RMS Issues - Objective/official information needed

[trickywoo]

I'd be speaking to the chaps at Autofarm for a start.

http://www.autofarm.co.uk/engines/water_cooled

The specalist Porsche mags in WHS always have buying guides and other related engine stories if not in the current publication then back issues.

[Mousem40]

I'd contact Nic Doczi from PCGB. He did a survey for the Boxster register a few years back and they have some nice figures. My previous post also has a brief summary.
It's around a 24% failure rate.

[lightweight]

I had a RMS changed by west london under warentee and they also changed the cluch FOC i just paid for the part circa £200 IIRC.
what is the nature of the dispute?
dont know where you live but i recomend talking to michal at west london he is a great guy and will always go the extra mile for a customer.

best of luck Bo

[130R]

Mousem40 said:

It's around a 24% failure rate.

How much does it cost to fix out of warranty? A 24% failure rate is shocking, so much for German build quality.

[GreigM]

http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic...

[SNDa]

Most of the cost is dependent on labour charges as the gearbox has to be taken off c. 8 hours. the seal itself is not much IIRC £20-30.

SNDa

edited: the memory's going.

Edited by SNDa on Thursday 23 August 11:08

[Fidgits]

lightweight said:

what is the nature of the dispute?

I would guess his RMS has gone, and he doesnt have a warranty - so wants to prove its a manufacturing flaw to try and get the OPC to cover the cost.

[Mousem40]

Fidgits said:

lightweight said:

what is the nature of the dispute?

I would guess his RMS has gone, and he doesnt have a warranty - so wants to prove its a manufacturing flaw to try and get the OPC to cover the cost.

Probably right. I wouldn't hold your breath. This has done the rounds (legal and otherwise) many times and no-one has gotten anywhere. The best PCGB could do was to finally get the RMS included in the warranty.

Why bother incurring potentially large legal costs? It's just a drip and won't contaminate your clutch or anything. Get it done when your clutch needs doing and it will cost you very little.

[sja]

Newcastle OPC did mine free of charge, no warranty. Took into account age of vehicle (3 1/2 years), mileage (29,000), full OPC service history.

They had to do it all again a few months later when they replaced gearbox. Again FOC out of warranty..

[2something]

Also worth bearing in mind some OPCs will pay a percentage of the cost as goodwill depending on the age of the car and the mileage. As we all know OPCs vary WIDELY.

ETA sja kind of beat me to it - darn!

Edited by 2something on Thursday 23 August 11:24

[trickywoo]

Mousem40 said:

It's just a drip and won't contaminate your clutch or anything.

Opened a nice juicy can of worms there as lots of people associate an RMS failure with more serious engine problems down the line.

[lightweight]

That may be tough. Out of warentee goodwill payments usualy depend on age of car, is it serviced by OPC... etc i think a good working relationship with OPC and calm air of disapointment usualy helps.

[Mousem40]

trickywoo said:

Mousem40 said:

It's just a drip and won't contaminate your clutch or anything.

Opened a nice juicy can of worms there as lots of people associate an RMS failure with more serious engine problems down the line.

I understand the argument that was put forward when this all kicked off...for those who aren't aware.....The purpose of the seal is two fold: a) to keep the oil from seeping out of the engine and b) to prevent dirt entering into it (in the case of RMS - clutch dust). If the Main bearing is contaminated it may lead to its detruction as the contamination wears at the bearing mechanism. If the main bearing fails then the engine will have serious problems. If the bearing has play and the crank has a wobble (even by thou of an inch) it may lead to gearbox and/or engine problems. Conversly, if the gearbox has a problem or is not splined into the clutch mechanism correctly (aligned) then it can cause excessive load on the crankshaft and thus lead to Main bearing and/or RMS problems. It was also said to be possible for the engine block to warp or the two block halves to become missailigned due to temperature changes (cooling) or incorrectly tightened bolts. (Porsche released a new set of "blue" bolts)

I also remember a story about a shipment of engines being 'dropped' putting the crank out of alignement with the cradle. The RMS was just the manifestation of this, and was a pre-cursor to engine failure.

But are these all wifes tales? Do we have any evidence at all that an RMS leads to engine failure? I think not. Most of the engine failures were due to slipped liners etc or intermediate shaft failures as the bearings were inadeqate. This problem has dwindled over time with the introduction of the post 2001 and 997 bearing and shaft revisions.

[996TT_STEVO]

I have a 996 Turbo and has had RMS changed again 3/4 weeks ago, this is second in 15/16 months. The first was changed under warranty and because warranty covered it I had no legal right to claim against defect parts (2 years parts covered), if I contributed £1 towards the warranty job I would have been covered.

What gets me, is these seals are always getting updated part numbers, I spoke with someone within Porsche (no names mentioned) and he mentioned the seal has been updated well over a dozen times, so surely this would contribute to a faulty part!

[Adam B]

130R said:

Mousem40 said:

It's around a 24% failure rate.

How much does it cost to fix out of warranty? A 24% failure rate is shocking, so much for German build quality.

about £900 from an OPC on a Boxster so similar on a 911

my 3rd part warranty covered it but West London OPC did not (out of warranty by 6 months but not purchased from them)

[trickywoo]

996TT_STEVO said:

I have a 996 Turbo and has had RMS changed again 3/4 weeks ago, this is second in 15/16 months.

I thought the GT1 based engines were immune to this

[fastfreddy]

trickywoo said:

Mousem40 said:

It's just a drip and won't contaminate your clutch or anything.

Opened a nice juicy can of worms there as lots of people associate an RMS failure with more serious engine problems down the line.

Seems like the OPCs are also making that association. So if you have an engine failure and the records show you had a leaking RMS at some point in the past, they could say that was the cause?

The other way of looking at it is that if it could be proved the RMS problems are due to a design fault, that would mean Porsche are ultimately responsible for any engine failures which could have occurred through a lack of oil, due to their bad design...

[Ballcock]

Bingo Bango said:

They are basically trying to blame an engine failure on low oil level caused by the RMS leaking slightly.

Sorry to hear this , B...
I've heard quite a few cases of warranty companies squirming out of compensation by asserting that the engine blew due to lack of oil. It's a difficult one to prove as obviously the first thing a failed engine is going to do is spew it's oil everywhere. Unfortunately this is the first time I've heard an OPC try this tack.


I think I can remember one case where the owner of the car got an independent engineer to assess the engine to try and decide the cause of failure . The opc most likely have the engine in bits somewhere , so if you can get access to it , this might be a good place to start.

Keep us posted and good luck...

[thegoose]

Ballcock said:

I think I can remember one case where the owner of the car got an independent engineer to assess the engine to try and decide the cause of failure . The opc most likely have the engine in bits somewhere , so if you can get access to it , this might be a good place to start.

Keep us posted and good luck...

Definitely something you need to do. If they have nothing to hide, they should have no problem you having it inspected by an expert (I was going to put "independent expert" but if you instruct them on your own, rather than jointly with the OPC, then it is not independent) with the right credentials. It's your car anyway, so they have to let you see it, even if it is in bits. If an engine has been starved of oil there will be obvious "blue-ing" on the bearings/shells where due to excess heat. Ensure photos are taken too. The report shouldn't cost more than £100 - £200 and (provided it says what you need/expect) will be an extremely difficult thing for them to dispute.

[The Griffalo]

The sticky at the top provides lots of good RMS info. If it was down to oil starvation one of two things must have happened. The dash readout would have shown a low level (and flashed at one bar) or the oil pressure light would have come on. Does anyone know if the ECU stores pressure events? Certainly worth asking

What was the gauge reading before the failure?