Discussion
I wasn't really sure where to post this, due to it's mix of gaming and "real life" questions but have settled on here ! (mods, please relocate if necessary).
I'm a big fan of racing games (as are most people on here!), particularly F1 games.
Now, on these games, there are all kinds of setup options to adjust. What I was wondering is if anyone could explain the effects these settings have on handling, as this has never been my strong point, and I want to increase my understanding of it all.
Wings and tyre compounds I get, but all the other stuff really confuses me !
Below is a list of the aspects that I can adjust;
Tyre Pressures
Ride Height
Toe In/Out
Front & Rear Cambers
Front & Rear Anti Roll Bars
Front/Rear/Left/Right Spring Rates
Front/Rear/Left/Right Bump Dampers
I think this is all of them, if I remember anymore, I'll put them up !
Any help here would be greatly appreciated !!
Thanks all !
Matt
I'm a big fan of racing games (as are most people on here!), particularly F1 games.
Now, on these games, there are all kinds of setup options to adjust. What I was wondering is if anyone could explain the effects these settings have on handling, as this has never been my strong point, and I want to increase my understanding of it all.
Wings and tyre compounds I get, but all the other stuff really confuses me !
Below is a list of the aspects that I can adjust;Tyre Pressures
Ride Height
Toe In/Out
Front & Rear Cambers
Front & Rear Anti Roll Bars
Front/Rear/Left/Right Spring Rates
Front/Rear/Left/Right Bump Dampers
I think this is all of them, if I remember anymore, I'll put them up !
Any help here would be greatly appreciated !!
Thanks all !
Matt
I'll have a go for you, relating to real life F1 cars:-
Tyre Pressures - generally go as low as you can without suffering from sidewall failures. Current F1 cars run around 17-18 psi hot running pressures i.e measured immediately at the end of a run. Lower pressures generally improve grip and traction. Safety is the limiting factor in how low they can run.
Ride Height - Very important parameter on an F1 car, due to the aerodynamic sensitivity. Aim to set the front ride height as low as possible without grounding out the plank excessively at very high speeds. Rear ride height should also be set as low as possible, but this will be statically higher than the front due to the softer rear springing. Note that changes of +/- 1 mm are significant on the real cars. You should re-tune ride heights every time you change your front or rear wing settings.
Toe in or out - Generally run slight toe-out on the front and toe-in on the rear for stability on corner entry. Rarely change these settings in real life. Typical values are less than 0.25 deg per wheel.
Front & rear cambers - Always run negative camber at both ends, typically 2-3 deg front and 0.5-1 deg rear. To tune camber you need to look at the temperature and wear profile across the surface of each tyre. For example, if the tyre is excessively hot and worn on the inside shoulder, you may be running too much negative camber. You should aim for a temperature spread of around 10-15 degC across the tyre, slightly hotter on the inside. Rear camber is always low on an F1 car to maximise straight line traction and braking. If you're being clever, you might end up running slightly asymmetric cambers to optimise each tyre eg front left 3 deg, front right 2.5 deg. This is obviously track dependent.
Front & rear anti-roll bars - These are used to adjust the ratio of front-rear roll stiffness. A stiffer front anti-roll bar will tend to reduce oversteer, but you should consider it a secondary effect compared to tuning the front wing setting. The rear anti-roll bar should be set as soft as possible, many F1 cars don't even have one fitted. Adjusting the roll stiffness with the use of anti-roll bars is often referred to by engineers as the "mechanical" balance.
Front & rear spring rates - These affect the vertical stiffness of the suspension. Typically you need stiff springs on the front and relatively soft springs on the rear. Softer springs generally improve low speed grip and traction, particularly on a bumpy track, but at the expense of higher ride heights and therefore less downforce.
Damper settings - not so important on a real F1 car, honestly. Just set them to mid settings and leave well alone!!
Haven't covered wing settings here, but I'm sure you're aware these are the primary settings (along with ride heights) that you need to get right. Set your drag level (i.e to achieve your target max speed) with the rear wing and then use the front wing setting to adjust the car balance in high speed corners. If it oversteers, reduce front wing. If it understeers increase front wing. Do not adjust car balance with the rear wing. Only use rear wing to adjust your top speed. Everything else is fine tuning.
That's about all there is to it. Have fun!!
Tyre Pressures - generally go as low as you can without suffering from sidewall failures. Current F1 cars run around 17-18 psi hot running pressures i.e measured immediately at the end of a run. Lower pressures generally improve grip and traction. Safety is the limiting factor in how low they can run.
Ride Height - Very important parameter on an F1 car, due to the aerodynamic sensitivity. Aim to set the front ride height as low as possible without grounding out the plank excessively at very high speeds. Rear ride height should also be set as low as possible, but this will be statically higher than the front due to the softer rear springing. Note that changes of +/- 1 mm are significant on the real cars. You should re-tune ride heights every time you change your front or rear wing settings.
Toe in or out - Generally run slight toe-out on the front and toe-in on the rear for stability on corner entry. Rarely change these settings in real life. Typical values are less than 0.25 deg per wheel.
Front & rear cambers - Always run negative camber at both ends, typically 2-3 deg front and 0.5-1 deg rear. To tune camber you need to look at the temperature and wear profile across the surface of each tyre. For example, if the tyre is excessively hot and worn on the inside shoulder, you may be running too much negative camber. You should aim for a temperature spread of around 10-15 degC across the tyre, slightly hotter on the inside. Rear camber is always low on an F1 car to maximise straight line traction and braking. If you're being clever, you might end up running slightly asymmetric cambers to optimise each tyre eg front left 3 deg, front right 2.5 deg. This is obviously track dependent.
Front & rear anti-roll bars - These are used to adjust the ratio of front-rear roll stiffness. A stiffer front anti-roll bar will tend to reduce oversteer, but you should consider it a secondary effect compared to tuning the front wing setting. The rear anti-roll bar should be set as soft as possible, many F1 cars don't even have one fitted. Adjusting the roll stiffness with the use of anti-roll bars is often referred to by engineers as the "mechanical" balance.
Front & rear spring rates - These affect the vertical stiffness of the suspension. Typically you need stiff springs on the front and relatively soft springs on the rear. Softer springs generally improve low speed grip and traction, particularly on a bumpy track, but at the expense of higher ride heights and therefore less downforce.
Damper settings - not so important on a real F1 car, honestly. Just set them to mid settings and leave well alone!!
Haven't covered wing settings here, but I'm sure you're aware these are the primary settings (along with ride heights) that you need to get right. Set your drag level (i.e to achieve your target max speed) with the rear wing and then use the front wing setting to adjust the car balance in high speed corners. If it oversteers, reduce front wing. If it understeers increase front wing. Do not adjust car balance with the rear wing. Only use rear wing to adjust your top speed. Everything else is fine tuning.
That's about all there is to it. Have fun!!
uktrailmonster said:
Damper settings - not so important on a real F1 car, honestly. Just set them to mid settings and leave well alone!!
Really? On a GT car (and LMPs) dampers are critical and are one of my main tuning areas. We don't have anywhere near as much aero, obviously, but I'm still surprised that dampers aren't considered important in F1. I have a mate at one of the big damper players and his F1 clients seem to take it seriously enough. The Champ Car scene was always awash with damper redesigns, too (prior to the '07 season, of course).
Ahonen said:
uktrailmonster said:
Damper settings - not so important on a real F1 car, honestly. Just set them to mid settings and leave well alone!!
Really? On a GT car (and LMPs) dampers are critical and are one of my main tuning areas. Edited by FourWheelDrift on Friday 3rd August 16:14
Hey, I never said we didn't spend ages testing dampers on 7-post rigs etc. It's just that in the current regs, there isn't much to be gained from messing with damper settings. We've been running pretty much the same valving specs for the last couple of years. They're not even user adjustable any more to save weight.
Anyone who thinks there's serious laptime in dampers, is either running some ridiculous settings or deluding themselves. Sure you can make the car "feel" different, but it won't go any faster around the track. It's not just F1 either, same applies to Touring cars, Sports cars and pretty much everything else with stiff springs and not much travel.
I know there are plenty of damper "gurus" out there who think differently, but I haven't seen any evidence in over 15 years of trackside experience (excluding active ride systems - which are not really dampers anyway)
Mass inertia dampers can be a small advantage for controlling pitch oscillation, but isn't the huge deal made out in the press recently.
Anyone who thinks there's serious laptime in dampers, is either running some ridiculous settings or deluding themselves. Sure you can make the car "feel" different, but it won't go any faster around the track. It's not just F1 either, same applies to Touring cars, Sports cars and pretty much everything else with stiff springs and not much travel.
I know there are plenty of damper "gurus" out there who think differently, but I haven't seen any evidence in over 15 years of trackside experience (excluding active ride systems - which are not really dampers anyway)
Mass inertia dampers can be a small advantage for controlling pitch oscillation, but isn't the huge deal made out in the press recently.
uktrailmonster said:
Anyone who thinks there's serious laptime in dampers, is either running some ridiculous settings or deluding themselves. Sure you can make the car "feel" different, but it won't go any faster around the track. It's not just F1 either, same applies to Touring cars, Sports cars and pretty much everything else with stiff springs and not much travel.
If a car feels different the driver will make it go faster around the track. A couple of low-speed clicks here and there can certainly make a difference on a GT car - and I'm very sure we're not running ridiculous settings. We obviously have more wheel travel than an F1 car, with the extra difference of having much lower profile tyres.you need to consider that an F1 car has more movement in the tyres than the suspension, and the dampers only cover the springs, NOT the tyres - hence the reason mass dampers where such an inspired idea.
GT cars are way more sensitive to dampers than F1 cars, they have way more suspension travel to play.
GT cars are way more sensitive to dampers than F1 cars, they have way more suspension travel to play.
Well if you think a couple of clicks of low speed damping makes your driver feel better, then why not. We don't even bother having adjustable dampers on our F1 cars anymore. We just derive damper settings from rig testing and run the same fixed valving at every track. I know it sounds simplistic, but it really makes no difference to laptimes or tyre wear. All the damper development we do is aimed at making them lighter. Mass dampers were a small distraction for a little while, but as usual, the media hyped them up as being something major.
Even in F1, track testing time is precious, so we try not to waste it testing stuff that makes little or no difference to performance. Dampers are right at the bottom of the pile in this respect. Carrying out a back-to-back track test on dampers is almost unheard of in the last few years. They're a fit and forget item. If you're working on GT cars with a much smaller budget, I would suggest spending your time on other things.
Even in F1, track testing time is precious, so we try not to waste it testing stuff that makes little or no difference to performance. Dampers are right at the bottom of the pile in this respect. Carrying out a back-to-back track test on dampers is almost unheard of in the last few years. They're a fit and forget item. If you're working on GT cars with a much smaller budget, I would suggest spending your time on other things.
Well I can't say I've ever worked on GT cars, but I've seen some horrendously over-damped ones in my time. I did work for a long time with BTCC cars in their mid-late 90s heyday and spent a lot of time messing with dampers on those. I concluded after several years and a lot of serious rig and track testing that they weren't worth much laptime. Although some engineers do seem to get quite obsessed by them. But I would agree that cars with lots of aero and high volume tyres are less sensitive to damping for obvious reasons.
Dampers are, in my view, far more important on rally cars, motocross bikes and downhill mountain bikes i.e off roaders in general.
But this is only my opinion and experience, so take it as you will.
Dampers are, in my view, far more important on rally cars, motocross bikes and downhill mountain bikes i.e off roaders in general.
But this is only my opinion and experience, so take it as you will.
I guessed you might ask that!
If you have the facilities to develop the aero and engine power, then obviously focus your efforts on those.
On the structural side, minimise suspension and steering friction, reduce suspension and chassis compliance.
If you mean trackside setup tuning with what you've got on the day, then in order of priority:-
Aero balance - optimise wing settings if adjustable, then optimise ride heights. Guaranteed laptime in this!
Tyres - optimise pressures, temp and wear profiles. Might have to adjust suspension stiffness, cambers, toes etc to improve.
Weight distribution - if you have ballast to play with, this is the number one non-aero parameter to optimise. 0.5% changes are significant and will affect front-rear tyre wear, balance, traction, turn-in stability etc.
Roll stiffness distribution - tweak bars and springs for low speed balance adjustment.
Heave stiffness - springs really. Go soft if it's bumpy, stiffer if it's not. But don't waste hours debating over 50 lb/in changes because it won't make much difference!
Contol settings - diff, TC, engine braking etc if you can or are allowed to.
Presumably you'll have run out of test time by this point and none of the above will be completely optimised! If we have to mention dampers again, make sure they have minimum friction and hysteresis, especially if subjected to side loadings etc. And it's better to run under-damped than over-damped.
If you have the facilities to develop the aero and engine power, then obviously focus your efforts on those.
On the structural side, minimise suspension and steering friction, reduce suspension and chassis compliance.
If you mean trackside setup tuning with what you've got on the day, then in order of priority:-
Aero balance - optimise wing settings if adjustable, then optimise ride heights. Guaranteed laptime in this!
Tyres - optimise pressures, temp and wear profiles. Might have to adjust suspension stiffness, cambers, toes etc to improve.
Weight distribution - if you have ballast to play with, this is the number one non-aero parameter to optimise. 0.5% changes are significant and will affect front-rear tyre wear, balance, traction, turn-in stability etc.
Roll stiffness distribution - tweak bars and springs for low speed balance adjustment.
Heave stiffness - springs really. Go soft if it's bumpy, stiffer if it's not. But don't waste hours debating over 50 lb/in changes because it won't make much difference!
Contol settings - diff, TC, engine braking etc if you can or are allowed to.
Presumably you'll have run out of test time by this point and none of the above will be completely optimised! If we have to mention dampers again, make sure they have minimum friction and hysteresis, especially if subjected to side loadings etc. And it's better to run under-damped than over-damped.
uktrailmonster said:
I guessed you might ask that!
If you have the facilities to develop the aero and engine power, then obviously focus your efforts on those.
On the structural side, minimise suspension and steering friction, reduce suspension and chassis compliance.
If you mean trackside setup tuning with what you've got on the day, then in order of priority:-
Aero balance - optimise wing settings if adjustable, then optimise ride heights. Guaranteed laptime in this!
Tyres - optimise pressures, temp and wear profiles. Might have to adjust suspension stiffness, cambers, toes etc to improve.
Weight distribution - if you have ballast to play with, this is the number one non-aero parameter to optimise. 0.5% changes are significant and will affect front-rear tyre wear, balance, traction, turn-in stability etc.
Roll stiffness distribution - tweak bars and springs for low speed balance adjustment.
Heave stiffness - springs really. Go soft if it's bumpy, stiffer if it's not. But don't waste hours debating over 50 lb/in changes because it won't make much difference!
Contol settings - diff, TC, engine braking etc if you can or are allowed to.
Presumably you'll have run out of test time by this point and none of the above will be completely optimised! If we have to mention dampers again, make sure they have minimum friction and hysteresis, especially if subjected to side loadings etc. And it's better to run under-damped than over-damped.
Well there was good reason for my asking, which will become clear!If you have the facilities to develop the aero and engine power, then obviously focus your efforts on those.
On the structural side, minimise suspension and steering friction, reduce suspension and chassis compliance.
If you mean trackside setup tuning with what you've got on the day, then in order of priority:-
Aero balance - optimise wing settings if adjustable, then optimise ride heights. Guaranteed laptime in this!
Tyres - optimise pressures, temp and wear profiles. Might have to adjust suspension stiffness, cambers, toes etc to improve.
Weight distribution - if you have ballast to play with, this is the number one non-aero parameter to optimise. 0.5% changes are significant and will affect front-rear tyre wear, balance, traction, turn-in stability etc.
Roll stiffness distribution - tweak bars and springs for low speed balance adjustment.
Heave stiffness - springs really. Go soft if it's bumpy, stiffer if it's not. But don't waste hours debating over 50 lb/in changes because it won't make much difference!
Contol settings - diff, TC, engine braking etc if you can or are allowed to.
Presumably you'll have run out of test time by this point and none of the above will be completely optimised! If we have to mention dampers again, make sure they have minimum friction and hysteresis, especially if subjected to side loadings etc. And it's better to run under-damped than over-damped.
I work in a number of championships, all of which involve GT cars or similar, but I'll focus on GT3 for the moment or I'll be tapping away all night.
Engine, aero development and chassis stiffness - all fixed by homologation.
Aero balance - we run with all the front aero we can get, as the total available is pretty small. We have a fixed profile rear wing (which is quite shallow), some angle adjustment and a limited Gurney choice. Our high-speed balance is good and our top speed only limited by the length of the straights. GT3 regs give us a set ride height, which has been raised more and more through the season to slow us down (wrecking the underbody aero).
Tyres - sorted. Always a big focus area for me. Compounds fixed by GT3 regs, no alternative constructions either. I've also picked up a few tricks from a friend of mine who's a tyre engineer in ALMS.
Weight distribution - fine. We carry well over 200kgs of ballast under GT3 rules (1360kg dry), so it's quite easy to move a little around...
Roll stiffness - we have bar adjustment and a choice of three spring rates at either end. We also have a very good baseline.
Heave - yep, 50lb on a 1400kg car certainly makes no difference! We have a good balance and our springs are as stiff as we need.
TC - doesn't take long to sort. We have a simple TC system and dialing in to each track is a straightforward task.
Diff - ramps are set by homologation, as is the preload.
Ratios - fixed by homologation.
With one last word on dampers, our 4-ways are superb - the best I've ever worked with, with minimal hysteresis and zero 'talk'.
So, as you can see, there's not an awful lot I can do to a GT3 car!
I also work in BTCS and LMS (GT2), where aero becomes more of an issue (particularly BTCS, which has very liberal rules), but the particular aero issues are ones I won't go to here.
Edited by Ahonen on Friday 3rd August 21:31
FourWheelDrift said:
Have a look at this
Cheers mate, I will study it closely ! 
uktrailmonster said:
Loads of detailed setup stuff !
Thanks for all of that - it must've taken you ages to write all that out ! I shall take it all in, and begin my virtual test session tomorrow ! San Marino here I come ! PS. Can I ask, do you work in F1 at all ? Feel free to PM !
Edited by I want an Elise! on Friday 3rd August 21:28
I dont agree at all on the dampers not making a diference, you can get some stunning results from damper tuning for particular circuits and for track conditions on the day.
The ability to adjust the damper charicteristics can totally transform a cars behaviour, especially in corner state transitions. Thats why you still get damper engineers attending all the major race series and employed specifically by the major teams.
An F1 team may do the majority of damper work on test rigs and be able to valve the units correctly for the circuit, but they are still going to have the staff available to change those settings should they come to a circuit that has changed significantly since the last test or race attended. The top Le Mans and GT teams do use adjustable dampers and do change the settings at the circuit, so do mere mortals running lower budget afairs.
The ability to adjust the damper charicteristics can totally transform a cars behaviour, especially in corner state transitions. Thats why you still get damper engineers attending all the major race series and employed specifically by the major teams.
An F1 team may do the majority of damper work on test rigs and be able to valve the units correctly for the circuit, but they are still going to have the staff available to change those settings should they come to a circuit that has changed significantly since the last test or race attended. The top Le Mans and GT teams do use adjustable dampers and do change the settings at the circuit, so do mere mortals running lower budget afairs.
johnfelstead said:
I dont agree at all on the dampers not making a diference, you can get some stunning results from damper tuning for particular circuits and for track conditions on the day.
The ability to adjust the damper charicteristics can totally transform a cars behaviour, especially in corner state transitions. Thats why you still get damper engineers attending all the major race series and employed specifically by the major teams.
An F1 team may do the majority of damper work on test rigs and be able to valve the units correctly for the circuit, but they are still going to have the staff available to change those settings should they come to a circuit that has changed significantly since the last test or race attended. The top Le Mans and GT teams do use adjustable dampers and do change the settings at the circuit,
so do mere mortals running lower budget afairs.
Well I've worked specifically in F1 for the last 8 years as a senior race engineer and we haven't changed our damper valving significantly in all that time. We don't make track specific damper changes and we certainly don't consider adjustable dampers worthwhile. We do test them on our 7-post rig regularly and do have a damper development program. Mainly because we have a massive budget to plough through. But it's all aimed at weight saving, consistency, reliability and friction reduction. The end result is a tiny super-lightweight damper with very low friction and consistent fixed characteristics. Believe me, if we thought there was a few nano-seconds to be gained from messing with adjustable dampers at the trackside, we'd be doing it! The fact we don't is a good clue as to their importance.The ability to adjust the damper charicteristics can totally transform a cars behaviour, especially in corner state transitions. Thats why you still get damper engineers attending all the major race series and employed specifically by the major teams.
An F1 team may do the majority of damper work on test rigs and be able to valve the units correctly for the circuit, but they are still going to have the staff available to change those settings should they come to a circuit that has changed significantly since the last test or race attended. The top Le Mans and GT teams do use adjustable dampers and do change the settings at the circuit,
so do mere mortals running lower budget afairs.
Before I worked in F1, I was a top level BTCC race engineer for the best part of a decade. Damper tuning played a much bigger part on those cars and we did a lot more track testing with various characteristics, using 2,4 and even 6-way adjustables. Progressive, digressive, linear, double-digressive and whatever else we could dream up on the damper rigs. I've worked with Penske, Ohlins, Dynamics, XTC, Koni, Bilstein and probably a few others I've forgotten. Did it make the cars any faster compared to a decent set of bog-standard 2-way Konis or Bilsteins? IMHO no, not really.
Ahonen said:
Weight distribution - fine. We carry well over 200kgs of ballast under GT3 rules (1360kg dry), so it's quite easy to move a little around...
I see you haven't got much else to play with, but remember that it's not compulsory to change the car setup every run. Often drivers get more out of a car that stays consistent. It's usually hard enough just dealing with changing track conditions. I bet with your dampers you often end up close to your baseline settings after going round the houses.
uktrailmonster said:
Ahonen said:
Weight distribution - fine. We carry well over 200kgs of ballast under GT3 rules (1360kg dry), so it's quite easy to move a little around...
I see you haven't got much else to play with, but remember that it's not compulsory to change the car setup every run. Often drivers get more out of a car that stays consistent. It's usually hard enough just dealing with changing track conditions. I bet with your dampers you often end up close to your baseline settings after going round the houses.
Well I don't just change the set-up for the sake of it! When working with relatively inexperienced drivers it pays to spend as much time as possible making sure they're driving properly, rather than messing with the car, as I'm sure you know. We also have a superb test driver, who I've worked with for a few years, to help diagnose any handling issues - which means we don't go round the houses.Gassing Station | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff