how much bhp to crack a wrx or evo
Discussion
Now before the bollocking begins,the elise/exige will consume all around bends and tracks and thats what it was built for, and yes I agree the money is better spent on driver training (before sworks starts lol!) twas just pondering what would be needed to thrash a 3k subaru or a v70r or a 1.5k pulsar, dont get me wrong I'm not one of them 'off at the lights merchants' was just wondering... christ has it got to the point where it would cost 15k for a honda conversion? and then with a 30 grand car would it have the muscle ?
A couple of mates are into santa pod, whack a 2.0 turbo calibra engine in an astra gte with silly boost, so how would a fettled elise stand upto the challenge?
A couple of mates are into santa pod, whack a 2.0 turbo calibra engine in an astra gte with silly boost, so how would a fettled elise stand upto the challenge?
god you miserable sods, it was just something different to think about ! right then lets go back to the grind! vx220 or elise which is the best ? or will exige wheels fit on my elise or which elise model is best to buy or are s1's as good as s2's.. blah blah blah, twas just something new to keep the hamster wheel rolling and to keep us amused, nothing more nothing less
depends...there arent many standard Scoobies/Eovs that old left around...but lets say an early 220bhp Scoobie etc ...you are gonna need 160bhp+ in an S1 Elise to have a real chance in a straight line....and forget about all the bullshit about Elises being faster in the corners...on the road, in the real world, you have to be a pretty experienced Elise driver to make it count against an avg Scooby/Evo driver ....the thing is with these things is that they have 4WD and electronic aids that allow nearly any numpty to drive them at 90-100% of the limit in relative safety....if you drive at 90-100% of what an Elise can really do on the road, then you either have to be very talented (for when you overstep the mark) or very stupid 
I used to run an RS6 everyday and can tell you now, that in 80-90% of everyday driving situations, in different weathers/conditions, I was faster in that over the same piece of ground than in my Elise...just because of the confindence in instilled in the driver, and the gizmos/4WD that were there to help me ...of course on a track day it would be a different matter
I used to run an RS6 everyday and can tell you now, that in 80-90% of everyday driving situations, in different weathers/conditions, I was faster in that over the same piece of ground than in my Elise...just because of the confindence in instilled in the driver, and the gizmos/4WD that were there to help me ...of course on a track day it would be a different matter
A friend of mine has a EVO (VIII) FQ360+ (over 360bhp and 450Nm/331lb-ft) and I'm quicker in a straight line with my Bemani Exige (~270bhp). Quite a bit quicker from standstill, less, but still quicker in the higher gears.
What helps is the gearing: I get further in each gear thanks to the high reving engine, so while he's changing up to the next gear and losing time, I'm still well within my powerband having a good 1000 rpm before I need to change gear.
The immense amount of torque though will make the EVO feel quicker though.
From magazine test, I'd say a 400bhp EVO (tuned by Carbon Design LTD) is around equivilant. There really isn't that much in it though in real world, despite what the figures suggest.
Be aware though that even a very standard EVO IX with the publicized 280bhp is a VERY quick car. I've also heard that many EVOs make more than the official figure in standard form and they are very easily tunable. When my car was standard, I felt it was most hurt (in a straight line) by the lack of torque and very narrow powerband, with the only advantage being the weight which helps a lot for a quick start - but after that loses quickly out to more torqier cars.
What helps is the gearing: I get further in each gear thanks to the high reving engine, so while he's changing up to the next gear and losing time, I'm still well within my powerband having a good 1000 rpm before I need to change gear.
The immense amount of torque though will make the EVO feel quicker though.
From magazine test, I'd say a 400bhp EVO (tuned by Carbon Design LTD) is around equivilant. There really isn't that much in it though in real world, despite what the figures suggest.
Be aware though that even a very standard EVO IX with the publicized 280bhp is a VERY quick car. I've also heard that many EVOs make more than the official figure in standard form and they are very easily tunable. When my car was standard, I felt it was most hurt (in a straight line) by the lack of torque and very narrow powerband, with the only advantage being the weight which helps a lot for a quick start - but after that loses quickly out to more torqier cars.
Just to add, since you've got a Rover engined Lotus:
I've heard from forum talk that a Honda'd Elise S2 with the standard 220/230bhp is quicker than a (standard) WRX STi or EVO VIII). Then again, a Honda'd Elise S2 isn't far off from what my car is delivering - it has the weight advantage, but I have quite a bit more torque (thanks to the S/C).
Now, take a S/C Honda like Bogie has, and it'd be quite a bit quicker...
I've heard from forum talk that a Honda'd Elise S2 with the standard 220/230bhp is quicker than a (standard) WRX STi or EVO VIII). Then again, a Honda'd Elise S2 isn't far off from what my car is delivering - it has the weight advantage, but I have quite a bit more torque (thanks to the S/C).
Now, take a S/C Honda like Bogie has, and it'd be quite a bit quicker...
"Standard" road cars are getting quicker and quicker, especially the torquey diesels. I've been surprised by a few of late, once on song they are pretty hard to shake off. Getting upto 'song' though is a different matter.
If you want more power then a few grand at DVA will probably see you with a nicely set-up 170-180bhp which I think is more than enough for a K-series.
If you want more power then a few grand at DVA will probably see you with a nicely set-up 170-180bhp which I think is more than enough for a K-series.
bogie said:
....and forget about all the bullshit about Elises being faster in the corners...on the road, in the real world, you have to be a pretty experienced Elise driver to make it count against an avg Scooby/Evo driver ....the thing is with these things is that they have 4WD and electronic aids that allow nearly any numpty to drive them at 90-100% of the limit in relative safety....if you drive at 90-100% of what an Elise can really do on the road, then you either have to be very talented (for when you overstep the mark) or very stupid
Just wanted to requote this bit here, which I think hits it on the nail.I'd even go as far to say that on the road, in the real world, even other (slower) cars can be extremely quick or even quicker on the road as it really all depends on the lunacy of the driver. I also feel that many have less to lose too, which makes them a dangerous encounter on the road - it really isn't worth it.
As to EVOs and Scoobies:
From my observation, I'd say there isn't much in it in the cornering advantage of a Lotus on the road. If I ever was able to play out the cornering strength and the grip of semi-slicks (Toyo R888), it was in very tight corners or round-abouts, where the much higher weight of other cars such as EVOs and Scoobies makes them a lot less agile and as a result slower. Or in corners where there's a lot of weight transition in close left/right corners (more weight unsettles the car with quick weight transistions). In higher speed corners, the difference between a Lotus and other heavier cars gets smaller.
There are too many variables but my last 'run' against a 2yr old Impreza STi which was running a little more than standard (I guessed from the larger exhaust) showed that up to 70mph my 111R was easily a match but after that it pulled away slowly. I agree though that 90% of the time 4WD and loads of electronics make these and lots of other cars almost as quick.
I find that the road is a great lever though. Even with a 111R other Elises seem just as quick as mine although that's probalby got something to do with all the power being past 6200rpm!
I find that the road is a great lever though. Even with a 111R other Elises seem just as quick as mine although that's probalby got something to do with all the power being past 6200rpm!
Phil-CH said:
bogie said:
....and forget about all the bullshit about Elises being faster in the corners...on the road, in the real world, you have to be a pretty experienced Elise driver to make it count against an avg Scooby/Evo driver ....the thing is with these things is that they have 4WD and electronic aids that allow nearly any numpty to drive them at 90-100% of the limit in relative safety....if you drive at 90-100% of what an Elise can really do on the road, then you either have to be very talented (for when you overstep the mark) or very stupid
Just wanted to requote this bit here, which I think hits it on the nail.I'd even go as far to say that on the road, in the real world, even other (slower) cars can be extremely quick or even quicker on the road as it really all depends on the lunacy of the driver. I also feel that many have less to lose too, which makes them a dangerous encounter on the road - it really isn't worth it.
As to EVOs and Scoobies:
From my observation, I'd say there isn't much in it in the cornering advantage of a Lotus on the road. If I ever was able to play out the cornering strength and the grip of semi-slicks (Toyo R888), it was in very tight corners or round-abouts, where the much higher weight of other cars such as EVOs and Scoobies makes them a lot less agile and as a result slower. Or in corners where there's a lot of weight transition in close left/right corners (more weight unsettles the car with quick weight transistions). In higher speed corners, the difference between a Lotus and other heavier cars gets smaller.
Frimley111R said:
Even with a 111R other Elises seem just as quick as mine although that's probalby got something to do with all the power being past 6200rpm!
I noticed that on a run the other day - standard S1s were just as quick pulling away, although they were better drivers with no passenger and the S1 is lighter anyway. You go past fairly easily when 2nd cam kicks in, but you have to get there first. A friend of mine is into Evos (I don't like them at all personally - impressive performance but zero style IMO) and says that the 4WD makes them amazing on corners. If 4WD is so good, why do almost all supercars (excluding lambos, and that is the Audi influence) as well as other sports cars have RWD? You don't see 4WD Enzos or Konigseggs etc. Aren't F1 cars RWD? And Evos etc. are front engined; again almost all supercars etc. are mid-engined - surely the better weight balance makes a difference. I find it hard to believe that Ferrari etc. would be selling RWD, mid-engined cars at that price if infact 4WD and front-engined is better.
Cino said:
If 4WD is so good, why do almost all supercars (excluding lambos, and that is the Audi influence) as well as other sports cars have RWD? You don't see 4WD Enzos or Konigseggs etc. Aren't F1 cars RWD?
First of all, not all "supercars" are really good at cornering as one might suggest. A well setup track focused car (with enough power) will be quicker if not as quick as most Ferraris or supercars on a track. I.e. a well setup Lotus with enough power (perhaps Honda S/C) or a Caterham.The other reason would probably be for tradition sake, and/or simplicity of the drive-train. A 4WD is quite a bit heavier. Drivetrain losses are also higher. Add to that, that RWD is more fun to drive.
Don't underestimate a good 4WD system though: Especially EVOs have gone a long way in developing electronic driving aids to perfect the 4WD system. They are also easier to drive than just abotu all RWD cars.
Cino said:
And Evos etc. are front engined; again almost all supercars etc. are mid-engined - surely the better weight balance makes a difference. I find it hard to believe that Ferrari etc. would be selling RWD, mid-engined cars at that price if infact 4WD and front-engined is better.
Front engined may not be optimal from a weight balance point of view, but it certainly makes it a lot easier to tune the cars, since you don't have to worry about getting enough induction air or cooling air into the engine bay. A mid-engined car will always struggle with this compared to a frond-engined one. This is also a reason why EVO's and other such cars are among the most tunable cars outthere - practically the entire front are huge intercoolers fetching all the fresh/cool air. As a result, there are cars that easily make 700 bhp or more. Skylines, Evos and others.I'm not a fan of front-engined 4WD cars, but the advantages of such a setup are clearly there. If it outweighs the benefit of a well setup mid-engined RWD car is up to what you want the car to do. There's no black & white answer to which is better - each has their strengths in its specific area.
I have driven elises and exiges and owned all sorts of Scoobys. There are not too many un modified scoobys or evos around, if you meet a lower powered standsrd subaru WRX with 220 bhp then a fast 160+ bhp elise or an exige or an R should be faster. Modified WRX or EVO, STI with 300bhp you would struggle against. But you cannot get that infront/behind in the faster car unless there is quite a long straight.
Corners - Its all down to how much bottle you have. I know my subaru (older one so has about 300kgs less weight than the current crop) can get around roundabout at stupid speeds, not far off what a lotus can do, so there would be no gain from a lotus on that one. However, I dare not get anywhere near those speeds on the road as its too scary. The speeds I go around corners in could probably be matched by a teenage nutter in a clio! I dont want to end up in a hedge or wrapped around a tree, I value my life too much!
In a recent event I went to, on the same track in the same conditions a modified supercharged elise (honda-ed) was faster than the modified scoobies etc. Have a look at the ten of the best web site, i think it is totb.com or totb.co.uk. This is what you need to be really quick, light weight and power. You therefore really need 300bhp in your elise.
Corners - Its all down to how much bottle you have. I know my subaru (older one so has about 300kgs less weight than the current crop) can get around roundabout at stupid speeds, not far off what a lotus can do, so there would be no gain from a lotus on that one. However, I dare not get anywhere near those speeds on the road as its too scary. The speeds I go around corners in could probably be matched by a teenage nutter in a clio! I dont want to end up in a hedge or wrapped around a tree, I value my life too much!
In a recent event I went to, on the same track in the same conditions a modified supercharged elise (honda-ed) was faster than the modified scoobies etc. Have a look at the ten of the best web site, i think it is totb.com or totb.co.uk. This is what you need to be really quick, light weight and power. You therefore really need 300bhp in your elise.
ptp170 said:
Just to give you guys the heads up, it's not scooby's or evo's we need to be worried about.
Top Gear are doing an elise (111s?) vs merc sprinter for the new series...rumour has it from my inside man that we don't come out well as elise owners :-S
If they did an F1 car vs. the Merc Sprinter I'd wager that whoever's driving the F1 car will end up with the Merc in his wing-mirrors, lights blazing. Everyone knows that they're the fastest vehicles on the planet.Top Gear are doing an elise (111s?) vs merc sprinter for the new series...rumour has it from my inside man that we don't come out well as elise owners :-S
Gassing Station | Elise/Exige/Europa/340R | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff