Complicated NIP - help please!
Discussion
Guys
I just wondered if you could help with this....
Received a NIP dated 30 July relating to an offence on 2 Feb (my wife had been driving but I'm the registered keeper).
The NIP said 62mph in a 40mph limit, but the speed limit on that road is 50mph. I rang to query this (thinking that maybe there had been a temporary limit at that time) but they told me that it was an inputting error.
They also told me that they had sent out a correct NIP to my old address at the time but, because my DVLA records hadn't been changed (I'd moved house July '06), they'd only just tracked me down to my new address. They'd then made the mistake with the new one.
They said they'd send out yet another NIP with the correct details and/or get the police officer in question to give me a ring first.
I'm wondering where I stand then...
1 does the error on the NIP make it invalid? can they now send out another one? does it matter that any new NIP would now be 6 months after the offence.
and what should i do now? respond to the NIP stating that I believe it's incorrect and invalid?
any help would be much appreciated.
I just wondered if you could help with this....
Received a NIP dated 30 July relating to an offence on 2 Feb (my wife had been driving but I'm the registered keeper).
The NIP said 62mph in a 40mph limit, but the speed limit on that road is 50mph. I rang to query this (thinking that maybe there had been a temporary limit at that time) but they told me that it was an inputting error.
They also told me that they had sent out a correct NIP to my old address at the time but, because my DVLA records hadn't been changed (I'd moved house July '06), they'd only just tracked me down to my new address. They'd then made the mistake with the new one.
They said they'd send out yet another NIP with the correct details and/or get the police officer in question to give me a ring first.
I'm wondering where I stand then...
1 does the error on the NIP make it invalid? can they now send out another one? does it matter that any new NIP would now be 6 months after the offence.
and what should i do now? respond to the NIP stating that I believe it's incorrect and invalid?
any help would be much appreciated.
Interesting.... Do they seem very keen to talk to you?
IIRC they have six months from the date of the offence to lay papers before the court. Six months from the date of the offence was yesterday!
I believe the fact that your details were incorrect with the DVLA at the time of the offence (were they actually incorrect, do you have any written confirmation that they had been altered from the DVLA?) means the 14 day NIP rule doesn't apply in your case, however if you had notified the DVLA and can prove it then the 14 day rule should still apply and one wasn't served within the time limit.
I'm sure the experts will be along in a minute but it's certainly interesting if they haven't already laid papers which I don't think they can as there is no proof of who to charge at this point in time.
One other point, the SCP's do frequent these forums so don't post anything that's too personally identifiable.
IIRC they have six months from the date of the offence to lay papers before the court. Six months from the date of the offence was yesterday!
I believe the fact that your details were incorrect with the DVLA at the time of the offence (were they actually incorrect, do you have any written confirmation that they had been altered from the DVLA?) means the 14 day NIP rule doesn't apply in your case, however if you had notified the DVLA and can prove it then the 14 day rule should still apply and one wasn't served within the time limit.
I'm sure the experts will be along in a minute but it's certainly interesting if they haven't already laid papers which I don't think they can as there is no proof of who to charge at this point in time.
One other point, the SCP's do frequent these forums so don't post anything that's too personally identifiable.
So if they sent the NIP to the address on the DVLA datatbase within the 14 day limit that avenue is gone for you.As for the input error , if it was just an admin cock up I think you're probably stufed there also.How did they get you Gatso ,tallyvan or what?Is there photographic evidence for you to see what speed they claim you were doing?
shack55 said:
nodz17 said:
1 the incorrect NIP and
2 the 6 month rule
1. They are entitled to correct it2 the 6 month rule
2. Feb to now almost 6 months or past, expect a summons
They are 'stuffed' as they've said they'll send out a new NiP, which means that so long as you return it within the 'new' 28-day period they must accept it. then when they send the COFP, you ignore it, wait for a summons, then point out that they have not complied with the requirement to lay the papers with the court within the required 6-month period. In fact, if your wife was driving, she will have to receive an NiP after you return yours - better still!
forget the 14 days and the error (14 days is a no becasue you didn't tell DVLA, error can be corrected under the "slip error" rulings claiming a typo) concentrate on the 6 months to lay papers, They send a new corrected NIP and give you 28 days to respond, hoping you will cough and take a fixed penalty, you ignore it let the 6 months pass, then phone them up and ask if it's correct what you've been told that a summons has to be issued within 6 months. When I did this it was hilarious as the girl I got, transferred me to a "supervisor" who simply would not give me a straight answer no matter what I asked him, I got "we would not normal summons after six month", I asked "is it not a case of you can not summons after six months for this offence" robotic "we would not normally" we went on for about 5 mins of questions about can you or can you not and he just wouldn't say "you're right we can't and we're trying it on" In the end I said simply "So as we're now past six months this NIP is totally worthless and I can simply throw it away and there's nothing you can do about it?" To which he went on a moral crusade about it being somthing between me and my concionse (sp? see can't even spell it as I obviously don't have one where speed cameras are concerned 
) After I stopped laughing I bid him fairwell and never heard anything since.
) After I stopped laughing I bid him fairwell and never heard anything since.Sounds good so far!
Just to clarify then, as I'm slightly confused...
do i need them to send me a new NIP to make this work? or can i still respond the one i have that is dated just under 6 months since the offence?
interestingly I got another NIP at the same time for another offence on the same road (the wife again!) on March 21. this one had no errors but can i drag out the process so that the summons is again after 6 months?
all this help is greatly appreciated.
Just to clarify then, as I'm slightly confused...
do i need them to send me a new NIP to make this work? or can i still respond the one i have that is dated just under 6 months since the offence?
interestingly I got another NIP at the same time for another offence on the same road (the wife again!) on March 21. this one had no errors but can i drag out the process so that the summons is again after 6 months?
all this help is greatly appreciated.
To correct the earlier reply which said to ignore the NiP. Under S172, if you fail to respond to it as required by law, there is no 6 month limit and they'll just go for you for failing to identify. However, if you do identify and they don't or haven't laid the papers in respect of the speeding inside 6 months, then the speeding times out, but you have complied with the S172 as required so no further action is possible.
On the other, newer one, you could try to delay the laying of the papers by requiring to see the photographs to try to find out who was driving, then naming your wife, then she requires to see the photos before naming the driver, then she names you, then you still say you are not sure, but name yourself, or the wife (again) and she then 'fesses-up'. If 6 months have passed it may just go away, but don't rely on it and beware a prosecution for something far more serious could follow if you try this and they get nasty about it. DvD is the best to advise on this, maybe, as he's helpful and really knows the law. Just be careful!
On the other, newer one, you could try to delay the laying of the papers by requiring to see the photographs to try to find out who was driving, then naming your wife, then she requires to see the photos before naming the driver, then she names you, then you still say you are not sure, but name yourself, or the wife (again) and she then 'fesses-up'. If 6 months have passed it may just go away, but don't rely on it and beware a prosecution for something far more serious could follow if you try this and they get nasty about it. DvD is the best to advise on this, maybe, as he's helpful and really knows the law. Just be careful!
Cooperman said:
On the other, newer one, you could try to delay the laying of the papers by requiring to see the photographs to try to find out who was driving, then naming your wife, then she requires to see the photos before naming the driver, then she names you, then you still say you are not sure, but name yourself, or the wife (again) and she then 'fesses-up'. If 6 months have passed it may just go away, but don't rely on it and beware a prosecution for something far more serious could follow if you try this and they get nasty about it. DvD is the best to advise on this, maybe, as he's helpful and really knows the law. Just be careful!
I don't think nodz requires to be that careful..The NIP refers to an alleged speeding offence on 21.03.2007.
This offence will be time expired (ie cannot be prosecuted) on 22.09.2007.
The NIP was received recently - let's assume 31.07.2007.
The NIP is addressed to Mr Nodz but Mrs Nodz was driving.
Mr Nodz has 28 days (upto 27 August) in which to nominate Mrs Nodz.
Mrs Nodz would receive her own NIP, say, on 2 September (quick turnaround).
Mrs Nodz is required to respond by 30 September.
If Mrs Nodz responds AFTER 22 September (such that the alleged speeding is time expired) but BEFORE 30 September (thus complying with her obligations under s.172 RTA 1988) then she would be home free.
No need for delaying tactics at all..
SS2. said:
Cooperman said:
On the other, newer one, you could try to delay the laying of the papers by requiring to see the photographs to try to find out who was driving, then naming your wife, then she requires to see the photos before naming the driver, then she names you, then you still say you are not sure, but name yourself, or the wife (again) and she then 'fesses-up'. If 6 months have passed it may just go away, but don't rely on it and beware a prosecution for something far more serious could follow if you try this and they get nasty about it. DvD is the best to advise on this, maybe, as he's helpful and really knows the law. Just be careful!
I don't think nodz requires to be that careful..The NIP refers to an alleged speeding offence on 21.03.2007.
This offence will be time expired (ie cannot be prosecuted) on 22.09.2007.
The NIP was received recently - let's assume 31.07.2007.
The NIP is addressed to Mr Nodz but Mrs Nodz was driving.
Mr Nodz has 28 days (upto 27 August) in which to nominate Mrs Nodz.
Mrs Nodz would receive her own NIP, say, on 2 September (quick turnaround).
Mrs Nodz is required to respond by 30 September.
If Mrs Nodz responds AFTER 22 September (such that the alleged speeding is time expired) but BEFORE 30 September (thus complying with her obligations under s.172 RTA 1988) then she would be home free.
No need for delaying tactics at all..
Edited by esselte on Friday 3rd August 12:55
The 6 months is for the laying of information with the court, not the issue of summons i think. So they could lay the information and after the 6 months issue the summons.
Also i thought the 6 months was from the date that a suspect had been identified not the date of offence (i may be wrong and will happily stand corrected).
It really doesnt matter about the DVLA as the NOIP has been complied with and anyhow its for the DVLA to sort the penalties for that.
So be carefull about the 6 month rule!
Also i thought the 6 months was from the date that a suspect had been identified not the date of offence (i may be wrong and will happily stand corrected).
It really doesnt matter about the DVLA as the NOIP has been complied with and anyhow its for the DVLA to sort the penalties for that.
So be carefull about the 6 month rule!
^Slider^ said:
The 6 months is for the laying of information with the court, not the issue of summons i think. So they could lay the information and after the 6 months issue the summons.
Yes. But until Mrs Nodz nominates herself as the driver, there exists no evidence of driver identity. Accordingly, an information cannot be laid for the substantive speeding offence because the driver is unknown.Evidence, to the required criminal standard, of driver identity will exist only once Mrs Nodz has nominated herself. By the time she has done this, it will be too late for an information to be laid for the speeding.
And as long as Mrs Nodz responds to the s.172 within the timescale permitted (but after 22.09.2007 - speeding 'timeout'), she avoids the risk of prosecution for failing to furnish.
^Slider^ said:
Also i thought the 6 months was from the date that a suspect had been identified not the date of offence (i may be wrong and will happily stand corrected).
I think you are thinking of insurance offences and the like. For these, it is 'within a period of six months from the date on which evidence sufficient in the opinion of the prosecutor to warrant the proceedings came to his knowledge.' See Section 6 RTOA 1988.For speeding & failing to furnish, proceedings must be commenced with 6 calendar months of the commission of the offence.
^Slider^ said:
It really doesnt matter about the DVLA as the NOIP has been complied with and anyhow its for the DVLA to sort the penalties for that.
Absolutely..^Slider^ said:
So be carefull about the 6 month rule!
Seconded ! Edited by SS2. on Friday 3rd August 13:36
But could they not lay the information based on the information that the R/K is suspected of the offence of excess speed? And then once sufficient information has come to light to identify the driver via the NOIP then a variation of the information could be made?
I was thinking that untill the driver has been identified then the 6 months does not start. I appreciate the 6 months with sufficient evidence to procede, but untill the driver is identified then there may be insufficient evidence to be able to summons?
I know i have contradicted myself, just getting it straight in my head as its not something i really deal with!
Gareth
I was thinking that untill the driver has been identified then the 6 months does not start. I appreciate the 6 months with sufficient evidence to procede, but untill the driver is identified then there may be insufficient evidence to be able to summons?
I know i have contradicted myself, just getting it straight in my head as its not something i really deal with!
Gareth
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