Racing handicap?
Discussion
It was suggested to me, that a good way of resolving "power" issues etc, would be to use the Handicap system used on Historics (lemans) etc.
Each Group would have a set handicap based on the last years performance with the idea being that everyone gets to the finishing post at the same time. No one can touch the cars.
The race would be extended by 5 mins with a fixed pitstop, timed by a marshall, and compulsory static pitstop at any point during the race after 5mins and before 20mins.
advantages are
more overtaking
more opportunity to race
the cars will be closer together for longer (and more often)
tactics come into play (pitting at the right time to get out of traffic/incidents).
zero cost
ANY GROUP LEADER can win overall!! A B or C
Could be that Sam Head/Mickey could win outright! or Graham/Tony/Marc not just the group A guys?
Passing traffic would be a critical part of the race, if you can't do it...you won't win.
Sponsorship will be easier to get for the junior series with them getting more exposure.
Just think what the last 5 laps will be like! You'll be racing all the way...to the last minute!The Group A guys are racing everyone not just their own 5 cars...everyone wins
what do you think?
easy to set up/run/police GpA 40secs/Gpb 20secs/GpC 10secs [example only]
Each Group would have a set handicap based on the last years performance with the idea being that everyone gets to the finishing post at the same time. No one can touch the cars.
The race would be extended by 5 mins with a fixed pitstop, timed by a marshall, and compulsory static pitstop at any point during the race after 5mins and before 20mins.
advantages are
more overtaking
more opportunity to race
the cars will be closer together for longer (and more often)
tactics come into play (pitting at the right time to get out of traffic/incidents).
zero cost
ANY GROUP LEADER can win overall!! A B or C
Could be that Sam Head/Mickey could win outright! or Graham/Tony/Marc not just the group A guys?
Passing traffic would be a critical part of the race, if you can't do it...you won't win.
Sponsorship will be easier to get for the junior series with them getting more exposure.
Just think what the last 5 laps will be like! You'll be racing all the way...to the last minute!The Group A guys are racing everyone not just their own 5 cars...everyone wins
what do you think?
easy to set up/run/police GpA 40secs/Gpb 20secs/GpC 10secs [example only]
Edited by Guillotine on Saturday 28th July 16:59
I've mooted a similar idea a number of times ( perhaps not as seriously as i should)
a slightly longer race and a pit stop with a variable length dependant on the car/drivers previous performance.
so a 2.9 taz would be little more than a drive through and a sagaris would have to stop for a minute or so.
As you say this would mean everyone racing for a flag win, no classes to worry about run what you like.
It would also mean that just about every overtake would be for position rather than lapping.
I think its a brilliant Idea, but i've never been sure if anyone else would be up for it. Ok figuring out the handicap would be interesting ( i think it would need to be a rolling or frequently reviewed handicap)
I anyone else is up for it I'll happily do some more research on how to work out the handicap ( and try and find someone independent to do it) there are enough series around that work out things like that ( i.e. the birkett with its target lap time)
Anyone else think its a good idea?
G
a slightly longer race and a pit stop with a variable length dependant on the car/drivers previous performance.
so a 2.9 taz would be little more than a drive through and a sagaris would have to stop for a minute or so.
As you say this would mean everyone racing for a flag win, no classes to worry about run what you like.
It would also mean that just about every overtake would be for position rather than lapping.
I think its a brilliant Idea, but i've never been sure if anyone else would be up for it. Ok figuring out the handicap would be interesting ( i think it would need to be a rolling or frequently reviewed handicap)
I anyone else is up for it I'll happily do some more research on how to work out the handicap ( and try and find someone independent to do it) there are enough series around that work out things like that ( i.e. the birkett with its target lap time)
Anyone else think its a good idea?
G
Sounds a cracking idea, and could essentially mean you can scrap the class system altogether, however I wouldn't go basing things on the Birkett handicap system it seems a bit too urm...flexible 
and the thought of a novice driver getting to the last 5 laps of their first race all of a sudden being confronted by a gaggle of cars all haring to get past spells disaster IMO
Regards
Iain
and the thought of a novice driver getting to the last 5 laps of their first race all of a sudden being confronted by a gaggle of cars all haring to get past spells disaster IMORegards
Iain
Unless there are significantly larger grids, I cannot see the BRSCC allocating more race time to the series.
If you intend giving the same handicap to everyone in the same class then all you get is a more complex version of exactly the same problem. If you intend handicapping individual drivers then what are you actually handicapping? The driver, the car, or both? And doesn't the thing become entirely subjective?
Sorry, don't like it at all. Don't mind it for the odd one off race, but hate the idea that my race outcome, in a series, would be influenced by some arbitary timing decision over which I had no control. And can you imagine the blocking tactics that would inevitably be employed by slower cars with faster cars coming through on the final couple of corners? Could be carnage
If you want overall race wins then buy, build or develop a car quick enough to do it whilst at the same time, working on the nut behind the wheel. Messrs Mason, Cook and Bryan all had pretty much identical equipment at Snett. Would you nobble David Mason just because he is a quicker driver?
As an aside, I have never got any sponsorship because my 'offering' includes winning races.
If you intend giving the same handicap to everyone in the same class then all you get is a more complex version of exactly the same problem. If you intend handicapping individual drivers then what are you actually handicapping? The driver, the car, or both? And doesn't the thing become entirely subjective?
Sorry, don't like it at all. Don't mind it for the odd one off race, but hate the idea that my race outcome, in a series, would be influenced by some arbitary timing decision over which I had no control. And can you imagine the blocking tactics that would inevitably be employed by slower cars with faster cars coming through on the final couple of corners? Could be carnage
If you want overall race wins then buy, build or develop a car quick enough to do it whilst at the same time, working on the nut behind the wheel. Messrs Mason, Cook and Bryan all had pretty much identical equipment at Snett. Would you nobble David Mason just because he is a quicker driver?
As an aside, I have never got any sponsorship because my 'offering' includes winning races.
fair enough andy, some reasonable points.
in return...
The series is now multi-discipline, and why shouldn't a quick driver in group C have a chance of an overall win? Sam is very quick, in a well turned out car and is at every round...why shouldn't he have the opportunity to take the flag? Should the series be...if you aint got a Tuscan, you aint gonna win?
I don't agree with handicapping the driver either...just the Groups.
Yes we will have similar power issue within class, but we can address this by requesting cars are bumped a class at the end of the season anyway as I understand it via JR?? and it doesn't look like many want any kind of policing for some reason (tho its essential for close racing and just about every series does it).
Blocking tactics by slower cars??? thats racing isn't it? faster car has to go round other than that its just a time trial?
Buy overal race wins via a groupA car/driver. I'm not sure what you mean here. well that can always happen and I would be fairly happy that david mason would have worked his way thru the pack at Snett if we'd had this in there. I'd guess he might have enjoyed it.
more sponsorship for winners. I was just thinking that the cars at the front would get better commentator/TV? coverage. so a system that allows cars to stay out to get to the front for a bit may help with that.
I agree that working out a systemn could be hard, and horrible if it didn't work. maybe we could try it for a race or two?
lastly, just throiwing it out there. As you know, I hope to be in a GroupA car next year...certainly by 09, so it isn't that I'm pushing it for my own benefit. And it wouldn't effect the C'ship as thats still a best in class set up and I think is the fairest option anyway.
not being confronatational here, just putting it out there
in return...
The series is now multi-discipline, and why shouldn't a quick driver in group C have a chance of an overall win? Sam is very quick, in a well turned out car and is at every round...why shouldn't he have the opportunity to take the flag? Should the series be...if you aint got a Tuscan, you aint gonna win?
I don't agree with handicapping the driver either...just the Groups.
Yes we will have similar power issue within class, but we can address this by requesting cars are bumped a class at the end of the season anyway as I understand it via JR?? and it doesn't look like many want any kind of policing for some reason (tho its essential for close racing and just about every series does it).
Blocking tactics by slower cars??? thats racing isn't it? faster car has to go round other than that its just a time trial?
Buy overal race wins via a groupA car/driver. I'm not sure what you mean here. well that can always happen and I would be fairly happy that david mason would have worked his way thru the pack at Snett if we'd had this in there. I'd guess he might have enjoyed it.
more sponsorship for winners. I was just thinking that the cars at the front would get better commentator/TV? coverage. so a system that allows cars to stay out to get to the front for a bit may help with that.
I agree that working out a systemn could be hard, and horrible if it didn't work. maybe we could try it for a race or two?
lastly, just throiwing it out there. As you know, I hope to be in a GroupA car next year...certainly by 09, so it isn't that I'm pushing it for my own benefit. And it wouldn't effect the C'ship as thats still a best in class set up and I think is the fairest option anyway.
not being confronatational here, just putting it out there
If you did do anything like that I think it would need to be a very open calculation on the car&driver combo. Based on something like laptime per mile at the last race. basing it on classes would still give you a problem of policing the car, and then your back to where we started only vastly more complicated.
It would need clear rules on sportsmanship, there is a big difference between legitimate positioning of you car to hinder passing and blantant weaving and dangerous driving.. something the clerk of the course would have words about...
Andy is right in that you would need either bigger grids or higher entry fees to cover the track time costs.
you'd also need a lot of people to run it, say at least two people to time every cars stop for a start.
I suppose it could be seen to be penalizing faster driver more than slower drivers ,as in effect it would be, but anything that trys to performance balance things will.
At the end of the day we need something thats simple and interesting enough to encourage everyone to come out and play, so its good to see all sorts of ideas come out of the woodwork. If im honest
this never one i though many people would go for..... although done properly it would be fun and give a very level playing field, but as this is racing nobody wants to give away any advantage ( car or driver
)
I must admit i've been round the houses with all sorts of possibilities more times than the earths been round the sun, in many ways it depends what we are trying to achieve
a) performance balance car and driver ( in many ways thats how britcar started out)
b) performance balance the (say p/w)
c) put all the cars in neat little boxes ( say engine size)
Maybe the simplest would be to say tighten up and clarify our current structure a little more. in the past that has generated some good racing and built the numbers to where we are now. It cant be that far out, in 3 years and 3 slightly different sets of regs and 6 different engine configurations myself and marc ran just about wheel to wheel with both cars on the limit of the structure they were in.
I think I am starting to get tired of regs changing every year, unless something radical and interesting comes out.
Its maybe a pity we didnt think about running a handicap race at rockingham to try it out, no worries about the track time then
Anyway I've got a car to worry about putting back together first never mind the classes
G
Edited to say. In effect we've already had this type of thing a couple of times, without any problems and it made things quite interesting.
Andy Pitting on the green flag for tyres at Brands, and Tim and Darren starting from the pit lane at mallory, and racing through the pack.
Im also sure another club does something with a staggered start for the grid. There seem to be slightly more possibilities than there are cars at the moment
It would need clear rules on sportsmanship, there is a big difference between legitimate positioning of you car to hinder passing and blantant weaving and dangerous driving.. something the clerk of the course would have words about...
Andy is right in that you would need either bigger grids or higher entry fees to cover the track time costs.
you'd also need a lot of people to run it, say at least two people to time every cars stop for a start.
I suppose it could be seen to be penalizing faster driver more than slower drivers ,as in effect it would be, but anything that trys to performance balance things will.
At the end of the day we need something thats simple and interesting enough to encourage everyone to come out and play, so its good to see all sorts of ideas come out of the woodwork. If im honest
this never one i though many people would go for..... although done properly it would be fun and give a very level playing field, but as this is racing nobody wants to give away any advantage ( car or driver
)I must admit i've been round the houses with all sorts of possibilities more times than the earths been round the sun, in many ways it depends what we are trying to achieve
a) performance balance car and driver ( in many ways thats how britcar started out)
b) performance balance the (say p/w)
c) put all the cars in neat little boxes ( say engine size)
Maybe the simplest would be to say tighten up and clarify our current structure a little more. in the past that has generated some good racing and built the numbers to where we are now. It cant be that far out, in 3 years and 3 slightly different sets of regs and 6 different engine configurations myself and marc ran just about wheel to wheel with both cars on the limit of the structure they were in.
I think I am starting to get tired of regs changing every year, unless something radical and interesting comes out.
Its maybe a pity we didnt think about running a handicap race at rockingham to try it out, no worries about the track time then
Anyway I've got a car to worry about putting back together first never mind the classes
G
Edited to say. In effect we've already had this type of thing a couple of times, without any problems and it made things quite interesting.
Andy Pitting on the green flag for tyres at Brands, and Tim and Darren starting from the pit lane at mallory, and racing through the pack.
Im also sure another club does something with a staggered start for the grid. There seem to be slightly more possibilities than there are cars at the moment
Edited by Graham on Saturday 28th July 23:51
The best racing is between evenly matched car/driver combinations having a race long battle. The cars are together for the race duration.
Good racing (in my view) is not about giving a slower car a head start and seeing if you can catch and overtake them - though I agree that occasionally a race can be spiced up by a fast car starting towards the back of the grid. We already see a huge amount of overtaking as the slower cars are lapped by the faster cars. Sure the slower cars get to do less laps, but at least everyone gets the same track time.
What you are struggling with in the TVR series is a wide range of abilities and a wide range of cars. Trying to match cars that lap some circuits over 20 seconds a lap faster/slower is futile in my view. The cars are simply too different. If we look back at the time sheets for Rockingham last year, are you seriously suggesting that Tim and I should have sat in the pits to give Mark Freeman and George Carter a 4 lap head start?
I also believe that commentators and/or TV coverage are going to focus on where the action is - faster cars coming through. I don't think this will achieve your aim.
You are also potentially encouraging the wrong skills. Drivers in quicker cars get to practice overtaking slower cars (although they do less of it because of the handicap), whilst the drivers in slower cars practice defensive driving rather than overtaking.
I understand what you are trying to achieve, I just disagree with it. I don't think everyone has an equal right to win races - winning depends on their ability, the quality of car preparation and set up, and, naturally, their choice of car.
Good racing (in my view) is not about giving a slower car a head start and seeing if you can catch and overtake them - though I agree that occasionally a race can be spiced up by a fast car starting towards the back of the grid. We already see a huge amount of overtaking as the slower cars are lapped by the faster cars. Sure the slower cars get to do less laps, but at least everyone gets the same track time.
What you are struggling with in the TVR series is a wide range of abilities and a wide range of cars. Trying to match cars that lap some circuits over 20 seconds a lap faster/slower is futile in my view. The cars are simply too different. If we look back at the time sheets for Rockingham last year, are you seriously suggesting that Tim and I should have sat in the pits to give Mark Freeman and George Carter a 4 lap head start?
I also believe that commentators and/or TV coverage are going to focus on where the action is - faster cars coming through. I don't think this will achieve your aim.
You are also potentially encouraging the wrong skills. Drivers in quicker cars get to practice overtaking slower cars (although they do less of it because of the handicap), whilst the drivers in slower cars practice defensive driving rather than overtaking.
I understand what you are trying to achieve, I just disagree with it. I don't think everyone has an equal right to win races - winning depends on their ability, the quality of car preparation and set up, and, naturally, their choice of car.
Guillotine said:
fair enough andy, some reasonable points.
in return...
The series is now multi-discipline, and why shouldn't a quick driver in group C have a chance of an overall win? Sam is very quick, in a well turned out car and is at every round...why shouldn't he have the opportunity to take the flag? Should the series be...if you aint got a Tuscan, you aint gonna win?
Andy - I don't think you are being confrontational, I am simply putting up my point of view which happens to be contrary to yours on this matter.in return...
The series is now multi-discipline, and why shouldn't a quick driver in group C have a chance of an overall win? Sam is very quick, in a well turned out car and is at every round...why shouldn't he have the opportunity to take the flag? Should the series be...if you aint got a Tuscan, you aint gonna win?
The series isn't 'multi disclipline' - it just has a mix of abilities and cars. Because of the variance in cars you can't tell actually how fast a particular driver is - with the possible exception of standard Class A Tuscans
The reason a quick driver in a Group C car doesn't have a chance at an overall race win is blindingly simple. He has a car which laps some 15 or so seconds a lap slower than the most common car in the series - the Class A Tuscan.
If he is a quick driver and he wants outright wins, he has the option of buying or building a quicker car. As Howard, Gary and others have found, even with a fast car it takes a fair bit of time to pedal it quickly.
I've not seen Sam, nor any other Class B or C driver complaining about not having the opportunity to win races outright
Again,
All fair points well made!
I am of the opinion tho, that we (the guys out there and building cars) race TVRs because we love TVRs.
Its much cheaper to go racing Caterhams, and its better racing.
Surely it healthier (and more likely to grow) if we offer better racing for people who want to race TVRs. Otherwise they'll go off and do other things. Whatever their budget.
several drivers have expressed their opinions this way to me. we need to make sure that everyone who is fast and prepared has a good chance, whatever their budget.
I'm currently helping TWO new drivers who want to get into TVR racing. They want to make sure that they spend their money wisely and on the right Kit. They're are interested because there's a lower cost option, they don't want to race Tuscans...YET
9and I'm not talking about Owen...he's a third!)
All fair points well made!
I am of the opinion tho, that we (the guys out there and building cars
) race TVRs because we love TVRs.Its much cheaper to go racing Caterhams, and its better racing.
Surely it healthier (and more likely to grow) if we offer better racing for people who want to race TVRs. Otherwise they'll go off and do other things. Whatever their budget.
several drivers have expressed their opinions this way to me. we need to make sure that everyone who is fast and prepared has a good chance, whatever their budget.
I'm currently helping TWO new drivers who want to get into TVR racing. They want to make sure that they spend their money wisely and on the right Kit. They're are interested because there's a lower cost option, they don't want to race Tuscans...YET
9and I'm not talking about Owen...he's a third!)
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