why compromise an choose a car with less space, comfort etc if it's no faster or does'nt offer something to offsett that compromise.
That little lot would have made the europa one of the quickest GT's about, far, far superior speed an handling to the TT's an base model caymans etc, and would no doubt have given the top end models a fright aswell, while the leather pack would at least have given the interior a touch of luxury, the Europa would be making a real statment for itself as to why it should be picked over a porsche, TT or 350z.
Ok so i dont think it would have been lotus of the century even with that lot on it, but i rekon they would have had no problems shifting the 500 a year they set out to, an while some of those sales would probably be comming from people moving on from elise's or picking one over the exige, it's better to sell 3 europa's 5 elises an 1 exige than no europas, 6 elises an 2 exiges
Biggest problem was lotus were to caught up in were it would sit in there own lineup rather than how it would sit vs the cars it was to be pitched against, so it had to be tammer more comfortable than an elise an slower than an exige....
So while they were sorting out what it had to be in comparison to there own cars, we dont want to take sales from elise/exige etc, (A sales a sale who cares what model it is!) they didn't seem to pay enough attention to what it would need to be to get people out of the competion.
It was never going to out refine, out build quality or out luxury the oppostion, the inherant design of the car made that impossible, yet thanks to lotus's view on were the car should sit relative to there other offerings they effectively handicapped it so that in the area's it really could excel against the competion (performance, handling) it punched below the level it could an should have done.
Result very indifferant press launch, an the market for the car, those wanting performance an handling but just a little more creature comforts & not having to rev the nuts of it to get going, were left disapointed, as the handling an performance were dulled down to levels that didnt merit making the compromise from it's rivals.
What it needs/needed from the outset was....
The leather GT pack should have been standard or at the very least available from launch, the interior was never going to rival the class leaders for luxuries, but the leather pack would at least have given it some character & style of it's own, the fed elise interior was, never going to cut it against the caymans, TT's etc
The car should have had great an sharp handling from the off, rather than soften it all up use a better grade susp to get the great elise handling an better ride combined.
A better manifold an map could easily have been added to the car, and a 220 - 230 hp output should have been standard, this would have put clear performance water between the car an all it's rivals, face it why compromise an choose a car with less space, comfort etc if it's no faster or does'nt offer something to offsett that compromise.
That little lot would have made the europa one of the quickest GT's about, far, far superior speed an handling to the TT's an base model caymans etc, and would no doubt have given the top end models a fright aswell, while the leather pack would at least have given the interior a touch of luxury, the Europa would be making a real statment for itself as to why it should be picked over a porsche, TT or 350z.
Ok so i dont think it would have been lotus of the century even with that lot on it, but i rekon they would have had no problems shifting the 500 a year they set out to, an while some of those sales would probably be comming from people moving on from elise's or picking one over the exige, it's better to sell 3 europa's 5 elises an 1 exige than no europas, 6 elises an 2 exiges
The car in EVO is mine. I've owned Elise's and debated an Exige. However the Exige is too slow and to get more power easily is damn hard / expensive. I DIDN'T want a supercharger as although they are very effective they are too clinical. So what car would you buy? You want good handling quickish (coming form an Atom 300 I was always going to be disappointed) and a bit of practicallity. The car will be doing Megahhon in a few weeks.
Lets look at the options;
Porsche Boxster S - Too heavy and too slow...
Porsche Caymen - See above but getting there
BMW Z4M COupe - May well get one of these one day but not yet...
Elise - Had one enjoyed it emensely... but a bit slow with the Yota engine
Exige - As above just handles better. I did drive a 220 but found it slow, Maybe because I'd just got out the Atom.
Europa - As standard still abit slow and soft but fun with the turbo, slightly more practical.
Anyway went for the Europa after looking at the power / handling options.
Mine now goes very well and should be putting out 260-280 after the chargecooler. The handling with Nitrons on is excellant, further improved by the bigger stoppers.
All in all it is basically the car LOtus should have released, you can pick used ones up for £25-26k so why not you don't need to do all the upgrades...
Hope this puts some thoughts into the process and I am not trying to slag off any of the cars above just commenting on there differences. Didn't fancy an Exige..
If I was doing more track days I would go for an Exige no question.... However if it is just the odd one then the Europa suddenly makes sense. Even though Lotus told dealers they never want to see one on the track it does look after itself rather well
Lets look at the options;
Porsche Boxster S - Too heavy and too slow...
Porsche Caymen - See above but getting there
BMW Z4M COupe - May well get one of these one day but not yet...
Elise - Had one enjoyed it emensely... but a bit slow with the Yota engine
Exige - As above just handles better. I did drive a 220 but found it slow, Maybe because I'd just got out the Atom.
Europa - As standard still abit slow and soft but fun with the turbo, slightly more practical.
Anyway went for the Europa after looking at the power / handling options.
Mine now goes very well and should be putting out 260-280 after the chargecooler. The handling with Nitrons on is excellant, further improved by the bigger stoppers.
All in all it is basically the car LOtus should have released, you can pick used ones up for £25-26k so why not you don't need to do all the upgrades...
Hope this puts some thoughts into the process and I am not trying to slag off any of the cars above just commenting on there differences. Didn't fancy an Exige..
If I was doing more track days I would go for an Exige no question.... However if it is just the odd one then the Europa suddenly makes sense. Even though Lotus told dealers they never want to see one on the track it does look after itself rather well
Edited by fish on Sunday 29th July 16:42
I think we're all saying the same sort of thing here albeit, as Gooby says, with the benefit of hindsight (a wonderful thing!).
Sad to say, S Works I think you're right. But maybe it was also an Elise too far? The Elise concept works in all Elise/Exige varients and downwards (in terms of creature comforts) as the 2eleven. As I originally said I can't blame Lotus for trhying but maybe they got a bit greedy by initially charging for the leather interior?
I'm hoping the new 2+2 hits the spot from day one (ride/handling and performance I think we can take for granted) but the interior and perceived build need to be right to persuade buyers not to spend £40k on a used 911.
Sad to say, S Works I think you're right. But maybe it was also an Elise too far? The Elise concept works in all Elise/Exige varients and downwards (in terms of creature comforts) as the 2eleven. As I originally said I can't blame Lotus for trhying but maybe they got a bit greedy by initially charging for the leather interior?
I'm hoping the new 2+2 hits the spot from day one (ride/handling and performance I think we can take for granted) but the interior and perceived build need to be right to persuade buyers not to spend £40k on a used 911.
Problem is that you open the door and get in and you may as well be sitting in an Elise. Boot space is still very small so doesn't even get close to being practical, so again not much different to an Elise. So in my eyes it isn't really a logical next step up from the Elise/Exige because it is so similar, just looks a little bit different for more money.
Didn't like the idea from day one to be honest... it seemed to be trying to sit on two stools and would only ever fall squarely on its arse between them!
Love Lotus with a passion, but they cocked that up in spectacular style. The Europa cannot hold a candle to Boxster / TT / Z4 etc etc, but the same goes in reverse. I for one, despite leaving the fold, don't want Lotus to move away from what they do best just to satisfy a market that just doesn't fall into their radar
Does raise a big question though - now the Elise platform is heading towards the twilight of its application after a decade, where do Lotus go next..?
Love Lotus with a passion, but they cocked that up in spectacular style. The Europa cannot hold a candle to Boxster / TT / Z4 etc etc, but the same goes in reverse. I for one, despite leaving the fold, don't want Lotus to move away from what they do best just to satisfy a market that just doesn't fall into their radar
Does raise a big question though - now the Elise platform is heading towards the twilight of its application after a decade, where do Lotus go next..?
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