Track day kit cars
Discussion
Hi guys just a few quick questions:
Im after getting into track driving and i think a kit car is the best way to go.
Do I build myself or buy one? As i havent been on a track much or built a car before i dont know how wise it is to build my own, but i dont mind having a go! What will i get for around 10k? Any suggestions on a particular make/model? I dont intend to use it off of the track, so no need for a road legal car.
Thanks in advance,
Rich
Im after getting into track driving and i think a kit car is the best way to go.
Do I build myself or buy one? As i havent been on a track much or built a car before i dont know how wise it is to build my own, but i dont mind having a go! What will i get for around 10k? Any suggestions on a particular make/model? I dont intend to use it off of the track, so no need for a road legal car.
Thanks in advance,
Rich
Edited by Varn on Friday 31st August 12:29
Hi Varn,
Kit cars can indeed make very potent - and cost effective - track day cars.
Buying a used one ready built tends to be cheaper as well as quicker than building one yourself, though as with any used car you need to take a good look at what you're buying.
Sounds like something light, agile and basic would suit you best. So that's basically a Seven type car or full-bodied equivalent, maybe with a motorbike engine.
Caterham, Westfield, Dax Rush, Silva/RAW Striker, Silva/Fisher Fury, Silva/SSC Stylus, Ginetta G20 & G27 and MK Indy are all track proven and you should be able to find used examples in your budget.
Probably even be able to find some up for sale at the Donington kit car show in September.
Kit cars can indeed make very potent - and cost effective - track day cars.
Buying a used one ready built tends to be cheaper as well as quicker than building one yourself, though as with any used car you need to take a good look at what you're buying.
Sounds like something light, agile and basic would suit you best. So that's basically a Seven type car or full-bodied equivalent, maybe with a motorbike engine.
Caterham, Westfield, Dax Rush, Silva/RAW Striker, Silva/Fisher Fury, Silva/SSC Stylus, Ginetta G20 & G27 and MK Indy are all track proven and you should be able to find used examples in your budget.
Probably even be able to find some up for sale at the Donington kit car show in September.
Hi Rich
You'll be able to either build or buy something suitable for £10k, so it really depends on where your priorities lie and if you want to build or are just building to get to the end result.
If you want to build then look at the various Lotus Seven clones available such as the MK Indy, MNR Vortx, Raw Striker etc, as well as the enclosed body cars like the Fisher Fury and STM Phoenix which are essentially very similar chassis wise but with enclosed style bodywork. I would normally mention Westfields and Caterhams as well, but you'll struggle to build a Westie and definitelty wont build a Caterham if you're on a strict £10k budget, although the Westfield SDV based on an MX5 donor may be do-able within budget.
If buying second hand then you should have a lot of choice. There's plenty of track prepped cars of the same marques as above available under £10k, including fairly powerful Westfields and maybe even the odd lower spec race prepped Caterham, but you'll get more bang for your buck in an £8k Striker for example than you will in a £10k Caterham.
As for engine choices, my personal opinion is that for dedicated track use, bike engines (BECs) for the money cannot be beaten. Ive got a Locost with an R1 engine in it kicking out around 160bhp and the performance / experience it provides (12k rpm limit, sequential gearbox) for an all-in cost of ~£1k for engine and gearbox is not something you could replicate with a conventional car engine IMHO. They aren't to everyone's taste though and there's no denying that you can also get brilliant performance from something like a Vauxhall 2L "Red Top" for reasonable cash, so I don't want to turn this into a BEC / CEC argument
Id recommend doing as much forum reading as possible though before you decide, some for starters would be
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk (originally Locost / MK forum but its branched out to incorporate owners of most lightweight kit cars and has a seperate BEC section
http://boardroom.wscc.co.uk (Westfield forum)
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/bike-engined-cars... (Yahoo BEC list for bike engine'd cars)
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/bike-engined-cars... (Sylva chat list for cars originating from Sylva such as the Striker, Fury, Phoenix etc)
Chris
You'll be able to either build or buy something suitable for £10k, so it really depends on where your priorities lie and if you want to build or are just building to get to the end result.
If you want to build then look at the various Lotus Seven clones available such as the MK Indy, MNR Vortx, Raw Striker etc, as well as the enclosed body cars like the Fisher Fury and STM Phoenix which are essentially very similar chassis wise but with enclosed style bodywork. I would normally mention Westfields and Caterhams as well, but you'll struggle to build a Westie and definitelty wont build a Caterham if you're on a strict £10k budget, although the Westfield SDV based on an MX5 donor may be do-able within budget.
If buying second hand then you should have a lot of choice. There's plenty of track prepped cars of the same marques as above available under £10k, including fairly powerful Westfields and maybe even the odd lower spec race prepped Caterham, but you'll get more bang for your buck in an £8k Striker for example than you will in a £10k Caterham.
As for engine choices, my personal opinion is that for dedicated track use, bike engines (BECs) for the money cannot be beaten. Ive got a Locost with an R1 engine in it kicking out around 160bhp and the performance / experience it provides (12k rpm limit, sequential gearbox) for an all-in cost of ~£1k for engine and gearbox is not something you could replicate with a conventional car engine IMHO. They aren't to everyone's taste though and there's no denying that you can also get brilliant performance from something like a Vauxhall 2L "Red Top" for reasonable cash, so I don't want to turn this into a BEC / CEC argument
Id recommend doing as much forum reading as possible though before you decide, some for starters would be
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk (originally Locost / MK forum but its branched out to incorporate owners of most lightweight kit cars and has a seperate BEC section
http://boardroom.wscc.co.uk (Westfield forum)
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/bike-engined-cars... (Yahoo BEC list for bike engine'd cars)
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/bike-engined-cars... (Sylva chat list for cars originating from Sylva such as the Striker, Fury, Phoenix etc)
Chris
You will get a lot of kit car (completed atleast) for £10k. Front engined, mid engined, 4 cylinder car engine, bike engine, V8 .....take your pick.
edit: Howe about this one? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Global-GT-Light-Race-Car-Tra...
- not strictly a kit perhaps but near enough
Or on a similar theme, but definitely kit built with a useful 250hp,
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/213064.htm
Similar thing again (but a bit prettier!) ....and bike powered
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/188309.htm
And finally,
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/216024.htm
edit: Howe about this one? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Global-GT-Light-Race-Car-Tra...
- not strictly a kit perhaps but near enough
Or on a similar theme, but definitely kit built with a useful 250hp,
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/213064.htm
Similar thing again (but a bit prettier!) ....and bike powered
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/188309.htm
And finally,
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/216024.htm
Edited by Chris71 on Friday 31st August 13:43
Hi Varn,
This is a bit naughty on your thread, but relevant.
We are selling the Toniq R Fireblade engined demo car at the moment, registered on an '07' plate and £10k would secure it as we are building some brand new Toniq demonstrators for next year so are selling this one cheap to clear the decks.
This is the car that was tested by Pistonheads at Brands and the review can be found in the road tests section of the site.
As others have said there are lots of great cars around at this price point, draw up a sort list of ones that you like the look of, go and view/drive some, buy one and go have lots and lots of fun!
Neil.
This is a bit naughty on your thread, but relevant.
We are selling the Toniq R Fireblade engined demo car at the moment, registered on an '07' plate and £10k would secure it as we are building some brand new Toniq demonstrators for next year so are selling this one cheap to clear the decks.
This is the car that was tested by Pistonheads at Brands and the review can be found in the road tests section of the site.
As others have said there are lots of great cars around at this price point, draw up a sort list of ones that you like the look of, go and view/drive some, buy one and go have lots and lots of fun!
Neil.
Sorry I didnt mean to imply that i was ready to spend the £10k yet (only been out of uni and in a job for 2 months!). I just needed to do some brain picking/research in advance
£10K is my upper limit and im guessing paying for training on a track day etc is more effective than spending that extra on the car. To be honest id prefer to spend the smallest amount possible on the car while still keeping it fastish. But if you guys think I should wait until i have around 8-10k then say so :P
Currently im more than happy to make the car, but only if its a cheaper option.
Any ideas?
Thanks again
£10K is my upper limit and im guessing paying for training on a track day etc is more effective than spending that extra on the car. To be honest id prefer to spend the smallest amount possible on the car while still keeping it fastish. But if you guys think I should wait until i have around 8-10k then say so :P
Currently im more than happy to make the car, but only if its a cheaper option.
Any ideas?
Thanks again
Realistically building anything reasonable is going to cost you £8k or more, but if you don't mind venturing away from Westfields / Caterhams in the second hand market then there's plenty of quick stuff available for between £5k and £7k, such as bike powered MK Indys / STM Locosts, well sorted Strikers etc etc.
Some examples plucked from the classifieds, some sold admittedly but it gives you an idea.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/224481.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/218946.htm (not road legal so more for your money)
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/201019.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/168633.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/200168.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/215028.htm (265bhp!)
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/181343.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/226951.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/210942.htm
Admittedly mostly bike engines but at the £5-6k level it seems to be either bike engines or older engines like Pintos and Xflows, and for track only use there's no contest really.
Some examples plucked from the classifieds, some sold admittedly but it gives you an idea.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/224481.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/218946.htm (not road legal so more for your money)
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/201019.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/168633.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/200168.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/215028.htm (265bhp!)
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/181343.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/226951.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/210942.htm
Admittedly mostly bike engines but at the £5-6k level it seems to be either bike engines or older engines like Pintos and Xflows, and for track only use there's no contest really.
Get a finished or part-built kit. Some part built cars go for a song, but they may not be built as well as you'd like (same goes for fully built I guess).
If you get serious into the track days then you will spend a lot of time fiddling with the car anyway, so you'll get to know it well enough to fix most things.
As for what - if you can tow it there and back and it will jsut be a toy, don't bother getting a road legal car. If, in any way, you can see any need to drive it on a public road (to the circuit and back say, just for a Sunday blat, or if it's the only car you have access to and you need to get somebody to hospital quick) get a road legal one: As a rule of thumb you get less for your money with SVA'd cars than non-road-legal ones, but they are far more useful.
Bike engines are fine, but are not to everybodies taste (I love them).
Generally something with skinny wheels, engine in the front and you bum as far back over the rear axel as it can go will give you the most feel, fun and (IMO) most scope for learning car control, but not the most speed - depends what you want.
I'd also say look at road cars that have been track prep'ed. These are generally cheap, but very well looked after.
For training, I have to say Don Palmer's Car Control Course every time, though there are others out there. You're looking at 400(ish) quid for a full day for most good training/coaching days, but 10 of them are worth far more than 4 grands worth car.
If you get serious into the track days then you will spend a lot of time fiddling with the car anyway, so you'll get to know it well enough to fix most things.
As for what - if you can tow it there and back and it will jsut be a toy, don't bother getting a road legal car. If, in any way, you can see any need to drive it on a public road (to the circuit and back say, just for a Sunday blat, or if it's the only car you have access to and you need to get somebody to hospital quick) get a road legal one: As a rule of thumb you get less for your money with SVA'd cars than non-road-legal ones, but they are far more useful.
Bike engines are fine, but are not to everybodies taste (I love them).
Generally something with skinny wheels, engine in the front and you bum as far back over the rear axel as it can go will give you the most feel, fun and (IMO) most scope for learning car control, but not the most speed - depends what you want.
I'd also say look at road cars that have been track prep'ed. These are generally cheap, but very well looked after.
For training, I have to say Don Palmer's Car Control Course every time, though there are others out there. You're looking at 400(ish) quid for a full day for most good training/coaching days, but 10 of them are worth far more than 4 grands worth car.
Edited by Foolish Dave on Tuesday 4th September 20:01
Just to add my £0.02,
I was in a similar situation I wanted a track day car that I may long term compete with.
Building one to an acceptable level was beyond my budget
Looked at a few road legal & track only cars inc. BEC's & CEC's
In the end went for an ex 750MC competitors Sylva Phoenix with a X-flow, had previously been road legal and needed a few small jobs to return to road legal (basic things like pedal rubbers & Horn)
My thinking was somebody had already done the hard work of developing an effective car, plus it came with spares and advice on set ups.
A lot less than your budget of £10k.
HTH's
regards
Gareth
I was in a similar situation I wanted a track day car that I may long term compete with.
Building one to an acceptable level was beyond my budget
Looked at a few road legal & track only cars inc. BEC's & CEC's
In the end went for an ex 750MC competitors Sylva Phoenix with a X-flow, had previously been road legal and needed a few small jobs to return to road legal (basic things like pedal rubbers & Horn)
My thinking was somebody had already done the hard work of developing an effective car, plus it came with spares and advice on set ups.
A lot less than your budget of £10k.
HTH's
regards
Gareth
neilrallying said:
Hi Varn,
This is a bit naughty on your thread, but relevant.
We are selling the Toniq R Fireblade engined demo car at the moment, registered on an '07' plate and £10k would secure it as we are building some brand new Toniq demonstrators for next year so are selling this one cheap to clear the decks.
Neil.
That is naughty, on a number of levels Neil!This is a bit naughty on your thread, but relevant.
We are selling the Toniq R Fireblade engined demo car at the moment, registered on an '07' plate and £10k would secure it as we are building some brand new Toniq demonstrators for next year so are selling this one cheap to clear the decks.
Neil.
I think BEC is the way forward for me, but im guessing the only way to find out is to drive one. what do you guys think of this? i would build it myself... http://www.mkdevelopments.co.uk/
or too low a figure for the track speed per £ compared to a sylvia or similar?
or too low a figure for the track speed per £ compared to a sylvia or similar?
Edited by Varn on Tuesday 11th September 10:55
The SprintR is fairly new but everyone who's driven it says its a nice bit of kit so Id certainly keep it on the list of options. The big drawback for me though would be the single seater aspect which means its pretty much useless on the road and means you can't get tuition or take out friends for passenger rides on track.
I can't imagine many decent trackday organisers allowing that car on the track, because even with the little wheel arches it's technically "open wheeled" which are usually banned due to being far too easy to tangle with things. Also trackdays are far more fun with a passenger.
If I'd just left Uni and hadn't done much track driving I'd spend £1500 on a really Decent eunos 1600, (not a UK MX5 as it probably won't have an LSD) put a cage in it, and learn to drive fast.
A eunos driven at 100% will do very well against some serious kit you can only drive at 75%. Whilst you are learning to drive the eunos and having great fun then you can be saving up / building up a kit of your choice, and by going on more events you'll see other peoples cars and no doubt get to have a ride in them.
If I'd just left Uni and hadn't done much track driving I'd spend £1500 on a really Decent eunos 1600, (not a UK MX5 as it probably won't have an LSD) put a cage in it, and learn to drive fast.
A eunos driven at 100% will do very well against some serious kit you can only drive at 75%. Whilst you are learning to drive the eunos and having great fun then you can be saving up / building up a kit of your choice, and by going on more events you'll see other peoples cars and no doubt get to have a ride in them.
I believe the car has been shown to several trackday organisers and all of them have given it the thumbs up. I think the main thing is that its road legal therefore the circuit insurance will automatically cover it so the "single seater / open wheel" rule doesn't apply.
As to the mudguards themselves, they're no different to an Atom or the front of a Caterfield!
As to the mudguards themselves, they're no different to an Atom or the front of a Caterfield!
MK do both track specific and road legal versions - would the track version be covered by the insurance you speak of?
I dont mind not driving passengers around, but would i need a 2 seater for tuition? or would I use thier car(s)?
Is an alternative to join a 'track driving school' if there is such a thing, while i build/save for a decent track car?
Thanks for all of this info guys - its really helping
I dont mind not driving passengers around, but would i need a 2 seater for tuition? or would I use thier car(s)?
Is an alternative to join a 'track driving school' if there is such a thing, while i build/save for a decent track car?
Thanks for all of this info guys - its really helping
Edited by Varn on Tuesday 11th September 14:14
Track tuition on generaly trackdays which usually costs ~ £20 a session is in your own car unless you pay (loads) for an arrive and drive type affair for a whole day of tuition, if its available.
As to the insurance, I dont know. Remember that its not insurance for your car though, its the trackday organiser's liability insurance to protect themselves, so if the organiser says its OK then you have nothing to worry about but Id check with them on a track only version because to me I can't see how it would be defined and seperated from something like a Formula Ford with cycle wings on.
To be honest though if I were you I'd maybe look at something more "conventional" to start with seeing as you have no track experience. Having something like a Westfield or Striker will allow you to get tuition in your own car which is going to cost less and be a lot more relevent than being instructed in a random tintop that you're not used to driving then trying to convert that to suit your own car, and also will give you a large knowledgebase of owners to tap into for information on setup etc, which is important if you don't have anything yourself to compare it against.
As to the insurance, I dont know. Remember that its not insurance for your car though, its the trackday organiser's liability insurance to protect themselves, so if the organiser says its OK then you have nothing to worry about but Id check with them on a track only version because to me I can't see how it would be defined and seperated from something like a Formula Ford with cycle wings on.
To be honest though if I were you I'd maybe look at something more "conventional" to start with seeing as you have no track experience. Having something like a Westfield or Striker will allow you to get tuition in your own car which is going to cost less and be a lot more relevent than being instructed in a random tintop that you're not used to driving then trying to convert that to suit your own car, and also will give you a large knowledgebase of owners to tap into for information on setup etc, which is important if you don't have anything yourself to compare it against.
Edited by LocoBlade on Tuesday 11th September 18:43
I went on the RGB forum and put up a wanted ad. (Kit cars, bike engined, actually used for racing) I got about 6-8 replies between 5k-12k; some of them proven race winners. so in answer to your question:
Yes you can get a kit based track car that isn't a nail for £10,000.
In fact if you're not too fussy, you could maybe set up in racing for that amount. That's what I'm doing for not much more.
can't remember the org/com/co.uk bit, but google bikecars or the 750mc. that'll give you a good idea.
Yes you can get a kit based track car that isn't a nail for £10,000.
In fact if you're not too fussy, you could maybe set up in racing for that amount. That's what I'm doing for not much more.
can't remember the org/com/co.uk bit, but google bikecars or the 750mc. that'll give you a good idea.
I would like to go into racing, but only once im good enough - for the moment im just after learning how to drive fast on a track.
Which do you lot think is the better option -
1) Buy an Elise S1 in February as my road car and I could track that also.
2) Stay with current road car and buy a Jap MX-5 (do i go for a 1.6 or 1.8?) just for trackdays - not insured etc for the road.
3) Stay with current road car and buy a cheap seven lookalike for trackdays - not insured etc for the road.
Cheaper is better, but i dont want to spend a tiny amount on something that isnt going to be worth it. The MX-5 for £1500 does sound nice to my wallet though...
Any options ive missed let me know!
Thanks guys - I await your infinite wisdom
Which do you lot think is the better option -
1) Buy an Elise S1 in February as my road car and I could track that also.
2) Stay with current road car and buy a Jap MX-5 (do i go for a 1.6 or 1.8?) just for trackdays - not insured etc for the road.
3) Stay with current road car and buy a cheap seven lookalike for trackdays - not insured etc for the road.
Cheaper is better, but i dont want to spend a tiny amount on something that isnt going to be worth it. The MX-5 for £1500 does sound nice to my wallet though...
Any options ive missed let me know!
Thanks guys - I await your infinite wisdom
Edited by Varn on Tuesday 18th September 12:38
If racing is your ultimate aim then I'd say get yourself a cheap MX5 (or maybe MR2) and put the money saved by not buying a costlier car into driving tuition and practice.
That way you can learn correct circuit driving techniques from the off rather than potentially developing bad habits and then having to break them.
Basically, spending a few hundred pounds improving the driver will produce a far bigger reduction in lap times than spending a few hundred pounds improving the car.
Most circuits have driving schools so make enquiries at the one nearest to you.
That way you can learn correct circuit driving techniques from the off rather than potentially developing bad habits and then having to break them.
Basically, spending a few hundred pounds improving the driver will produce a far bigger reduction in lap times than spending a few hundred pounds improving the car.
Most circuits have driving schools so make enquiries at the one nearest to you.
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