The Sat Nav issue

[Nippper]

Hi everyone

I'm sorry if this has been raised before, but I'm new here and this has become a big issue in the last 24 hrs

Wind back to last Saturday:

Go to official Porsche dealer and test drive an 02 996 C2 - perfect for us in every respect apart from its missing the sat nav module.

No problem says salesman - we can retro-fit fit it. That said I sign on the dotted line (sat nave £££ extra!!) and leave one happy chap.

So today I get a call from said salesman - there is a problem - the wiring loom on your C2 does not integrate with the Sat Nav (Why?? surely Porsche don't put cars without this option on a different production line??).

So my call for help:

I pushed for the sat nav because I'm worried that in 3 years time, selling a Porsche without it will be like selling cars without Aircon now - ******* difficult!

What are your views:

Are buyers happy to stick in a suction pad device or are they looking for something more integrated? - Also - can the 996 module be updated for TMS?

Thanks for your help

Nipper

ps - I don't need a turbo or GT2 - I have a motorbike for that!!

[ukwill]

Compare the price you paid for the car with one that has PCM. If you have saved around 2k then expect to lose that come sale time. If you can find other cars with PCM for the same money you have paid, then you should go and sit in the corner, face to the wall.

Also, you WILL have less of a market to sell to without it. Oh, and expect stealers to give even more ridiculous p/x values.


edit: and buy a TT

Edited by ukwill on Thursday 2nd August 00:05

[spenny_b]

Personally, it wouldnt bother me whether a prospective car had satnav or not, in fact, I'd far rather use the portable ones (current one is a Mio Digiwalker widescreen), as the OE ones are often nowhere near as good (thinking specifically the one in a mates VW Touran...bleedin hopeless, fiddly as hell to program versus touchscreen, limited updates for the maps, and as far as i know, the porsche ones have to have the media disk (CD-ROM?) present all the time to read from?....willing to stand corrected on that though)

Sorry, not a fan of integrated satnav...too permanent an un-upgradeable in terms of H/W.

[Don]

Sat Nav dates quickly. An 02 car would be pre-"MOST bus" and cannot, therefore, take the newer PCM2 unit that Porsche will have in stock. Instead you *could* fit a PCM1. But why would you when you can buy a non-MOST bus sophisticated Sat Nav system from almost anyone...with the advantage of being able to get updated maps still - unlike Porsches PCM1 system for which it would appear it has dropped support.

Myself? I would not buy a car fitted with PCM1. And I would not pay any extra for a more recent car fitted with PCM2 - as it will date just as quickly - when I can buy a unit for £250 that is just as good if not better!

There was a time Sat Nav was a "must fit" option. On older cars it is now a liability (I've seen owners of PCM1 systems using a Tom Tom ANYWAY) and on newer cars with a system that Porsche still supports? It certainly doesn't add much value to me. Maybe £1K. If the sales guy was asking for £2K I'd walk away...

So. If I were you I'd get your £££s for the Sat Nav back, buy a Tom Tom and drive a truly great car about without getting lost. Then sell it. Probably for as much as one fitted with PCM1 anyway.

[2something]

Just my personal view as someone who bought an 01 car last year - on an 02 car, I wouldn't worry too much about not having the built-in Sat Nav.

It's already 5 years old and a £250 garmin will be better
Say you sell in three years time, trying to recoup the 2k you paid on a 8 year old car is quite unlikely as it would very roughly be 10% of the sale price.
I wouldn't have paid any extra for a PCM1 sat nav

Edited by 2something on Thursday 2nd August 07:41

[supermono]

First the salesman said:

No problem we can retro-fit fit it.

But then when you'd bought it he said:

there is a problem - the wiring loom on your C2 does not integrate with the Sat Nav

Surely that's sharp practise? It seems to me like you bought the car contingent on his tissue of lies and now he's hooked you he can start back pedalling.

Perhaps next time you buy a car you can say you think I can come up with the other 1k, but then after a bit of banter concede that ok you can and then when he's signed up the sale and V5, come in to collect it and apologise but actually you couldn't come up with the 1k after all, and ask for the keys please... I'm sure he'll be fine about your simple mistake.

But as far as satnav goes it's scummy dealers that have created the problem. Integrated satnav is convenient when it hooks into mpg and comes up instantly and doesn't clog up the windscreen/cabin but it does date really badly and in the cold light of day, punters wouldn't really care too much if it's in or not APART from the fact that they expect dealers to screw them by saying they simply won't be able to give the car away without satnav (but of course telling prospective buyers that it's not an issue).

SM

[Ir Baboon]

There is always the chance that you could go down the traffic pro route - a Becker unit, they build the OEM kit for Porsche, so doesnt look out of place.

Why shell out for unsupported technology - personally i wouldnt buy or not buy, a car on the basis of sat nav

[chillerman]

supermono said:

First the salesman said:

and in the cold light of day, punters wouldn't really care too much if it's in or not APART from the fact that they expect dealers to screw them by saying they simply won't be able to give the car away without satnav (but of course telling prospective buyers that it's not an issue).

SM

What ? I certainly cared whether or not I had sat nav in the car I bought. I'd wager I'm not alone in this sentiment. I have PCM2 and it works just fine as far as I'm concerned. Aftermarket jobbies look like repmobile/chavvy add on's to me. Small or inconsequential variances in user friendliness or images I couldn't care less about. I simply use mine to help me navigate to destinations.

[clorenzen]

If the missing Sat Nav was refelected in the price compared to other cars with same mileage/age I would not worry too much. The 2001/2002 Sat/Nav software is dated anyway and a TomTom does a better job. Enjoy.

[Don]

chillerman said:

What ? I certainly cared whether or not I had sat nav in the car I bought. I'd wager I'm not alone in this sentiment. I have PCM2 and it works just fine as far as I'm concerned. Aftermarket jobbies look like repmobile/chavvy add on's to me. Small or inconsequential variances in user friendliness or images I couldn't care less about. I simply use mine to help me navigate to destinations.

If you are buying new and selling on in less than three years I'd PCM2 was a good option. Once its out of date (say, six years old) and unsupported? Not so important to a buyer...and if you can't get maps like PCM1 its a liability.

Yes I know Windscreen-Sucker-Jobbies don't look so great (I'd hesitate to say "chavvy&quot but who cares? They're BETTER at what they do. Being user friendly isn't inconsequential - its vital. Like accepting 8 digit post codes for example...does PCM do that yet?

Built-ins are really convenient if you use them all the time, I accept. But in my toy car its only on the annual two week vacation I actually need Sat Nav...given that its just not worth paying four times the price for a unit that's not even as good.

That's common sense. Not "chavvy"!

[garyjones1962]

spenny_b said:

Personally, it wouldnt bother me whether a prospective car had satnav or not, in fact, I'd far rather use the portable ones (current one is a Mio Digiwalker widescreen), as the OE ones are often nowhere near as good (thinking specifically the one in a mates VW Touran...bleedin hopeless, fiddly as hell to program versus touchscreen, limited updates for the maps, and as far as i know, the porsche ones have to have the media disk (CD-ROM?) present all the time to read from?....willing to stand corrected on that though)

Sorry, not a fan of integrated satnav...too permanent an un-upgradeable in terms of H/W.

Wot e sed

[Henry-F]

I think we see Sat Nav in earlier cars as an inducement to purchase rather than something that increases the price. It`s hard to quantify and for sure there are times when we ask a bit more for a car (and pay a bit more for it) because of the spec level. Certainly I don`t envisage us refusing to buy older cars for not having sat nav or see them as being un-saleable, and you`ll definitely save some money on a newer car if it isn`t fitted with nav (not sure if a 2002 car falls into that category - it`s probably on the cusp.

There are after market nav systems available which improve on the factory fitted units in one way or another, certainly cost! £400 buys a touch screen Tom Tom that will allow input in the form of a post code. If it breaks just chuck it in the bin, you`ll be able to change 3 or 4 times for the cost of a single factory fit replacement should it go wrong, and they can go wrong, particularly if fitted with the phone option with the little sim card tray.

The difference between sat nav and a/c is that you can`t just go into Dixons & buy a/c off the shelf, fitting it is a very significant job. The sat nav market is changing almost by the day and so it`s fair to assume in 2 - 3 years there will be even better systems off the shelf for under, say, £500. A hard wired system lays it`s marker in the sand the day it is fitted and it`s very hard to update or replace (especially in a relatively small production run car compared to say a Ford).

Henry

[Davey S2]

In 3-4 years time most sat navs wil be integrated in phones and large in built units in cars will be obsolete.

I really cant see the fuss on insisting on a huge built in unit when a £200 Tom Tom will do a better job for a fraction of the price.

[Dr S]

If you want to resell the car, the integrated stanav will be as outdated as a black and white telly from the fifties. No need to worry or retrofit. A mobile stanav will be uptodate and much cheaper...

[Adam B]

to offer a contrasting opinion:

a) I have an integrated system in my RS4, it works very well and looks neat and, well, integrated! It improves the interior feel and also offers a good screen to operate radio/CD player/mp3 cards. It is not the best system out there eg postcode search only goes to SW1 1 not full postcode but that is a minor inconvenience. Trying to sell an RS4 w/o the tech pack is nigh on impossible or you lose at least as much as the cost of the option or retrofit.
b) Wife used to use a tomtom one. Very neat it was too but it looked crap to me as do all suction pad / wires dangling everywhere systems. It didn't cheapen the interior as this was in a Polo but I would not want it anywhere near my RS4 interior.
c) The suction pads caused marks, mounting on windscreen reduced visibility and was annoying being in my eyesight, and apparently the telltale suction marks or cradles lead to more thefts from cars.
d) integrated systems can go out of date but you can buy more up to date discs and just how much to roads change, certainly very few that I travel on.

When I was buying a 996TT I would not have considered one without PCM2, private sellers often said "yes it has satnav" before I asked, and one guy said "hello, before we go any further my car does not have satnav" as so many callers were not interested after he said that; that said had I been looking at pre-52 plate cars I would not have considered one WITH PCM1, it is so dated and has a blooming cassette player on it! Much better to go with a decent aftermarket single slot stereo/satnav system or something that looks OEM like the Becker traffic pro

Edited by Adam B on Thursday 2nd August 10:38

[willdew]

Davey S2 said:

In 3-4 years time most sat navs wil be integrated in phones and large in built units in cars will be obsolete.

I really cant see the fuss on insisting on a huge built in unit when a £200 Tom Tom will do a better job for a fraction of the price.

Yep, I agree.

TomTom's work better and cost less. Make sure you pay what the car's worth for the options it has, and expect the price you get back for it in the future to reflect this also. Although I do think it will become less relevant in the future.

If you want to plumb in the wires for a tomtom properly, and tidy it up, it's a stright forward job.

[johnny senna]

If you want an integrated unit, why not look at what's available from Pioneer/Alpine/Kenwood. They do double din satnav hi-fi units. I have the pioneer in my GTI and it is good. Expensive, but good. I use a Tom Tom in my 993 RS as and when I need it.

[dazren]

I deliberately ordered my car without satnav in 2002. I wanted the empty DIN slots in the dash.

It'll shortly be having a new Becker headunit fitted which will have Radio, CD (+plays MP3), it'll also allow handsfree bluetooth mobile phone and linking with an Ipod. All in costs about £400.

Wonder what it would cost to do this to a car fitted with PCM1 or PCM2?

As for satnav I'll carry on swapping my European capable mobile unit from car to car.

[Slaav]

Afraid I would walk if a car didn't have Sat Nav now. (PCM2)

I always steered well clear of Tom Toms etc as surely it is not that hard to read a map? Now, however, having grown used to switching on PCM2 and letting it do the shouting at me, I find it very easy and useful. Another thing with PCM2 is you dont forget it and leave it visible for teh local scrote. I would honestly get brassed off having to unplug and take my Tom Tom with me everytime I parked the car. I would end up throwing the unit into the glovebox or door bin and guess what? That is probably what everyone else does and leads to break ins and the ensuing hassle.....

I would bet that nobody has ever had their PCM2 ripped out and stolen? (and not because it is cr4p)

[willdew]

Slaav said:

Afraid I would walk if a car didn't have Sat Nav now. (PCM2)

I always steered well clear of Tom Toms etc as surely it is not that hard to read a map? Now, however, having grown used to switching on PCM2 and letting it do the shouting at me, I find it very easy and useful. Another thing with PCM2 is you dont forget it and leave it visible for teh local scrote. I would honestly get brassed off having to unplug and take my Tom Tom with me everytime I parked the car. I would end up throwing the unit into the glovebox or door bin and guess what? That is probably what everyone else does and leads to break ins and the ensuing hassle.....

I would bet that nobody has ever had their PCM2 ripped out and stolen? (and not because it is cr4p)

Fair point, but I guess it depends what sort of area you live in and where you leave the car. I think that as their price is dropping, their desirability and stealability is also dropping.

However, I'm not someone to pay more for something that's not as good, even if it's security may be better. Guess that's why there's a market for both...