Help and advice please

[TimJM]

Following some debre being thrown into my car and causing damage to the sump my car misery seems never ending. Forgive the vagueness of the post I am trying to obey the naming and shaming policy. Both the garages involved have come highly recommended from these forums. Also, this post isn't a winge at the garages I just want to fill you in on the story so far and ask for advice.

The original work to replace the sump was carried out but when the car was returned it was running very rough and the clutch had an intermittent problem – after plugging it into a laptop it appeared a lambda sensor was down. It took 6 weeks to get this far.

The garage that did the sump work said it would take 3 weeks to source a new sensor so I moved it to a second garage. They collected my car took it away and set about fixing the car up.

The clutch has been fixed (I believe) and a new lambda sensor has been fitted but the car still didn't run right. I was then told the cam timing was out – this was corrected but the car still didn't run quite right. I was then told the throttle pots were out – this was corrected but once the car warmed up it started to run rough again. It has taken 3 weeks to get here.

I have just had a phone call – one of the valves are bent. WHAT – what is happening how?? Apparently the cam timing was so bad the one of the valves have been bent?

I just don't know what to do anymore – it feels like I will never see my car again. How could one of my valves be bent and does anyone know how much/how long it takes to fix this? Also, does this sound right? The car runs great until it is warm then runs rough.

Any advice is welcomed. I just feel sick to my stomach.

[sonnylad]

I appear to be in a very similar boat to yours, originally i only wanted a new clutch.
Seven months later it still runs like CR*P, and each time its this its that but these items never cure the problem, just empty my pockets further.

[Toady1]

did it run right before it was taken in to have the sump done? as none of the following probs are at all linked to the other probs! And to bend a valve it sounds like the cam timing wasnt set right by the person setting it, if it ran right before!!! Its hit a piston to bend.

[TimJM]

Toady1 said:

did it run right before it was taken in to have the sump done? as none of the following probs are at all linked to the other probs! And to bend a valve it sounds like the cam timing wasnt set right by the person setting it, if it ran right before!!! Its hit a piston to bend.

It ran like a dream before - no problems or flat spot anywhere. I drove it as an everyday car all through the winter in rain/snow and never missed a beat. I just don't know how things can go so badly wrong. Plus - say the first garage set the cam timing so badly that it has caused the bent valve, nothing could be done about it - it would be there word against mine. I can't see how this could be "proved".

[Toady1]

not sure how to prove it then, but it sounds like its been fcked up by the person who adjusted the cam timing if it ran fine before, as in no way whatsoever is the sump, or the clutch linked to the valve train!

[julian64]

There is only a fairly small 5-10 deg adjust that can be made to a cam. Not even at the extreemes of that adjustment would the valves come into contact with the pistons. Not even close.

[TimJM]

julian64 said:

There is only a fairly small 5-10 deg adjust that can be made to a cam. Not even at the extreemes of that adjustment would the valves come into contact with the pistons. Not even close.

Thanks julian - thats very interesting. So what is happening here then? How could my valves be bent? I was told the cam was two links out and 1.5 links out whatever that means?

[methodwares]

TimJM said:

julian64 said:

There is only a fairly small 5-10 deg adjust that can be made to a cam. Not even at the extreemes of that adjustment would the valves come into contact with the pistons. Not even close.

Thanks julian - thats very interesting. So what is happening here then? How could my valves be bent? I was told the cam was two links out and 1.5 links out whatever that means?

chain links.... that's probably more than 5 - 10 degrees. how many pointy thingys are on the cam gear, divide 360 by that... that's how far out they were set and then multiply by 2 and 1.5. that's how far out they would have been

[julian64]

methodwares said:

TimJM said:

julian64 said:

There is only a fairly small 5-10 deg adjust that can be made to a cam. Not even at the extreemes of that adjustment would the valves come into contact with the pistons. Not even close.

Thanks julian - thats very interesting. So what is happening here then? How could my valves be bent? I was told the cam was two links out and 1.5 links out whatever that means?

chain links.... that's probably more than 5 - 10 degrees. how many pointy thingys are on the cam gear, divide 360 by that... that's how far out they were set and then multiply by 2 and 1.5. that's how far out they would have been

But running on the wrong link on the chain would have giving him pretty cr*p runnign before he took it into the garage wouldn't it ?

[TimJM]

julian64 said:

methodwares said:

TimJM said:

julian64 said:

There is only a fairly small 5-10 deg adjust that can be made to a cam. Not even at the extreemes of that adjustment would the valves come into contact with the pistons. Not even close.

Thanks julian - thats very interesting. So what is happening here then? How could my valves be bent? I was told the cam was two links out and 1.5 links out whatever that means?

chain links.... that's probably more than 5 - 10 degrees. how many pointy thingys are on the cam gear, divide 360 by that... that's how far out they were set and then multiply by 2 and 1.5. that's how far out they would have been

But running on the wrong link on the chain would have giving him pretty cr*p runnign before he took it into the garage wouldn't it ?

The car ran fine before going to the 1st garage where the 12k service was carried out at the same time as the sump replacement. The car ran like crap when I got it back from there but I assumed it was just the lambda sensor that was down.

[FarmyardPants]

If the cam timing is/was bad enough to bend a valve then it would bend several valves. If valve(s) are bent and not sealing, I would have thought it would run like crap whether hot or cold. Could it be that the tappets have been adjusted too much, so when the engine heats up the valves no longer seal? A tell-tale symptom of this would be that the car would run more quietly when cold (than before the adjustment). It should be a bit tappety, then quieten down as the engine warms up. The fact that it (normally) quietens down as it warms up suggests that the valves do grow a few thou. Does it sound nice and tappety when you first fire it up?

[FarmyardPants]

More armchair hypothesising: maybe the garage adjusted the clearances with the engine cold (normally this is done with engine warm I think - anyone?) because the sump was off at the time. I think they've diagnosed bent valves because they're not sealing, but in reality this is not because they're bent. Best of luck anyway, hope it's a simple fix. (Puts pipe back in mouth and leans back in armchair)

[TimJM]

FarmyardPants said:

More armchair hypothesising: maybe the garage adjusted the clearances with the engine cold (normally this is done with engine warm I think - anyone?) because the sump was off at the time. I think they've diagnosed bent valves because they're not sealing, but in reality this is not because they're bent. Best of luck anyway, hope it's a simple fix. (Puts pipe back in mouth and leans back in armchair)

I will have a chat to the garage and see what they say. My problem is I haven't seen the problem for myself and have just been relating the garages comments. I should probably get down there and see things for myself.

How would bent valves be diagnosed as opposed to valves which just aren't sealing (perhaps due to clearances)?

[FarmyardPants]

Good question, and I agree you should talk to the garage.

It depends how they diagnosed it. If they've found evidence of blow-by then it could be either. If they've seen the bucket/follower not meet the cam lobe then they're right and you'll need some head work (don't we all). Good luck..

[methodwares]

TimJM said:

FarmyardPants said:

More armchair hypothesising: maybe the garage adjusted the clearances with the engine cold (normally this is done with engine warm I think - anyone?) because the sump was off at the time. I think they've diagnosed bent valves because they're not sealing, but in reality this is not because they're bent. Best of luck anyway, hope it's a simple fix. (Puts pipe back in mouth and leans back in armchair)

I will have a chat to the garage and see what they say. My problem is I haven't seen the problem for myself and have just been relating the garages comments. I should probably get down there and see things for myself.

How would bent valves be diagnosed as opposed to valves which just aren't sealing (perhaps due to clearances)?

the clearances are adjusted cold (from the boys at automedon)

bent valves can be diagnosed by checking the height of the valve spring. if a valve is bent it won't close all the way and the spring will be more compressed (shorter) than others...

[TimJM]

methodwares said:

TimJM said:

FarmyardPants said:

More armchair hypothesising: maybe the garage adjusted the clearances with the engine cold (normally this is done with engine warm I think - anyone?) because the sump was off at the time. I think they've diagnosed bent valves because they're not sealing, but in reality this is not because they're bent. Best of luck anyway, hope it's a simple fix. (Puts pipe back in mouth and leans back in armchair)

I will have a chat to the garage and see what they say. My problem is I haven't seen the problem for myself and have just been relating the garages comments. I should probably get down there and see things for myself.

How would bent valves be diagnosed as opposed to valves which just aren't sealing (perhaps due to clearances)?

the clearances are adjusted cold (from the boys at automedon)

bent valves can be diagnosed by checking the height of the valve spring. if a valve is bent it won't close all the way and the spring will be more compressed (shorter) than others...

So it is starting to sound like the head needs to come off whatever - even to diagnose the fault properly. Also, why does the engine need to come out of the car to replace bent valves?

Edited by TimJM on Friday 3rd August 15:10

[methodwares]

may not be possible to get the heads off with engine in the car

[Robertjp]

Tim, sorry to hear this, I really am.

Automedon set this car up after its last service, they only had to do three tappets, and very minor adjustments (done COLD). She was running absolutely peachy as you have already said.

Im maybe missing something - is the chain removal / adjustment part and parcel of engine removal then? i.e. why would the previous garage go near it?! When you said cam timing was out i wasnt sure why it should be thats all, cant see why they would have gone near that end of things, unless they wrongly diagnosed this was the problem?

It sounds to me like the previous garage messed things up badly...but im still not convinced this is a bent valve.

I have access to a boroscope kit if you want to check the valves out mate, just drop me a note and i will bring it home from work if you like.

Edited by Robertjp on Saturday 4th August 15:22

[TimJM]

Robertjp said:

Tim, sorry to hear this, I really am.

Automedon set this car up after its last service, they only had to do three tappets, and very minor adjustments (done COLD). She was running absolutely peachy as you have already said.

Im maybe missing something - is the chain removal / adjustment part and parcel of engine removal then? i.e. why would the previous garage go near it?! When you said cam timing was out i wasnt sure why it should be thats all, cant see why they would have gone near that end of things, unless they wrongly diagnosed this was the problem?

It sounds to me like the previous garage messed things up badly...but im still not convinced this is a bent valve.

I have access to a boroscope kit if you want to check the valves out mate, just drop me a note and i will bring it home from work if you like.

Edited by Robertjp on Saturday 4th August 15:22

Thanks for the offer Rob I was going to ask if you had one of these but the 2nd garage (where the car is now) have run a pressure test on all cylinders and it passed - so it can't be a bent valve then, at least that is my understanding. The previous garage did the 12k service with the sump work - I am guessing this is what screwed the cam timing.

So far the lambdas have been replaced, the cam timing fixed, that tappets double checked, the throttle pots adjusted and it still won't run right. The next stop is fuel pressure and possible ECU fault. If I can't get to the bottom of this soon I am going to lose my mind - I have become obsessed by the thing!

All this from a replacement sump...

[Robertjp]

TimJM said:

Robertjp said:

Tim, sorry to hear this, I really am.

Automedon set this car up after its last service, they only had to do three tappets, and very minor adjustments (done COLD). She was running absolutely peachy as you have already said.

Im maybe missing something - is the chain removal / adjustment part and parcel of engine removal then? i.e. why would the previous garage go near it?! When you said cam timing was out i wasnt sure why it should be thats all, cant see why they would have gone near that end of things, unless they wrongly diagnosed this was the problem?

It sounds to me like the previous garage messed things up badly...but im still not convinced this is a bent valve.

I have access to a boroscope kit if you want to check the valves out mate, just drop me a note and i will bring it home from work if you like.

Edited by Robertjp on Saturday 4th August 15:22

Thanks for the offer Rob I was going to ask if you had one of these but the 2nd garage (where the car is now) have run a pressure test on all cylinders and it passed - so it can't be a bent valve then, at least that is my understanding. The previous garage did the 12k service with the sump work - I am guessing this is what screwed the cam timing.

So far the lambdas have been replaced, the cam timing fixed, that tappets double checked, the throttle pots adjusted and it still won't run right. The next stop is fuel pressure and possible ECU fault. If I can't get to the bottom of this soon I am going to lose my mind - I have become obsessed by the thing!

All this from a replacement sump...

well...i think recall from your previous posts (or emails?) that the fuel pump was replaced? This could be the source of the problem, especially since the previous garage dont seem to have had a great understanding of what they were up to! The could explain the high rev stutter. Its not something basic like resetting of the adaptives is it, hope not but maybe worth asking?! You would have to be really unlucky to have an ECU fault at the same time as all this, i would put my money on the fuel pump - it is a part that has been tampered with and could explain your symptoms.

Anyone else with any ideas?!?! Please?!?!