Are K series engines really 'that' bad?

[Justin S]

Toying with building a Marlin kitcar and use all the donor for it,such as a Rover Vi with the VVC engine.With the issues of headgaskets etc,is it not possible to freshen it up a bit before I throw it in? I want to get the car going and SVA'd etc and then use it for a while with the thought of bigger power from a 1.8t Golf engine,but finances and registering it make it harder to do it first time round.

[K13 WJD]

a year ago my mrs wanted a MG ZR.....so, i found a 35000 mile 04 plate 105+ - a 1400 16v k series....

Was a great little car, until, one day, when i was doing 40mph on a backroad, i noticed the temp guage through the roof.......Pulled up. head gasket. DOH
so, i stripped it, and with a guage, decided that both the head and the block needed a skim......engine out. got it all fixed, got a decent gasket, along with some decent bolts, and hey presto........i sold it very shortly after that.

On the other hand i know people that have had k series for YEARS and never had a problem.

personally id c20XE it. cheap engine, big power and torque, and easy tuning.

Edited by K13 WJD on Friday 24th August 20:40

[That Daddy]

Yes the K is shite,i dont care what the Elise guys say,my workshop as seen loads of these(all with oil bleeding into the cooling system)pampered,Full service history or otherwise,i cannot think of an engine that as more headgasket woes than this unit,it as major design flaw.i am right in the firing line so i feel i can comment on this matter without predjudiceRover got design ideas with this lump way ahead of there station and messed up big style

[diycerb]

Hi

This is what happens to K series when things go really wrong.



Apparently failure on a motorway. Anyway we replaced the engine with a used one, all was well for 3 month then for no apparent reason a conrod got scared of the dark and decided to exit through the block!!! Owner then decided to by a Ford.

Cheers,
Rich.

[SuPaSpArK]

Very problematic...The proceedure for tightening the head bolts is unbelievable! I'd stay well clear.

[That Daddy]

diycerb said:

Hi

This is what happens to K series when things go really wrong.



Apparently failure on a motorway. Anyway we replaced the engine with a used one, all was well for 3 month then for no apparent reason a conrod got scared of the dark and decided to exit through the block!!! Owner then decided to by a Ford.

Cheers,
Rich.

Just look at how thin those liners are,what a dogyes, those liners fracture and break away too,seen two of this failure,you would have thpought they would have learnt something from Honda but.....sadly not.

[Sam_68]

I've done 25-30K miles in K-series Elises with no problems whatsoever, so the sort of mileages the average kit-car does aren't really a problem. HGF is't the end of the world if you are a competent mechanic, anyway; I wouldn't necessarily let the stories put you off.

I suspect that many of the 'pampered, full service history' type cars are exactly the ones that are run by muppets who don't bother to check their coolant levels (or oil levels, or tyre pressures) on a regular basis - after all, that's what main dealer services are there for, isn't it?

The K-series probably isn't the most reliable engine in the world, but if you want a very lightweight, relatively free-revving engine, it's not a bad choice. If weight isn't so critical, there are better options, though - Toyota or Ford Zetec, for example.

[stevieturbo]

diycerb said:

Hi

This is what happens to K series when things go really wrong.

pic removed..

Apparently failure on a motorway.

Cheers,
Rich.

failure on the motorway ??

What happened...did he hit first gear at 100mph lol.

[That Daddy]

stevieturbo said:

diycerb said:

Hi

This is what happens to K series when things go really wrong.

pic removed..

Apparently failure on a motorway.

Cheers,
Rich.

failure on the motorway ??

What happened...did he hit first gear at 100mph lol.

Yes,must admit Stevie i have seen one like this but thats just the owner driving on in ignorance(most motors will do this as you know)i see one that the pistons had collapsed,he thought he would just drive to the next exit with no coolant"w*nker"and thats not the motors fault,yes it is a smooth free revving motor(light too) its the top end woes that cause the bottom end probs,i cant see the point in using a motor like this in anything worth driving,the chinese could fix this motor if they use bigger headbolts and change the headgasket design,beef up the liner thickness by a few millimetres too(it can be fixed)it should have been done sooner though.

[kenmorton]

Practical Performance Car had a feature on the K series in last months issue. Very informative, pointed out all the common problems but also showed what to look for to get a good one.

[dern]

kenmorton said:

Practical Performance Car had a feature on the K series in last months issue. Very informative, pointed out all the common problems but also showed what to look for to get a good one.

Must have passed this article by but I'll copy this article for you Justin and pop it round at some point.

[Furyous]

dern said:

kenmorton said:

Practical Performance Car had a feature on the K series in last months issue. Very informative, pointed out all the common problems but also showed what to look for to get a good one.

Must have passed this article by but I'll copy this article for you Justin and pop it round at some point.

Any chance of a copy ? Or is it in the current copy? Not bought it this month.

F

[Justin S]

Mark,got it on subscription,so unless Christopher has hidden it to read,it'll be around.

[cymtriks]

IIRC it's all down to two issues-
a batch of dud gaskets
a plastic dowel pin used to secure the head (IIRC this was steel, then plastic for cost, then back to steel again for reliability.

So if you are unfortunate enough to have a duff gasket and a plastic pin....

[That Daddy]

cymtriks said:

IIRC it's all down to two issues-
a batch of dud gaskets
a plastic dowel pin used to secure the head (IIRC this was steel, then plastic for cost, then back to steel again for reliability.

So if you are unfortunate enough to have a duff gasket and a plastic pin....

Cymtriks,thats not correct steel or plastic dowels they fail anyways, the way the head sits on the block is all wrong and it moves around,yes even with the steel dowels fitted(more reliable than the plastic/fibre ones though)the bolts are to long and thin and do not secure the head properly to the block,but its the way the head only sits on the four fire rings on the gasket(the rings that seal the combustion chamber to head) & two thin strips on both outer edges(absolute madness)so it just sits twisting & moving around on every heating up and cooling down cyclerubbish,you have about approx 5% of the total head surface touching the headgasket and the same applies to the block facein fact when the head is secured you can get a feeler gauge beetween the joint until you touch one of the seals or the fire rings,the engine is a plum,really best avoided.

Edited by That Daddy on Sunday 26th August 09:27

[cptsideways]

Add in the fact that the headgasket seals for the water & oil works are made of silicone beading on a steel gasket surface. There is no structure there, just a blob of silicone. Its shit, really shit, every water works failure I have seen has been down to broken silicone, its a right bodge. As soon as the engine gets too hot up goes the pressure the weak seals will break - hey presto.


Shocking bit of design from an engineering point of view IMHO

[wheeljack]

Very clever design that in many aspects at the time was way ahead of the pack, i.e. high specific output, very lightweight, low reciprocating masses, fast warmup, very efficient combustion that could tolerate high egr dilution rates or lean, etc. Unfortunately as good as a design can be from the off, everything needs analysing and developing. To do this properly requires lots of money/resources/people and because of this it suffered that most British of diseases a severe lack of capital investment.

If other car companies had to engineer an engine as impecuniously as the Rover engineers had to they probably would have blown the budget by concept-proof prototype level!

[That Daddy]

Nah,it was just Rover getting waaaaaaay above their station,they should have looked at what the experts were doing(Honda)and been more realistic with the design,i mean they copied Honda,s double wishbone suspension and that was ok.

[GreenV8S]

I get the impression that the original design concept was extremely elegant, but the design was finished off by people who really didn't understand it. For example, the direction of water flow through the heads was apparently changed quite late on, despite warnings of the risks. Similarly, the thermal expansion issues weren't considered properly resulting in warmup issues with those long stretch bolts. Aside from these problems, many of which seem to be self-inflicted, the basic design has an awful lot going for it.

[cymtriks]

That Daddy said:

cymtriks said:

IIRC it's all down to two issues-
a batch of dud gaskets
a plastic dowel pin used to secure the head (IIRC this was steel, then plastic for cost, then back to steel again for reliability.

So if you are unfortunate enough to have a duff gasket and a plastic pin....

Cymtriks,thats not correct steel or plastic dowels they fail anyways, the way the head sits on the block is all wrong and it moves around,yes even with the steel dowels fitted(more reliable than the plastic/fibre ones though)the bolts are to long and thin and do not secure the head properly to the block,but its the way the head only sits on the four fire rings on the gasket(the rings that seal the combustion chamber to head) & two thin strips on both outer edges(absolute madness)so it just sits twisting & moving around on every heating up and cooling down cyclerubbish,you have about approx 5% of the total head surface touching the headgasket and the same applies to the block facein fact when the head is secured you can get a feeler gauge beetween the joint until you touch one of the seals or the fire rings,the engine is a plum,really best avoided.

Edited by That Daddy on Sunday 26th August 09:27

What you describing sounds more like a thermal differential problem between the head and block and/or between everything and the bolts. I'd have thought that gaskets let a tiny bit of movement occur. Even with masses of contact area I'd expect you'd still have the long bolt issues. And even if you ditched these if the head truly "twists" as you put it then you'd need huge bolt loads to stop it as thermal expansion forces are usually very high as the entire volume of heated metal is behind them.

I blame the bolts. I've noticed that nobody (IIRC) has copied the idea!

However I have heard of replacement gaskets and pins being sold that are supposed to improve things which, as you can't get away from the bolts, is all you can fix yourself about the design.