Buying help - Westfield SE
Discussion
Hi Guys,
Sorry about another 'what car' thread. As you may have gathered I'm looking at a couple of largely sevenesque cars at the moment and another one has popped up.
This time it's a 1990 Westfield SE (narrow body) with a 1600 cross flow and 4 speed box. I realise this is about as basic as Westfield specs go, but are they any good? It's running twin carbs and appears to have been well looked after, but how much of a problem is the lack of a 5th ratio? I've only driven one '7 (a 1300 Locost) and that was quite a while back, so not really sure what to expect in terms of performance etc.
Might be going to have a look at the car tonight, so can anyone recommend things to look for?
Cheers,
Chris.
Sorry about another 'what car' thread. As you may have gathered I'm looking at a couple of largely sevenesque cars at the moment and another one has popped up.
This time it's a 1990 Westfield SE (narrow body) with a 1600 cross flow and 4 speed box. I realise this is about as basic as Westfield specs go, but are they any good? It's running twin carbs and appears to have been well looked after, but how much of a problem is the lack of a 5th ratio? I've only driven one '7 (a 1300 Locost) and that was quite a while back, so not really sure what to expect in terms of performance etc.
Might be going to have a look at the car tonight, so can anyone recommend things to look for?
Cheers,
Chris.
If it's going to be a second car, I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of 5th gear - it only becomes a pain for extended motorway and dual carriageway trips. For what it's worth, a good Ford 4 speed has one of the best gearchanges of any gearbox - a true 'rifle bolt' mechanical action - much better than the 5 speeds. Axle ratio becomes important with 4 speed boxes, though; ideally, you don't want a short ratio - 4.1:1 is bad, 3.9:1 is a good compromise and 3.7:1 is good if you want something a little longer-legged for touring/longer trips.
In terms of what to look for, condition of chassis would be paramount. 1990 is getting on a bit, so make sure there isn't more than superficial corrosion and no signs of damage.
Bodywork would be next priority, 'cos it is so time consuming to tidy up poor fibreglass/paint.
Electrics are pretty simple, so a complete re-wire isn't a problem if you aren't scared of the basics.
Mechanically all the components are cheap and robust apart from the twin Webers, so make sure it runs smoothly and pulls cleanly throughout the rev range, but other than that so long as there are no unpleasant noises, it should be fine. If it's a Crossflow, it's worth checking that it has valve seats suitable for unleaded petrol.
My first 'Seven' was a Westfield to this spec. and, yes, they are good cars - I have very fond memories of mine and didn't experience any horror stories but that was *cough* years ago with a car that was nearly new when I bought it, so you just need to make sure that the condition has been maintained.
In terms of what to look for, condition of chassis would be paramount. 1990 is getting on a bit, so make sure there isn't more than superficial corrosion and no signs of damage.
Bodywork would be next priority, 'cos it is so time consuming to tidy up poor fibreglass/paint.
Electrics are pretty simple, so a complete re-wire isn't a problem if you aren't scared of the basics.
Mechanically all the components are cheap and robust apart from the twin Webers, so make sure it runs smoothly and pulls cleanly throughout the rev range, but other than that so long as there are no unpleasant noises, it should be fine. If it's a Crossflow, it's worth checking that it has valve seats suitable for unleaded petrol.
My first 'Seven' was a Westfield to this spec. and, yes, they are good cars - I have very fond memories of mine and didn't experience any horror stories but that was *cough* years ago with a car that was nearly new when I bought it, so you just need to make sure that the condition has been maintained.
Chris71 said:
This time it's a 1990 Westfield SE (narrow body) with a 1600 cross flow and 4 speed box. I realise this is about as basic as Westfield specs go, but are they any good? It's running twin carbs and appears to have been well looked after, but how much of a problem is the lack of a 5th ratio? I've only driven one '7 (a 1300 Locost) and that was quite a while back, so not really sure what to expect in terms of performance etc.
It'll be great. I had one like this for a while and the only possible thing I could criticise would be the lack of overtaking ability once up to motorway speeds but chances are it won't spoil the fun. Lack of a 5th gear isn't a problem at all unless you're ploughing up and down motorways but you probably won't be I imagine.What Sam said for things to look for plus check the cooling system works well even when sat still and it isn't chucking water out... the cooling systems on westfield with xflows seem to generate loads of questions on the wscc site and mine was no exception until I sorted it out.
Check that your hand comfortably misses your knee while turning the steering wheel. Space in the narrow body is more restricted than in the wide. This is the only reason I sold mine and later bought a widebody.
Sounds encouraging. I'm only about 5'10 and average build, so I suspect a narrow bodied example will be fine.
The thing is, if this car is as good as it's made out to be and goes for anything like a decent price it'll probably be out of my budget, but it's worth a look....
Would probably do an annual pilgrimage back home for the Exeter kit car show (about 200 miles) but apart from that the furthest I'd take it would probably be Brands Hatch or Rockingham
Besides, I have a worrying tendency to cruise somewhat faster than the law allows in my nice comfy saloon, my 'nil points' would probably last a bit longer if 25% of my trips were done in something I couldn't bare to take above 80!
The thing is, if this car is as good as it's made out to be and goes for anything like a decent price it'll probably be out of my budget, but it's worth a look....
Would probably do an annual pilgrimage back home for the Exeter kit car show (about 200 miles) but apart from that the furthest I'd take it would probably be Brands Hatch or Rockingham
Besides, I have a worrying tendency to cruise somewhat faster than the law allows in my nice comfy saloon, my 'nil points' would probably last a bit longer if 25% of my trips were done in something I couldn't bare to take above 80!Chris71 said:
Sounds encouraging. I'm only about 5'10 and average build, so I suspect a narrow bodied example will be fine.
The only other downside to a narrow is that the market for selling is smaller than a wide simply because many people simply won't be able to get in it. I had a few people come and see mine and some couldn't get in and one guy nearly bought it by default as he almost couldn't get out. Chris71 said:
Would probably do an annual pilgrimage back home for the Exeter kit car show (about 200 miles) but apart from that the furthest I'd take it would probably be Brands Hatch or Rockingham Besides, I have a worrying tendency to cruise somewhat faster than the law allows in my nice comfy saloon, my 'nil points' would probably last a bit longer if 25% of my trips were done in something I couldn't bare to take above 80!
You'll be fine, it would just get a bit wearing doing a daily commute without fifth although I did it every now and again. The windscreen and side doors were more annoying than the engine noise for me. I found that the buffeting from the screen without the side doors was a real pain but having the doors on was not as good an 'experience' if you know what I mean. You can get defelectors that bolt on the side of the screen which are supposed to help but my second car didn't have a screen or doors or any kind of weather gear and I wore my bike lid with earplugs - much much better imo. Besides, I have a worrying tendency to cruise somewhat faster than the law allows in my nice comfy saloon, my 'nil points' would probably last a bit longer if 25% of my trips were done in something I couldn't bare to take above 80!dern said:
The windscreen and side doors were more annoying than the engine noise for me. I found that the buffeting from the screen without the side doors was a real pain but having the doors on was not as good an 'experience' if you know what I mean. You can get defelectors that bolt on the side of the screen which are supposed to help but my second car didn't have a screen or doors or any kind of weather gear and I wore my bike lid with earplugs - much much better imo.
I'd agree with that - on a long run the buffeting deafened you to the point where your ears rang when you got out at the other end (and probably contributed to the fact that I'm now a little hard of hearing) and the sidescreens reduce visibility and elbow room. I ran mine as my only car, all year round, and the other downside to the windscreen in those circumstances was that the water would whip round onto the inside face when it rained, where you didn't have wipers to clear it. The hood was next to hopeless, due to the noise, reduced visibility and fogging up. No windscreen+full face helmet is definitely the way to go if you plan on doing big mileages in adverse weather, but a screen is fine if you're just using it as a weekend toy.Dern's comment on steering wheel clearance reminded me about the gearlever, too - they can bring your knuckles very close to the dashboard, depending on the precise installation of the 4-speed, so check you are comfortable with that, too.
Ok, just got back......
I'm in 2 minds as I loved the car and it looks likely to sell for not a lot. There again I think there are reasons for this.
It seemed to be leaking oil from the cam cover gasket. There was a rather dodgy homemade gearbox extension that was best described as a challenge. There was some oil underneath at the back, but apparently it had recently lunched it's previous gearbox and the owner thought this was left over from that. It wouldn't cold idle and didn't pull as well as I expected (didn't feel like it would keep up with the MX5 I've just sold to fund it, which doesn't seem right) On top of that the gel coat was rather faded on the bonnet and had two big 'star' cracks. Minor surface rust on the chassis rails under the tank. The brakes took a big shove, but I get the impression this is fairly normal? (it's had recent master cylinder and just passed an MOT)
On the other hand, I absolutely loved it - it looked, sounded and err, even smelt totally right and driving it had all the sensations that were missing from the rather sanitised Mazda.
The price is very low indeed (currently running at £2,650) which does make me sorely tempted. Sensibly, I should leave this, save a little extra cash and come back when I have enough money for a pristine example. There again common sense was never a strong point.
I'm in 2 minds as I loved the car and it looks likely to sell for not a lot. There again I think there are reasons for this.
It seemed to be leaking oil from the cam cover gasket. There was a rather dodgy homemade gearbox extension that was best described as a challenge. There was some oil underneath at the back, but apparently it had recently lunched it's previous gearbox and the owner thought this was left over from that. It wouldn't cold idle and didn't pull as well as I expected (didn't feel like it would keep up with the MX5 I've just sold to fund it, which doesn't seem right) On top of that the gel coat was rather faded on the bonnet and had two big 'star' cracks. Minor surface rust on the chassis rails under the tank. The brakes took a big shove, but I get the impression this is fairly normal? (it's had recent master cylinder and just passed an MOT)
On the other hand, I absolutely loved it - it looked, sounded and err, even smelt totally right and driving it had all the sensations that were missing from the rather sanitised Mazda.
The price is very low indeed (currently running at £2,650) which does make me sorely tempted. Sensibly, I should leave this, save a little extra cash and come back when I have enough money for a pristine example. There again common sense was never a strong point.
Chris71 said:
It seemed to be leaking oil from the cam cover gasket.
Not a serious problem. A new gasket will cost next to nothing. A new alloy cam cover won't cost you much more.Chris71 said:
There was a rather dodgy homemade gearbox extension that was best described as a challenge. There was some oil underneath at the back, but apparently it had recently lunched it's previous gearbox and the owner thought this was left over from that.
Ford 4 speed boxes are relatively cheap and easy to rebuild or replace, but if the gearshift quality is ok and it's not making horrible noises, an oil leak is probably no worse than a new oil seal anyway (engine/box out job to replace, but cost measured in pence if you can do the work yourself). Oil will run straight out if you remove the propshaft, though, so spillage from a gearbox change is believable. Can the owner provide any other evidence of the swap though? (eg. receipt for replacement gearbox?). Chris71 said:
It wouldn't cold idle and didn't pull as well as I expected (didn't feel like it would keep up with the MX5 I've just sold to fund it, which doesn't seem right)
Were the 'chokes' (cold enrichment devices, more correctly) connected? It is common - normal, even - not to bother connecting these on Webers; they have a reputation for giving more trouble than they are worth and in any case there's a tradition of macho 'real men don't need chokes' attitude with twin DCOE's - standard practice is to prime the carbs by giving 2 or 3 pumps on the accelerator pedal before cranking the engine when cold, then blipping the throttle until it will hold idle (usually only for maybe 30 seconds or so unless it's really cold). It's part of the 'Weber Experience'.
Power depends on the spec of the engine, but if someone has just bolted a pair of Webers on to a Crossflow with a fast road camshaft, don't expect more than about 100bhp, so it ought to be brisk but not pant-wetting. If you were 2-up on the test drive, the power:weight will probably not have been far off your Mazda. So long as it is pulling evenly and relatively smoothly through the rev range, with no spitting back or flat spots, it's ok... you can tune for more power at a later date. Don't expect too much at the extreme budget end of the market!
Chris71 said:
On top of that the gel coat was rather faded on the bonnet and had two big 'star' cracks. Minor surface rust on the chassis rails under the tank.
Sounds about what you'd expect for a 17-year old kit car with a gelcoat finish. Only you can decide whether the price was reasonable for the condition, though. If it's only the two big star cracks, then that's pretty good going. You could grind them out, but that would be a re-spray, or you could cheat and cover them with stickers, depending on position (racing number roundels or bonnet stripes can work wonders, if correctly placed ). What colour was it? Red always fades quite badly. Other colours might be restorable by cutting back with T-cut or similar and/or using colour restoring polishes.Chris71 said:
The brakes took a big shove, but I get the impression this is fairly normal? (it's had recent master cylinder and just passed an MOT)
Depends how big a shove... the brakes are unservoed, so if you are used to servo brakes, particularly on modern cars where they tend to be very light indeed, then yes, the brakes will feel pretty dead and heavy at first. You get used to it, though. Chris71 said:
The price is very low indeed (currently running at £2,650)...
That's very cheap for a Westfield, and the things you have mentioned are unlikely to cost much if you are willing to get your hands dirty. So long as it is pulling smoothly (don't worry about power or cold starting, so long as the engine is smooth and tractable once warm) and you are happy that the chassis is sound, I can't see you making a loss on it and it can be fettled over time for pennies. Personally, I'd be sorely tempted at that sort of price...
Doh! You're seriously testing my will-power with those observations. I agree, it sounds like good value, but that's based on the price. I think you'd need to repaint the chasis, possibly respray the body (it was quite badly faded) and the stars were big cracks - we're talking the 6" across, not a little blister and get the carbs set up properly. True, uit's not a lot of work for the money (assuming it's as straightforward as that and there's nothing I've missed) but it's still quite a lot of work for someone who doesn't have any proper workshop facilities.
I loved the looks, feel and general driving experience of the car, but it felt primitive - no bad thing in itself - I'm just not convinced a Sylva Leader or even a well developed Dutton Phaeton would be that far behind. Plus, by the time I've got the deposit on a garage, paid for the insurance and given it some tax I'll be stretching my budget even if it only cost £2,750 to buy. I think I'm better off waiting a little while and if I don't pick up something like this,
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&am...
before I've saved enough cash to look at the mainstream of Westfields then that's exaclty what I'll do.
So, so tempted by that car, but I've bought the first example I've seen of cars before and it's not worked out well. I may well end up regretting this (I certainly am now) but I think I'll have to conclude that was the right type of car, but the wrong example.
I loved the looks, feel and general driving experience of the car, but it felt primitive - no bad thing in itself - I'm just not convinced a Sylva Leader or even a well developed Dutton Phaeton would be that far behind. Plus, by the time I've got the deposit on a garage, paid for the insurance and given it some tax I'll be stretching my budget even if it only cost £2,750 to buy. I think I'm better off waiting a little while and if I don't pick up something like this,
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&am...
before I've saved enough cash to look at the mainstream of Westfields then that's exaclty what I'll do.
So, so tempted by that car, but I've bought the first example I've seen of cars before and it's not worked out well. I may well end up regretting this (I certainly am now) but I think I'll have to conclude that was the right type of car, but the wrong example.
Chris71 said:
Doh! You're seriously testing my will-power with those observations. I agree, it sounds like good value, but that's based on the price. I think you'd need to repaint the chasis, possibly respray the body (it was quite badly faded) and the stars were big cracks - we're talking the 6" across, not a little blister and get the carbs set up properly. True, uit's not a lot of work for the money (assuming it's as straightforward as that and there's nothing I've missed) but it's still quite a lot of work for someone who doesn't have any proper workshop facilities.
I loved the looks, feel and general driving experience of the car, but it felt primitive - no bad thing in itself - I'm just not convinced a Sylva Leader or even a well developed Dutton Phaeton would be that far behind. Plus, by the time I've got the deposit on a garage, paid for the insurance and given it some tax I'll be stretching my budget even if it only cost £2,750 to buy.
I think that your budget is insufficient to get a westfield that doesn't require some restoration.I loved the looks, feel and general driving experience of the car, but it felt primitive - no bad thing in itself - I'm just not convinced a Sylva Leader or even a well developed Dutton Phaeton would be that far behind. Plus, by the time I've got the deposit on a garage, paid for the insurance and given it some tax I'll be stretching my budget even if it only cost £2,750 to buy.
If your workshop facilities isn't up to the tasks detailed then I'd be surprised if they're sufficient to run one to be honest. These cars are rarely park and forget affairs and frequently need some tinkering and definitely need frequent checking that stuff hasn't come undone and so on.
My point entirely. By the close of the autumn I can comfortably double that and I think I would be better off looking then.
Workshop wise, maybe I'm being naive, but I wouldn't immagine you need to confront major (engine-out) jobs very often? Back home I've got access to engine cranes, pillar drills, lathes, milling machines, welding gear etc. but up here I'm afraid it's the usual lockup garage and a few tools. They should be enough to cure occasional wiring glitches and carry out servicing. For anything more dramatic I could take the car back to Devon for a bit, but obviously not on a regular basis.
Workshop wise, maybe I'm being naive, but I wouldn't immagine you need to confront major (engine-out) jobs very often? Back home I've got access to engine cranes, pillar drills, lathes, milling machines, welding gear etc. but up here I'm afraid it's the usual lockup garage and a few tools. They should be enough to cure occasional wiring glitches and carry out servicing. For anything more dramatic I could take the car back to Devon for a bit, but obviously not on a regular basis.
Chris71 said:
My point entirely. By the close of the autumn I can comfortably double that and I think I would be better off looking then.
The number of cars for sale will be less then but the prices will be keener. I put a wanted ad up on PH and got offered cars for substantially less than they were being offered for. I eventually bought a v8 car for 8500 and sold it in summer for 10000. It's not a bad strategy if you don't mind kneeling in puddles while looking at cars Chris71 said:
Workshop wise, maybe I'm being naive, but I wouldn't immagine you need to confront major (engine-out) jobs very often? Back home I've got access to engine cranes, pillar drills, lathes, milling machines, welding gear etc. but up here I'm afraid it's the usual lockup garage and a few tools. They should be enough to cure occasional wiring glitches and carry out servicing. For anything more dramatic I could take the car back to Devon for a bit, but obviously not on a regular basis.
You should be fine then.In most respects I was very impressed with the basic design. Pushed all the right buttons
One of the other things in my mind is I'd like to see how far behind the less fashionable (budget) kits really are. I know there are some very nasty ones going round, but if we take the Phaeton as an example, an early one has 5 link rear suspension just like a '7 (so not only does it handle better than the later cart spring cars it sits at a sensible height, avoding the off roader look!) it may well have something like a Fiat twin cam transplanted into it and there are a reasonable number around which have been re-trimmed, re-sprayed and re-wired. The only fundamental problem I can see remaining is the weight and I wonder how much difference there really is if it's one of the more focused series 1 cars. In that condition it would still struggle to fetch half the price of a basic westfield in good condtion.
Likewise, the Leader. These are a proper track orientated car, closely related to the Strikers and Furys. Their chassis engineering should be on a par with the original Caterfields, the only downside being a heavier body and questionable styling. Again, whilst there are some rough ones around (for litterally hundreds of pounds rather than thousands) a few grand buys you a very nice one and I'd be interested to see how that compares to a poverty spec Westfield. I suspect they're not as different as some owners would like to think
But the Westie certainly left a big impression. If the premium you pay for a Westfield/Caterham turns out to be justified I'll just have to keep saving.
One of the other things in my mind is I'd like to see how far behind the less fashionable (budget) kits really are. I know there are some very nasty ones going round, but if we take the Phaeton as an example, an early one has 5 link rear suspension just like a '7 (so not only does it handle better than the later cart spring cars it sits at a sensible height, avoding the off roader look!) it may well have something like a Fiat twin cam transplanted into it and there are a reasonable number around which have been re-trimmed, re-sprayed and re-wired. The only fundamental problem I can see remaining is the weight and I wonder how much difference there really is if it's one of the more focused series 1 cars. In that condition it would still struggle to fetch half the price of a basic westfield in good condtion.
Likewise, the Leader. These are a proper track orientated car, closely related to the Strikers and Furys. Their chassis engineering should be on a par with the original Caterfields, the only downside being a heavier body and questionable styling. Again, whilst there are some rough ones around (for litterally hundreds of pounds rather than thousands) a few grand buys you a very nice one and I'd be interested to see how that compares to a poverty spec Westfield. I suspect they're not as different as some owners would like to think
But the Westie certainly left a big impression. If the premium you pay for a Westfield/Caterham turns out to be justified I'll just have to keep saving.
Chris71 said:
Their chassis engineering should be on a par with the original Caterfields
My advice would be to delete that before sam sees it.You'll enjoy driving any of these things. Get one on a track and you'll have a whale of a time and you'll also fine-tune exactly what you what out of a car and then you can buy one or modify what you have to match your requirements. All good fun.
dern said:
Chris71 said:
Their chassis engineering should be on a par with the original Caterfields
My advice would be to delete that before sam sees it.
Sam - a quick glance at your profile shows you have a Sylva Mk4 as well as having previously owned a Westfield? Is it safe to assume Jeremy Philips basic designs are a fairly good match for the Westfield equivilant?
Chris71 said:
dern said:
Chris71 said:
Their chassis engineering should be on a par with the original Caterfields
My advice would be to delete that before sam sees it.Sam - a quick glance at your profile shows you have a Sylva Mk4 as well as having previously owned a Westfield? Is it safe to assume Jeremy Philips basic designs are a fairly good match for the Westfield equivilant?
Yes, I've still got the Sylva (might be for sale, soon, but sadly beyond your budget) and have owned Westfield and Caterham, along with having driven many other examples of 'Seven' type cars.
The Leader is a pretty sound design, but it's not quite up to the standards of Westfield and certainly below that of Caterham; it's a little on the heavy side and was one of Jeremy Philips' earlier designs, so it's probably fair to say that he was still on a learning curve. I'd still rate it well above the likes of Dutton, Robin Hood, Locost and Locust in terms of design competence, but you've also got to factor in that they are now quite old cars, so finding one that was not only well built but has been well maintained since is becoming difficult.
The Sylva Strikers are not just a match for the equivalent Westfield - they are significantly better, for equivalent specification. There's nothing wrong with any of Jeremy Philips' basic designs, though. Tony Southgate (designer of the Le Mans winning Jaguars and therefore a man who can probably be assumed to know competent design when he sees it) was sufficiently impressed to buy a Phoenix as a weekend toy ...but the Striker/Phoenix was a generation more advanced than the Leader.
Chris Smith was well aware of the flaws in the Westfield SE's design (trailing arms too short and front geometry compromised by the need to use Ford Cortina uprights) and has admitted as much in print, but there were good reasons of economy why he chose to accept those compromises and the SE works just fine in practice.
I'd still be sorely tempted by the Westfield at that price, if I were you, though.
Without having seen the car, it sounds as though a tin of Smoothrite and a couple of hours with a wire brush would be enough to sort the chassis. Size of spider cracks isn't a big issue since the technique for fixing them is a bit labour intensive in any case, so a few square inches more grinding out, filling and smoothing doesn't make a huge amount of difference. You might find that a new bonnet isn't as costly as you think, though, and might be worth it in terms of time and effort.
It sounds like the sort of car that can be used as it is but that a little time and TLC and very little money would see a decent profit when you came to sell it (going rate for a tidy Westfield of that spec. would be £3.5-£4K), whereas a really good Dutton/Leader might cost the same to buy, but wont be worth any more no matter what you do to it?
Faded gel-coat is the only big negative, since it will probably need a re-spray if you can't cut it back and polish it out; what colour is it??
... but you're right; as a 'fun' road car, a Leader or well developed Dutton wouldn't be too far behind. There's only so much you can do with a live axle in a car that light, for road use, since the high unsprung weight of the axle will always make its presence felt, no matter how good the rest of the design.
Sam_68 said:
Don't take any notice of Dern... I've been fairly scathing of Locosts in the past, so the Locost Chip-on-Shoulder Brigade have me marked down as a 'Caterham Owning Bastard' and a 'chequebook engineer' who hates all budget kit cars.
That simply isn't true sam. I do not have you down as any of these things. I just have you down as a prat because your style of discussing these things is petty and sarcastic rather than interesting and engaging. This isn't supposed to be me taking advantage of an opportunity to insult but simply correcting your misrepresentation of my views (again). I'm going to assume that it's not deliberate and I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.Regards.
Edited by dern on Thursday 16th August 10:13
The Westfield got sniped, last minute (last 30 seconds actually!) for £3,300. I'd given up before that, but personally that would have been too close to mainstream Westfield territory to shell out for a car with unknown problems. He said it was rather twitchy (didn't drive it hard enough to confirm, based on my insurance!) which doesn't sound '7 like and the gearbox was almost impossible to operate due to his home made extension. May well be fine once the original selector mechanism had been put back, but I only had about 12 hours to think about it and decided I wasn't that brave. The medicore performance was probably due to set up, but could have been losing compression due to a warped block or anything. The oil underneath was probably left over from the old gearbox, but could have been new etc etc. I may well see a load of higher priced examples with the same problems and live to regret it, but atleast I've set a benchmark now. I'm in no great hurry and the longer I look, the more my budget grows.
Don't suppose you know how much heavier the Leader is than say an (open wheeled) striker or westfield? Speaking of westfield - what sort of effect do the problems with the SE's geomtery have on it's handling? This is an area where the Leader seems to do very well - never heard a bad thing about them handling wise and a guy I spoke to who'd raced one along with a Striker and a Mallock of some description, said that the Leader was the most fun and best balanced, despite being considerably slower than the others.
The price difference is even more extreme than that. The most expensive Leader I've seen was £2,750 and the only Phaetons I've seen advertised at that sort of price are V8 track cars (the 750MC class winning one sold on here for not much over £3k) Whilst I don't expect them to be as good as a £5k Westfield, I would expect a £2500 Leader to better than 'half the car'. Apart from where the looks are concerned
Finally (don't worry, I will shut up in a sec) I notice Caterhams are nearly twice the price again. It seems you have to bring £8k to the table to join the Caterham club, is this price increase justified? When I built my Locost, we had an early Caterham and a Westfield chassis next to it in the workshop and you could barely tell the difference. Caterham, being rather better at welding than me used a few more circular section tubes (as oppsoed to RHS) but than appeared to be about the extent of it.
Don't suppose you know how much heavier the Leader is than say an (open wheeled) striker or westfield? Speaking of westfield - what sort of effect do the problems with the SE's geomtery have on it's handling? This is an area where the Leader seems to do very well - never heard a bad thing about them handling wise and a guy I spoke to who'd raced one along with a Striker and a Mallock of some description, said that the Leader was the most fun and best balanced, despite being considerably slower than the others.
The price difference is even more extreme than that. The most expensive Leader I've seen was £2,750 and the only Phaetons I've seen advertised at that sort of price are V8 track cars (the 750MC class winning one sold on here for not much over £3k) Whilst I don't expect them to be as good as a £5k Westfield, I would expect a £2500 Leader to better than 'half the car'. Apart from where the looks are concerned
Finally (don't worry, I will shut up in a sec
) I notice Caterhams are nearly twice the price again. It seems you have to bring £8k to the table to join the Caterham club, is this price increase justified? When I built my Locost, we had an early Caterham and a Westfield chassis next to it in the workshop and you could barely tell the difference. Caterham, being rather better at welding than me used a few more circular section tubes (as oppsoed to RHS) but than appeared to be about the extent of it.dern said:
Sam_68 said:
Don't take any notice of Dern... I've been fairly scathing of Locosts in the past, so the Locost Chip-on-Shoulder Brigade have me marked down as a 'Caterham Owning Bastard' and a 'chequebook engineer' who hates all budget kit cars.
That simply isn't true sam. I do not have you down as any of these things. I just have you down as a prat because your style of discussing these things is petty and sarcastic rather than interesting and engaging. This isn't supposed to be me taking advantage of an opportunity to insult but simply correcting your misrepresentation of my views (again). I'm going to assume that it's not deliberate and I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.Someone - who shall remain nameless, but a regular poster on this forum - got upset about the technical criticism of the Lowcost, so posted a message on the Lowcost forums trying to round up all his 'mates' to come over for a rumble.
Hence it devolved into puerile name calling (see some of Dern's later posts), but in between there was some interesting technical discussion which might interest the OP on this thread... in particular, the technical differences between Caterhams, Westfields and Lowcosts were discussed in some detail.
I haven't gone in for name calling since I was at primary school, so I won't respond to Dern's opinion of me as being a prat, but suffice it to say that the feeling is mutual.
Lets try to keep to technical opinions and discussion rather than personal spats, shall we, Dern?
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