Finally broke down :-D
Discussion
Hey everyone. I’ve not been on these pages for months since my car has been off the road, but thought I would try and get back into it since I’m now all taxed and MOT’d again! Have I missed much lately?
I actually broke down for the first time yesterday, which isn’t bad for 10 years worth of Wedging. Even so, the car still got me home, but thought I would try here for some ideas. I think I have suspicions of what the problem is, but hey, lets discuss :-P
I haven’t used the car since January, but last week I got it back on the road again. It had half a tank of fuel which I topped up with Optimax just incase it was a bit stale. The car ran perfectly around my home town last week with no faults.
Yesterday I took it to work (about 7 miles), then to a friends house (10 miles) and again it was faultless. It was really hot and sunny out, about 25 degrees. However, when I went to get a takeaway in the early evening, the car cut out a junction a few hundred metres down the road. I tried to restart, but the starter just turned the engine over for about 20 seconds with no hint of firing. There was nothing behind so I released the fuel cap incase there was some funny pressurisation thing happening, but no hiss was heard when I removed it. I tried to start it again and it struggled into life. After this, the car was running really roughly. It seemed ok if I kept a constant speed, but if I took my foot of the accelerator in 5th for a bend and then tried gradually speeding up again, the engine would miss really badly.
I put the car into natural whilst moving and gave it some revs and it would mostly be fine. It would sit there at 5000 rpm for 10 seconds or so, which satisfied me that fuel was getting to the engine ok. If I stopped and pulled away again using lots of revs and speed, then the car would run ok. Slow down for a roundabout though, and it would struggle to idle and then wouldn’t pull away again. A couple of times, I got to a roundabout and knew the car was struggling to run, so managed to coast out of the first exit to safety whereby the engine would cut out and not start again. It would just spin on the starter, barely trying to fire. Leave it 2 mins and it would struggle into life again, but more often than not miss at lower engine speeds or anything other than full throttle or steady speeds. That really did seem to be the key thing. If I nailed the throttle, it would normally pull strongly, but get stuck behind someone slow and then give the car a small amount of gas and it would miss and judder.
All in all, there was a very apparent engine misfire, but keep the thing at a nice steady speed of about 70mph and it was fine. Just didn’t seem to like coasting down and then speeding up again, and the cutting out and failing to restart issue is also really worrying.
Sooo, what does everyone reckon? I’m thinking it’s a fuel issue, but unsure if its too much or too little. The pump is probably the original from 160,000 miles ago and was making quite a buzz when I finally got home. Maybe this isn’t supplying enough fuel which I will check with a pressure gauge on the cold start injector fuel pipe. Of course, it could also be the fuel pressure valve has failed and is allowing either too much or too little fuel pressure in the rails. Maybe it’s the temp sensor next to the dizzy? Fuel evaporation is another possible reason, however I’ve never suffered with this before. ECU could also have a dry joint, but again has been fine for years. Maybe parking it up for 6 months has caused something to stick and is now becoming apparent. I should just say that the leads, coil, cap and arm are all relatively new.
Where shall I start! :-P
I actually broke down for the first time yesterday, which isn’t bad for 10 years worth of Wedging. Even so, the car still got me home, but thought I would try here for some ideas. I think I have suspicions of what the problem is, but hey, lets discuss :-P
I haven’t used the car since January, but last week I got it back on the road again. It had half a tank of fuel which I topped up with Optimax just incase it was a bit stale. The car ran perfectly around my home town last week with no faults.
Yesterday I took it to work (about 7 miles), then to a friends house (10 miles) and again it was faultless. It was really hot and sunny out, about 25 degrees. However, when I went to get a takeaway in the early evening, the car cut out a junction a few hundred metres down the road. I tried to restart, but the starter just turned the engine over for about 20 seconds with no hint of firing. There was nothing behind so I released the fuel cap incase there was some funny pressurisation thing happening, but no hiss was heard when I removed it. I tried to start it again and it struggled into life. After this, the car was running really roughly. It seemed ok if I kept a constant speed, but if I took my foot of the accelerator in 5th for a bend and then tried gradually speeding up again, the engine would miss really badly.
I put the car into natural whilst moving and gave it some revs and it would mostly be fine. It would sit there at 5000 rpm for 10 seconds or so, which satisfied me that fuel was getting to the engine ok. If I stopped and pulled away again using lots of revs and speed, then the car would run ok. Slow down for a roundabout though, and it would struggle to idle and then wouldn’t pull away again. A couple of times, I got to a roundabout and knew the car was struggling to run, so managed to coast out of the first exit to safety whereby the engine would cut out and not start again. It would just spin on the starter, barely trying to fire. Leave it 2 mins and it would struggle into life again, but more often than not miss at lower engine speeds or anything other than full throttle or steady speeds. That really did seem to be the key thing. If I nailed the throttle, it would normally pull strongly, but get stuck behind someone slow and then give the car a small amount of gas and it would miss and judder.
All in all, there was a very apparent engine misfire, but keep the thing at a nice steady speed of about 70mph and it was fine. Just didn’t seem to like coasting down and then speeding up again, and the cutting out and failing to restart issue is also really worrying.
Sooo, what does everyone reckon? I’m thinking it’s a fuel issue, but unsure if its too much or too little. The pump is probably the original from 160,000 miles ago and was making quite a buzz when I finally got home. Maybe this isn’t supplying enough fuel which I will check with a pressure gauge on the cold start injector fuel pipe. Of course, it could also be the fuel pressure valve has failed and is allowing either too much or too little fuel pressure in the rails. Maybe it’s the temp sensor next to the dizzy? Fuel evaporation is another possible reason, however I’ve never suffered with this before. ECU could also have a dry joint, but again has been fine for years. Maybe parking it up for 6 months has caused something to stick and is now becoming apparent. I should just say that the leads, coil, cap and arm are all relatively new.
Where shall I start! :-P
mine has just been doing something similar after not being used much. Ran fine, got rougher then wouldn't start. Took the plugs out and cleaned them up including cleaning the contacts properly with a bit of wet&dry.(they were black and covered in fuel). Still no luck.
Towed the car to local garage - they replaced the plugs and it started fine. Unfortunately they foudn other problems but that's a different matter!
So - have you tried replacing the plugs and see if that helps. At least it's a cheap option.
Towed the car to local garage - they replaced the plugs and it started fine. Unfortunately they foudn other problems but that's a different matter!
So - have you tried replacing the plugs and see if that helps. At least it's a cheap option.
After checking the coolant temperature sensor (ha!) I would suspect the throttle pot in this case. Part throttle - intermittent connection - no gas.
Also - that doesn't count as a breakdown - it got you home after all ;^) This is because the inbuild redundancy of the wedge, it'll only rarely let you down.
Also - that doesn't count as a breakdown - it got you home after all ;^) This is because the inbuild redundancy of the wedge, it'll only rarely let you down.
Edited by adam quantrill on Monday 6th August 15:01
Thanks so far guys. I hate these sort of problems as more often than not you never get to discover the actual cause of the problem! You fiddle about a change a few things, and it runs fine... I like to see a broken part!
But anyway, I think its going to be something simple. I will test the throttle pot with a multi metre, test the fuel pressure with a guage, test the temp sender but putting it on the stove with a multimeter connnected somehow (???) and replace the fuel filter. If the fuel pressure is too low then it must be the pump, filter or valve, too high and it must be the valve only.
I think I may put a new pump on anyway as mine is old. I'm sure ebay will turn one up...
Dan.
But anyway, I think its going to be something simple. I will test the throttle pot with a multi metre, test the fuel pressure with a guage, test the temp sender but putting it on the stove with a multimeter connnected somehow (???) and replace the fuel filter. If the fuel pressure is too low then it must be the pump, filter or valve, too high and it must be the valve only.
I think I may put a new pump on anyway as mine is old. I'm sure ebay will turn one up...
Dan.
Try to reseat the injector resistor pack, on mine it is mounted on the inner nearside wing. About the size of a cigarette pack with quite a fer wires going in to it.
Either try wiggling the connector or remove it entirely and clean up - don't forget liberal doses of vaseline to stop it corroding later.
Russ
Either try wiggling the connector or remove it entirely and clean up - don't forget liberal doses of vaseline to stop it corroding later.
Russ
Dan, hopefully you fixed it by now. Seems like the coolant temperature sensor symptoms I had. Simple test is to take the connection off and short it out. If the engine runs fine, replace it and hopefully it is sorted. Resistor pack is mentioned, but the main connector to the ECU can play up as well. Both disconnect and reconnect properly can be easily done.
Another possibility could be the fuel pressure regulator. The standard one should not have these issues after standing for some time, but certain rising rate types... (I have one with a gauge attached and it needs adjusting a lot, and a lot etc.)
Other possibilities. Flapper: AFM and as mentioned before throttle pot (but then it should idle fine if it would be the throttle pot....)Distributor&lifier would be worth a look at. But all these things would be things I would check after ruling out the temperature sensor. Fuel pump can be checked if you have a fuel pressure gauge and it achieves over 3.5 bar easily (sorry don't know this in psi).
Rob
Another possibility could be the fuel pressure regulator. The standard one should not have these issues after standing for some time, but certain rising rate types... (I have one with a gauge attached and it needs adjusting a lot, and a lot etc.)
Other possibilities. Flapper: AFM and as mentioned before throttle pot (but then it should idle fine if it would be the throttle pot....)Distributor&lifier would be worth a look at. But all these things would be things I would check after ruling out the temperature sensor. Fuel pump can be checked if you have a fuel pressure gauge and it achieves over 3.5 bar easily (sorry don't know this in psi).
Rob
Thanks for the advice everyone - much appreciated! Sorry for not responding before now - really haven't had a chance to investigate the problem yet in much detail and have only managed to do a few very basic checks.
I ran the fuel pump for about 5 minutes with the engine off by opening the flapper. Seemed to run ok, but wasn't exactly a smooth sounding noise. Sounded a bit like a bearing had gone in the pump, but I'm not sure how "smooth" the pump should sound since you never hear it above the engine. I also checked the fuel pressure which stayed at 2.6 bar, although the engine wasn't running which would obviously make a difference.
I took a couple of plugs out and they seemed relatively normal, although the sides of little metal conductor thingy had a very pale grey coating, maybe hinting that its running lean. Could be nothing though!
I checked the potentiometre and that ranged from .3v to around 3.8v at full throttle, with no signs of breakages throughout its sweep.
I've just posted on Jmorgans topic below since he seems to be having similar issues to me, and have listed the things I'm going to try at the weekend. Namely, putting a timing strobe on a lead so that I can see if the plugs are firing, putting a bulb on the pump so I can see if this is working, and putting a pressure gauge on a fuel hose to check the pressure whilst on a road test. I will also check all the other wiring, ECU, temp sensors, resistor pack etc, but would like to find the exact cause of the problem before I fiddle too much and fix it without realising it! Will keep you posted!
I ran the fuel pump for about 5 minutes with the engine off by opening the flapper. Seemed to run ok, but wasn't exactly a smooth sounding noise. Sounded a bit like a bearing had gone in the pump, but I'm not sure how "smooth" the pump should sound since you never hear it above the engine. I also checked the fuel pressure which stayed at 2.6 bar, although the engine wasn't running which would obviously make a difference.
I took a couple of plugs out and they seemed relatively normal, although the sides of little metal conductor thingy had a very pale grey coating, maybe hinting that its running lean. Could be nothing though!
I checked the potentiometre and that ranged from .3v to around 3.8v at full throttle, with no signs of breakages throughout its sweep.
I've just posted on Jmorgans topic below since he seems to be having similar issues to me, and have listed the things I'm going to try at the weekend. Namely, putting a timing strobe on a lead so that I can see if the plugs are firing, putting a bulb on the pump so I can see if this is working, and putting a pressure gauge on a fuel hose to check the pressure whilst on a road test. I will also check all the other wiring, ECU, temp sensors, resistor pack etc, but would like to find the exact cause of the problem before I fiddle too much and fix it without realising it! Will keep you posted!
Ok, I started the car this morning and moved it out of the garage, however the engine was misfiring. I then remembered I had removed two of the HT leads when I was checking a couple of the plugs. So I stopped the engine and reconnected them. I tried to start the car again, and it wouldn’t fire. It just turned over on the starter with no hint of wanting to start. Its so weird since I didn’t touch anything else on the engine.
I decided to run through all the usual checks, but still cant get it to fire up! Totally confused at the mo!!! Maybe someone can help?
I checked the fuel pump and this is running ok. I connected a pressure gauge to the cold start injector hose again and this read 2.6 bar. When I cranked the engine over, the gauge wobbled about as if the injectors were firing. I then disconnected the fuel pump and cranked the engine over, and the fuel pressure dropped, again hinting that the injectors were operating. As soon as I connected the fuel pump again, the pressure rose to 2.6 bar.
Next, I connected my timing strobe to the king pin lead and cranked the engine again. This showed a consistent pattern of pulses. I then connected it to a few of the HT leads, and this again showed pulses, although they weren’t altogether regular. This could have been my strobe of course, not picking up all of the signals. It would register a few pulses, then pause for a second, then pulse again. Even so, it proved there was energy going to the sparks. I then removed a couple of the spark plus and held them against the plenum, and they produced a spark during cranking. I also swapped the coil over and got the same results.
I checked the resister pack on the wing too. I disconnected the ecu and put a multi meter on the pins going to the injectors, and these registered 12v. I then disconnected the resister pack from the car and measured the ohms from the “input” pins to the 8 “output” ones, and these registered 6.3 ohms each. The pack also has a good grounding when installed on the wing of the car. If I turn the ignition on and crank open the throttle, the injectors click as expected. Now, I thought I read somewhere that this acceleration “click” could be controlled by the ecu and not via the usual injector wiring that powers the injectors in normal operation.
I removed the distributor cap and did a visual inspection. Everything seemed ok. With the ignition switched on, I rotated the vacuum advance around and heard a click from what I assume to be the injectors again. It seemed to happen when the pick-up inside the distributor was aligned with the lobed ring that attaches to the shaft. I take it that this is normal.
I then looked at all the other wiring in the engine bay. The white wire that runs to the ignition amp and over the nearside inner wing was connected as usual, and all other wiring seemed ok. The grounding wires all seem present too, and remember that the engine was running as normal one minute but then failed to start again the next.
I decided to test each of the relays. I popped up the headlights and felt the relays for one which clicked during this process. It turned out to be one on the left hand side of the relay panel in the passenger footwell. I removed this relay on the basis that is seemed to be working when I popped the lights, so assumed it to be a “known good”. I then substituted this relay for every other one in the relay panel, cranking the engine over after each swap for about 5 seconds. Once again, the engine didn’t show any signs of firing. Incidentally, when the ignition is switched on, at least 2 of the relays click which is the same sound that has always been made in the last 10 years or so. I also checked all the wiring to the backs of the relays, but couldn’t see any obvious faults.
I then checked all the fuses and couldn’t see any signs of blown ones, and I also removed the fuse panel and checked for lose wiring to the backs.
I removed the ecu and took it apart. I looked at all the solder joints but couldn’t see any obvious dry joints, although I appreciate that I’m no expert on soldering! Nothing seemed to be blown on either of the boards. I build a lot of PC’s and can normally recognise a blown resistor or capacitor. The multi-plug seemed to fit ok too.
Soooo, at the moment my engine seems to be getting fuel which can be backed up by wet spark plugs after a lot of cranking. It seems to have a spark too according to my timing strobe and also by holding the plug against the plenum. The injectors click when I open the throttle, suggesting that they are working, and the resistor pack has passed a couple of basic tests printed in the efi manual on Wedgepages. The ecu seems fine inside, and the relays/fuses all seem to be working. What else can I check? The engine just cranks over with no sign whatsoever of firing. It doesn’t even try to “catch”. Surely if I have fuel and a spark, something should happen, even if its only a flicker of life!
What else can I try :-(
I decided to run through all the usual checks, but still cant get it to fire up! Totally confused at the mo!!! Maybe someone can help?
I checked the fuel pump and this is running ok. I connected a pressure gauge to the cold start injector hose again and this read 2.6 bar. When I cranked the engine over, the gauge wobbled about as if the injectors were firing. I then disconnected the fuel pump and cranked the engine over, and the fuel pressure dropped, again hinting that the injectors were operating. As soon as I connected the fuel pump again, the pressure rose to 2.6 bar.
Next, I connected my timing strobe to the king pin lead and cranked the engine again. This showed a consistent pattern of pulses. I then connected it to a few of the HT leads, and this again showed pulses, although they weren’t altogether regular. This could have been my strobe of course, not picking up all of the signals. It would register a few pulses, then pause for a second, then pulse again. Even so, it proved there was energy going to the sparks. I then removed a couple of the spark plus and held them against the plenum, and they produced a spark during cranking. I also swapped the coil over and got the same results.
I checked the resister pack on the wing too. I disconnected the ecu and put a multi meter on the pins going to the injectors, and these registered 12v. I then disconnected the resister pack from the car and measured the ohms from the “input” pins to the 8 “output” ones, and these registered 6.3 ohms each. The pack also has a good grounding when installed on the wing of the car. If I turn the ignition on and crank open the throttle, the injectors click as expected. Now, I thought I read somewhere that this acceleration “click” could be controlled by the ecu and not via the usual injector wiring that powers the injectors in normal operation.
I removed the distributor cap and did a visual inspection. Everything seemed ok. With the ignition switched on, I rotated the vacuum advance around and heard a click from what I assume to be the injectors again. It seemed to happen when the pick-up inside the distributor was aligned with the lobed ring that attaches to the shaft. I take it that this is normal.
I then looked at all the other wiring in the engine bay. The white wire that runs to the ignition amp and over the nearside inner wing was connected as usual, and all other wiring seemed ok. The grounding wires all seem present too, and remember that the engine was running as normal one minute but then failed to start again the next.
I decided to test each of the relays. I popped up the headlights and felt the relays for one which clicked during this process. It turned out to be one on the left hand side of the relay panel in the passenger footwell. I removed this relay on the basis that is seemed to be working when I popped the lights, so assumed it to be a “known good”. I then substituted this relay for every other one in the relay panel, cranking the engine over after each swap for about 5 seconds. Once again, the engine didn’t show any signs of firing. Incidentally, when the ignition is switched on, at least 2 of the relays click which is the same sound that has always been made in the last 10 years or so. I also checked all the wiring to the backs of the relays, but couldn’t see any obvious faults.
I then checked all the fuses and couldn’t see any signs of blown ones, and I also removed the fuse panel and checked for lose wiring to the backs.
I removed the ecu and took it apart. I looked at all the solder joints but couldn’t see any obvious dry joints, although I appreciate that I’m no expert on soldering! Nothing seemed to be blown on either of the boards. I build a lot of PC’s and can normally recognise a blown resistor or capacitor. The multi-plug seemed to fit ok too.
Soooo, at the moment my engine seems to be getting fuel which can be backed up by wet spark plugs after a lot of cranking. It seems to have a spark too according to my timing strobe and also by holding the plug against the plenum. The injectors click when I open the throttle, suggesting that they are working, and the resistor pack has passed a couple of basic tests printed in the efi manual on Wedgepages. The ecu seems fine inside, and the relays/fuses all seem to be working. What else can I check? The engine just cranks over with no sign whatsoever of firing. It doesn’t even try to “catch”. Surely if I have fuel and a spark, something should happen, even if its only a flicker of life!
What else can I try :-(
It's a flapper? Disconnect the intake pipe at the plenum and mop up any petrol present, wedge open butterfly and leave overnight, reconnect pipe then Follow the flooded engine start procedure having disconnected the cold start injector. Had this happen the second day I got my wedge two years ago, checked everything, all was OK but engine would not fire at all. Went through 3 days of repeated attempts at starting with no signs of life whatsoever. Once it did start up after missing badly it never did it again.
He he, no apologies needed! I have indeed checked the order of the HT leads just to be on the safe side :-P
I've just spent an hour on it but have given up now for the day as I need to go out. I tried to start it again this morning and and still wouldn't fire. It doesn't even sound like a single cylinder is trying to fire - the engine just turns over...
I took the plugs out and they were quite oily and smelt strongly of fuel. I wire brushed them on the off chance that this was the cause, popped them back in but the car still didn't show any signs of struggling into life again. I decided to remove them all again and just leave things to dry out, and discovered they were totally saturated with fuel again. I guess this kinda proves the injectors are working, but maybe the spark is really weak? My strobe tells me that something is happening and if I lay a plug on the plenum and crank, it sparks, but maybe its not strong enough when under the compression of the engine. I have tried a known good coil too with the same results. I haven't yet changed the cap or rota arm though.
What results would a faulty distributor amp show? Would it simply not produce a spark, or would the spark be weaker, or does the amp have some other purpose?
Is there a relay which tells the engine to "run" once it fires?
I've left it now with all the plugs removed and the butterfly wedges open as suggested! Off to get some food now and have a ponder!!!
Thanks for all the help so far guys.
I've just spent an hour on it but have given up now for the day as I need to go out. I tried to start it again this morning and and still wouldn't fire. It doesn't even sound like a single cylinder is trying to fire - the engine just turns over...
I took the plugs out and they were quite oily and smelt strongly of fuel. I wire brushed them on the off chance that this was the cause, popped them back in but the car still didn't show any signs of struggling into life again. I decided to remove them all again and just leave things to dry out, and discovered they were totally saturated with fuel again. I guess this kinda proves the injectors are working, but maybe the spark is really weak? My strobe tells me that something is happening and if I lay a plug on the plenum and crank, it sparks, but maybe its not strong enough when under the compression of the engine. I have tried a known good coil too with the same results. I haven't yet changed the cap or rota arm though.
What results would a faulty distributor amp show? Would it simply not produce a spark, or would the spark be weaker, or does the amp have some other purpose?
Is there a relay which tells the engine to "run" once it fires?
I've left it now with all the plugs removed and the butterfly wedges open as suggested! Off to get some food now and have a ponder!!!
Thanks for all the help so far guys.
When my amp went on the way to BBWF 06, the car would start but run awful. Not able to rev it. Not saying that is the MO for all fails. My timing light has arrived and going to try to check my amp soon but sort of busy at the mo. Looking through threads on the issue, one way appears to be looking for a good flash off the gun as an indication but not proof of the amp?? Bit in the dark here.
Also, I baked the plugs last time it flooded. Before that it was winter so got the hot air from the iron on it then left them on the house rad for a few hours. I understand that the coating from flooding needs a bit of help to shift? It may be that a good run can do the same if you get it started?
Also, I baked the plugs last time it flooded. Before that it was winter so got the hot air from the iron on it then left them on the house rad for a few hours. I understand that the coating from flooding needs a bit of help to shift? It may be that a good run can do the same if you get it started?
digga951 said:
I took the plugs out and they were quite oily and smelt strongly of fuel. I wire brushed them on the off chance that this was the cause, popped them back in but the car still didn't show any signs of struggling into life again. I decided to remove them all again and just leave things to dry out, and discovered they were totally saturated with fuel again. I guess this kinda proves the injectors are working, but maybe the spark is really weak?
You have proved your sparks are ok but you have serious overfuelling drowning them.Overfuelling culprits in order of theoretical probability
- Fuel pressure regulator damaged. Pressure reads 36 psi but pressure at idle must be 26 psi.
- ECU kaput - transistor output stages short cct.
- One or more injectors weeping or stuck open.
- Cold start injector weeping or stuck open.
- Throttle pot damaged creating electrical noise which ECU interprets as an acceleration signal and supplies full fuel load for every spike.
- Coolant temp sensor broken or wiring open circuit signalling ECU engine is still cold.
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