Schwedenkreuz - The Tree Hugger's Line

[Penguinracer]

This very shakey amateurish video is a salutary lesson in how quickly & easily things can come unravelled at the 'Ring. No men or machines were harmed in the making of this dodgy wee clip! Please excuse the poor camera work - surreptiously hand holding a camera on lap doesn't make for David Lean quality! I've recently posted this video in response to jj996's thread about his 8:10 lap. I've only been to the 'Ring once (Circuit Days Oct'06) - with my brother in his 240 bhp (GTT/Hartge)Cooper S. Lacking an effortless 500- 600 bhp we had to work hard to use all the power & carry as much corner speed as we dared.
The Mini was a frenetic drive - Quaife diff, l/w flywheel, rose-jointed upper & lower control arms, rose-jointed drop links, PSS9, Eibach front bar, Alta rear bar, camberplates,powerflex bushes, Tarox 10-pots & 18" OZ Superleggaras. Unfortunately the lap we videoed (borrowed camera) my brother lost it at Schwedenkreuz, we went down the grass on the inside of the corner 90 degrees to the track, stayed off the armco,the rear tyres regained contact with the tarmac, got the thing straightened out near the entry to Aremberg & carried on. Albeit with a little more caution & some mud in the tyres! Everyone told us how lucky we were - not a scratch on man nor machine. I've subsequently analysed the video & despite what other people have concluded from the video he didn't lose it by taking the inside kerb, I think he took the kerb AFTER he lost it. Freeze frame suggests the tyre squealing begins before the car takes any kerb.
He thinks he might have been changing into fifth over the hump & that unsettled the car? The mini is now with him in NZ & I'm going to develop my 951 for a bit of weekend fun. Anyway - it was a close thing!
Here's our poorly filmed lap:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-590253949...

[Nurburgsingh]

linky-no-worky

[Penguinracer]

It's on the "Circuit Days" site (I have no association other than being a customer on that one occasion, but I can recommend them) at:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-590253949...

If that link isn't working navigate to:
http://www.circuit-days.co.uk/content.php?page_id=...

and under "Nurburgring Videos" select "Mini Cooper S Nurburgring 700 October."

Sorry about the link, Youtube would have been better.

[jvr]

There is a video of a MR2 i think at the same corner touching his brakes and completley losing it on you tube.I think he was doing over a ton so maybe your mini maybe have lifted slightly at the same point?

[handpaper]

As of this year, there isn't a kerb at all on the inside of Schwedenkreuz - it's just red and white paint on the tarmac. The raised kerb was removed because it would have you off the track and in the armco on the right if you clipped it.
I've just watched the video, and it looks like the car was steered onto the grass; it's also moving quite slowly, which suggests your friend misread the corner, thinking it was tighter than it is.

And 240 bhp? Luxury!
Here's me this June, 130 bhp and a cheap lowering kit

[Penguinracer]

It's an odd thing - he's actually a pretty good driver & this sort of thing is very uncharacteristic of him - I've run the video frame by frame & I thought the screeching of the tyres started sometime before reaching the kerb, suggesting he may have lost the tail perhaps by lifting. He would have been in fifth at that point so I doubt he was changing up from fourth. This would have been around the three figure range - too close for confort. If you listen carefully as we slide down the grass two metres off the armco he's apologising to me! The other "curve" for which I have particular respect is the depression & left at the bottom of Fuchsrohre.In a stiffly sprung car you can really feel the "Gs" through there & the consequences of losing it don't bear thinking about. A bit like Schwedenkreuze, the bottom of Foxhole is barely a corner yet it is a scary highspeed directional change.I take your point about power being a luxury - jj996 in his 580 bhp 996 made it seem so relaxed & effortless. By comparison you drive a lower powered car near its limits in all respects & its exhausting treading that very fine line between being near the limits of adhesion or analysing the situation from your hospital bed. At the 'Ring I think with a high-powered car you can get that speed "hit" without taking such big risks - you can be a bit more "point & squirt." I think jockeying a small low powered car hard teaches you a lot about driving though. Oh...but to have 600 bhp!

[bad_roo]

That is a really strange incident. From the video I can't detect a sudden lift off or downchange. The only thing I can attribute it to is that he comfort braked when he realised he was off line (he committed to the corner very narrowly) and that the car got squirrelly under braking. I noticed that on the approach to several corners he gets sucked into the centre of the track before engaging a proper turn in.

I agree with the previous poster that the car was actually steered off the track maybe in response to it getting frisky under brakes.

Edited by bad_roo on Friday 17th August 10:26

Edited by bad_roo on Friday 17th August 10:32

[Penguinracer]

Asking him about it shortly after the incident he's a bit unsure about what happened. His first explanation was that he thought that the bike which he had overtaken at Flugplatz had come up on him & was just outside him on the entry to Schwedenkreuz, so he took a tighter entry to give the biker space. That biker didn't actually pass us until after we'd rejoined the track & were exiting Aremberg at the top of the Fuchsrohre "straight" so in fact he must have been quite some way back. The crazy thing is that we're ruminating about a "close shave" but it could quite easily have been something much more serious.It's a fine line between the two. An experienced 'Ringer drove the car & commented that it's certainly no longer a road car & turns in before you even think about & that the back steps out but then it just grips & sits there. He then took the car through Schwedenkreuz in fifth before "loop changing" into third for Aremberg. I think the comfort brake theory is highly plausible - on that corner with a stiffly sprung, oversteery car with a forward brake bias it wouldn't take much to unsettle it over one of the humps.

[Mr Teflon]

Penguinracer said:

An experienced 'Ringer drove the car & commented that it's certainly no longer a road car & turns in before you even think about & that the back steps out but then it just grips & sits there. He then took the car through Schwedenkreuz in fifth before "loop changing" into third for Aremberg.

I remember it well Especially looking back at you from the black Evo !!!

Edited by Mr Teflon on Saturday 24th November 18:06

[Guillotine]

you guys are nuts. losing the back like that, then carrying on round and still pushing!!?

wot if it had been a slow puncture? broken loose arb, hub...wheel?

you could have come a real cropper and worse...taken someone else out.

lucky...very lucky.

just looks like your mate turned in too hard and lost the back when light at the crest.
He held it well tho, 'bin some serious paint damage there as some have said.

andy

[EDLT]

Their must have been some damage to the seats... or did it wash off?

[Funk]

I've just watched it and linked a mate (who's an experienced 'ringer) and he immediately reckoned on a lift just before the crest and then amazement that he continued the lap rather than either checking it visually before rejoining or indeed getting off at Adenau to check for damage.

[MannyA]

Another factor that needs to be considered is the fact that the suspension was heavily modified, most modern road cars er on the side of caution and have quite compliant set ups that give plenty of warning of an impending spin, I reckon the modifications listed above would turn a short wheel base car like a mini into a right twitchy bastid.

Mini is a great handling car, seems a bit pointless to me to throw away millions of £££ of development by BMW and start messing with the suspension, would probably work on a smooth track but the ring is a different beast, in reality you need a very balanced and compliant car at the ring, stiff suspension setups just have you bouncing of the bumps.

Thats a serious corner that needs to be treated with respect, he was very lucky, a spin there usually results in an intimate encounter with the armco.

[graememac]

really considerate of you to drive back onto the track probably dragging dirt with you at breaking/turning in point

[MannyA]

graememac said:

really considerate of you to drive back onto the track probably dragging dirt with you at breaking/turning in point

To be honest I think he would have been daft to get out of his car and inspect it at such a quick corner!

Its not like there is anywhere to pull over at the ring, as long as he was happy that he wasnt leaking fluids and the car was OK, dont really see the problem myself.

[graememac]

MannyA said:

graememac said:

really considerate of you to drive back onto the track probably dragging dirt with you at breaking/turning in point

To be honest I think he would have been daft to get out of his car and inspect it at such a quick corner!

Its not like there is anywhere to pull over at the ring, as long as he was happy that he wasnt leaking fluids and the car was OK, dont really see the problem myself.

agreed, but a bit of common sense would have been to drive 10 metres further on and pull back on at the edge of the gravel trap off the racing line. the last thing you want is to turn in and find dirt every where (especially on a bike!)

[Maxx]

Seems he was backing out of the gas over the brow and essentialy coasting, you need at least balanced throttle through there and with a car with this config (and FWD) you need positive accelleration to keep weight over the rear.