What is the Answer?
Discussion
Is it just me? I seem to have witnessed a gradual deterioration in driving standards during my 15 odd years of driving and I put this down to the following...
1. The increasing number of cars on the road making many (not all!) people drive more selfishly.
2. Lack of police resources to patrol the roads. They rely on cameras instead, which can't pull someone over and have a quiet word, or apply an appropriate penalty based on cirumstances.
3. TV advertising campaigns using shock tactics to highlight the possible consequences of speeding. When was the last time you saw one of those late night ads warning of the dangers of jumping lights, or reminding people how to indicate at roundabouts? Surely an excellent public service the BBC could be providing?
The recent appalling incident on the M1 seems to have been due to poor driving, not excessive speed...I reserve the right to withdraw this comment once the full facts have come to light.
So what is the answer?
I think that we need to look at realistic ways to improve general driving standards. I suggest the following:
1. Reintroduction of public information broadcasts on the BBC relating to motoring.
2. The option of driver re-education as an alternative to points. To be paid for by the offender.
3. Fairer policing of the roads.
What does everyone else think about the causes and possible cures?
1. The increasing number of cars on the road making many (not all!) people drive more selfishly.
2. Lack of police resources to patrol the roads. They rely on cameras instead, which can't pull someone over and have a quiet word, or apply an appropriate penalty based on cirumstances.
3. TV advertising campaigns using shock tactics to highlight the possible consequences of speeding. When was the last time you saw one of those late night ads warning of the dangers of jumping lights, or reminding people how to indicate at roundabouts? Surely an excellent public service the BBC could be providing?
The recent appalling incident on the M1 seems to have been due to poor driving, not excessive speed...I reserve the right to withdraw this comment once the full facts have come to light.
So what is the answer?
I think that we need to look at realistic ways to improve general driving standards. I suggest the following:
1. Reintroduction of public information broadcasts on the BBC relating to motoring.
2. The option of driver re-education as an alternative to points. To be paid for by the offender.
3. Fairer policing of the roads.
What does everyone else think about the causes and possible cures?
how about these ones?
a.)random stop checks of all vehicles,any not insured,taxed or mot'd (unless the car is booked at an mot station and is on its way to or from the testing station) are automatically removed from the road and destroyed at the owners expense.
b.)any vehicle with defects making the car a danger are removed and stored at a secure impound yard at the owners expense.(i bet its amazing how many are between one and three years old!,ive noticed loads are untaxed!)
c.)police should no longer be tied to the scamera partnership and should be allowed to get on with their jobs without the govt or the bloody socialist,lentil munching doo-gooders interfearing(as lets face it,what do they know.....they are still away with the fairys!)
im sure most traffic cops would love to do(A) and (B)as they see these new generation of shiters every day and if (c) were implimented then there would be a few extra bodies about helping the rest of us.
>> Edited by cortinaman on Thursday 12th June 22:46
a.)random stop checks of all vehicles,any not insured,taxed or mot'd (unless the car is booked at an mot station and is on its way to or from the testing station) are automatically removed from the road and destroyed at the owners expense.
b.)any vehicle with defects making the car a danger are removed and stored at a secure impound yard at the owners expense.(i bet its amazing how many are between one and three years old!,ive noticed loads are untaxed!)
c.)police should no longer be tied to the scamera partnership and should be allowed to get on with their jobs without the govt or the bloody socialist,lentil munching doo-gooders interfearing(as lets face it,what do they know.....they are still away with the fairys!)
im sure most traffic cops would love to do(A) and (B)as they see these new generation of shiters every day and if (c) were implimented then there would be a few extra bodies about helping the rest of us.
>> Edited by cortinaman on Thursday 12th June 22:46
a and b actually happen.
In certain london boroughs we conduct multi agency road checks and any vehicle with dangerous defects which we PG9 is immediately removed by a firm of removal contractors, It costs an arm and a leg to get back, and that's on top of the fines and all that, not to mention a chat from the DSS immigration DVLA etc.
I know you mentioned documentation offences but in my experience they all go hand in hand and one invariably reveals the other.
In certain london boroughs we conduct multi agency road checks and any vehicle with dangerous defects which we PG9 is immediately removed by a firm of removal contractors, It costs an arm and a leg to get back, and that's on top of the fines and all that, not to mention a chat from the DSS immigration DVLA etc.
I know you mentioned documentation offences but in my experience they all go hand in hand and one invariably reveals the other.
Actually, driver re-education is also in existance. It works like this;
Police officer witnesses bad driving, usually more than just speed (tailgating, undertaking etc).
police officer reports driver for summons but mentions the London driver improvement scheme, explaining that for a two day course costing about £100 they could avoid points/fine etc.
Driver obviously thinks this good idea so police officer recommends this in his report.
Chief inspector has final say.
Don't know how good the system is but i've referred tons of poor drivers.
Police officer witnesses bad driving, usually more than just speed (tailgating, undertaking etc).
police officer reports driver for summons but mentions the London driver improvement scheme, explaining that for a two day course costing about £100 they could avoid points/fine etc.
Driver obviously thinks this good idea so police officer recommends this in his report.
Chief inspector has final say.
Don't know how good the system is but i've referred tons of poor drivers.
The answer is annual driving tests. The idea that you pass once and then are always qualified to drive is crazy. My grandfather has just given up driving.
He's 98.
I once heard someone discussing a house move, they were moving from Bristol to London and had rented a van. They hadn't driven anything since they had passed their test three years previously.
Both of these are perfectly legal.
Now we can't have a system where tomorrow everyone's licence expires. It needs to be phased. What I'm about to advocate sounds as though I don't want to have to take another test. It's not that, this is designed to reduce the backlash.
We start with a system where anyone new who passes a test gets a five year licence. This gives plenty of time to build up the ability to do re-tests. After five years the time drops to three years. After three to two and after two to one. It will take us eleven years to get to annual testing, but the result will be a much safer driving population.
The tests should build on the previous ones. Teaching how to drive economically, more anticipation, be courteous. All this aimed at gently improving the standard of the driving population.
It will take time (like 80 years) before everyone is on this regime, although if you lose your licence (speeding, totting, DD) you move into the new scheme.
The whole thing is funded by people paying for the test. If you can't afford two tankfulls of petrol a year(say £60) you need to ask if you can maintain a car.
Simon
He's 98.
I once heard someone discussing a house move, they were moving from Bristol to London and had rented a van. They hadn't driven anything since they had passed their test three years previously.
Both of these are perfectly legal.
Now we can't have a system where tomorrow everyone's licence expires. It needs to be phased. What I'm about to advocate sounds as though I don't want to have to take another test. It's not that, this is designed to reduce the backlash.
We start with a system where anyone new who passes a test gets a five year licence. This gives plenty of time to build up the ability to do re-tests. After five years the time drops to three years. After three to two and after two to one. It will take us eleven years to get to annual testing, but the result will be a much safer driving population.
The tests should build on the previous ones. Teaching how to drive economically, more anticipation, be courteous. All this aimed at gently improving the standard of the driving population.
It will take time (like 80 years) before everyone is on this regime, although if you lose your licence (speeding, totting, DD) you move into the new scheme.
The whole thing is funded by people paying for the test. If you can't afford two tankfulls of petrol a year(say £60) you need to ask if you can maintain a car.
Simon
46TEE said: a and b actually happen.
In certain london boroughs we conduct multi agency road checks and any vehicle with dangerous defects which we PG9 is immediately removed by a firm of removal contractors, It costs an arm and a leg to get back, and that's on top of the fines and all that.
46tee,i dont suppose you could get someone to chat to a senior officer in the essex force and get them to concentrate on this side of things as they seem to think the only thing to police work is sitting behind a hedge/parked car/etc and firing the old 'kodak' at drivers or sitting in vans operating scameras.i used to live in hillingdon (uxbridge met) and my father was an ex-alperton 'black rat' and i have nothing but praise for the met,they didnt take no crap and mostly they werent a petty bunch(although heathrow div. had p.c kelly on his chicken chaser,fit-up artist and world class arsehole!!)but essex div. only concentrate on speeding and NOT driver education or just having a quiet word in their shell(unless they have a tv camera crew on board,of course!),its points and a fine only and this has lost them so much respect that no-one is willing to help them and in some cases even acnowledge their existance.
i think its a sad state of things when my dad,an ex-t.d officer says that he doesnt trust the motives of the police force as it is now part of the labour spin initiative and is ashamed to even put his (once prized) black rat in his window.
simonrockman said: The answer is annual driving tests. The idea that you pass once and then are always qualified to drive is crazy. My grandfather has just given up driving.
He's 98.
I once heard someone discussing a house move, they were moving from Bristol to London and had rented a van. They hadn't driven anything since they had passed their test three years previously.
Both of these are perfectly legal.
Now we can't have a system where tomorrow everyone's licence expires. It needs to be phased. What I'm about to advocate sounds as though I don't want to have to take another test. It's not that, this is designed to reduce the backlash.
We start with a system where anyone new who passes a test gets a five year licence. This gives plenty of time to build up the ability to do re-tests. After five years the time drops to three years. After three to two and after two to one. It will take us eleven years to get to annual testing, but the result will be a much safer driving population.
The tests should build on the previous ones. Teaching how to drive economically, more anticipation, be courteous. All this aimed at gently improving the standard of the driving population.
It will take time (like 80 years) before everyone is on this regime, although if you lose your licence (speeding, totting, DD) you move into the new scheme.
The whole thing is funded by people paying for the test. If you can't afford two tankfulls of petrol a year(say £60) you need to ask if you can maintain a car.
Simon
That just teaches you how to pass a test.
It doesn't mean you are a safe driver.
Also what about someone who can't pass tests due to nerves and took 14 attempts to pass their first test. Do they deserve to lose their livelihood?
m-five said:
simonrockman said: Also what about someone who can't pass tests due to nerves and took 14 attempts to pass their first test. Do they deserve to lose their livelihood?
If they're a menace to other road users, yes. Their right to earn a living is in no way more important than my right not to get run over by a numpty.
I have sometimes thought long and hard about this particular question and to be honest there isnt a real answer that can solve it simply and easily. However, I do think that there is plenty that can be done (and is already being done in some places) to correct the issues at hand.
Unfortunately the government (they are all the same so I am not going to get on my high horse here) sees a problem and takes the decision to do something - but it is usually the short-termist and quick fix route - hence the target speeders and make the driving test harder. Not exactly dealing with the core of the problem..... and has been proven it doesnt really solve the problem, but simply highlights that they are crap.
So what to do? I do have a few suggestions:
1) A comprehensive driver training programme - I suggest that there is a 10 year re-test for all and this decreasing to 5 years for the over 70. As part of the training, you will be assessed for safety and not competetance to change gear or do a three point turn!!! Police involved in this and adding specific areas of concern and problems with drivers as a whole.
2) A massive clamp down on un-taxed and un-insured cars and drivers - obviously this needs to be done, but I want to see this everywhere! Also all these people that modify their cars and dont tell their insurance company are effectively classified as un-insured also - they need to be clamped down on too!!!
3) Much heavier sentencing for the extremes of driving penalties - manslaughter in a driving offence should carry 10-20 not 4 years!!!
4) A re-focus of the scamera system to provide transparency and targeting to their use (like outside schools and high risk areas - not NSL roads that are pin straight!)
5) A re-investment in the Traffic Police - get them out helping and catching people, not sat in offices
6) Compulsory re-training and re-test for all serious offenders involved in motoring crimes
7) Life-time bans for all serial car thiefs and car jackers
8) Strenghtening of the rules and regulations to do with the safety of cars / vans / trucks on the road - all these Max Power converted cars need checking by an expert I am afraid!
9) Compulsory education every year (including test) for all company car drivers
Seems that I am targetting Max Power mod'ed cars and old timers, but these are the two areas in which I see some of the larger risks. I have made no comment of speed, its about education and enforcement. This way we can look 5 - 10 years down the line and see a change in the attitudes to driving - like its a skill to be learnt, refined and if you transgres it can be taken away.... Too many drivers live in the 'it wont happen to me' or 'I'm a good driver' camp and just dont understand that driving at 50 in a 30 zone (happened to me yesterday as someon nearly lost it on a corner and smashed into my wife's car, including me and my little boy!) isnt acceptible.
Just for the record, driving at 35 in a 30 is illegal but doesnt represent a huge risk - driving at 45 in the same place is.... we need to get the average speed down, not target everyone that might accidentally drift over the speed limit....
Long winded answer, but in line with everyone else - EDUCATION EDUCATION and more EDUCATION....
Cheers,
Paul
Unfortunately the government (they are all the same so I am not going to get on my high horse here) sees a problem and takes the decision to do something - but it is usually the short-termist and quick fix route - hence the target speeders and make the driving test harder. Not exactly dealing with the core of the problem..... and has been proven it doesnt really solve the problem, but simply highlights that they are crap.
So what to do? I do have a few suggestions:
1) A comprehensive driver training programme - I suggest that there is a 10 year re-test for all and this decreasing to 5 years for the over 70. As part of the training, you will be assessed for safety and not competetance to change gear or do a three point turn!!! Police involved in this and adding specific areas of concern and problems with drivers as a whole.
2) A massive clamp down on un-taxed and un-insured cars and drivers - obviously this needs to be done, but I want to see this everywhere! Also all these people that modify their cars and dont tell their insurance company are effectively classified as un-insured also - they need to be clamped down on too!!!
3) Much heavier sentencing for the extremes of driving penalties - manslaughter in a driving offence should carry 10-20 not 4 years!!!
4) A re-focus of the scamera system to provide transparency and targeting to their use (like outside schools and high risk areas - not NSL roads that are pin straight!)
5) A re-investment in the Traffic Police - get them out helping and catching people, not sat in offices
6) Compulsory re-training and re-test for all serious offenders involved in motoring crimes
7) Life-time bans for all serial car thiefs and car jackers
8) Strenghtening of the rules and regulations to do with the safety of cars / vans / trucks on the road - all these Max Power converted cars need checking by an expert I am afraid!
9) Compulsory education every year (including test) for all company car drivers
Seems that I am targetting Max Power mod'ed cars and old timers, but these are the two areas in which I see some of the larger risks. I have made no comment of speed, its about education and enforcement. This way we can look 5 - 10 years down the line and see a change in the attitudes to driving - like its a skill to be learnt, refined and if you transgres it can be taken away.... Too many drivers live in the 'it wont happen to me' or 'I'm a good driver' camp and just dont understand that driving at 50 in a 30 zone (happened to me yesterday as someon nearly lost it on a corner and smashed into my wife's car, including me and my little boy!) isnt acceptible.
Just for the record, driving at 35 in a 30 is illegal but doesnt represent a huge risk - driving at 45 in the same place is.... we need to get the average speed down, not target everyone that might accidentally drift over the speed limit....
Long winded answer, but in line with everyone else - EDUCATION EDUCATION and more EDUCATION....
Cheers,
Paul
I don't want to appear like I am supportive of the Government on this subject BUT - if we are all in favour of additional driver testing then why not undertake something like the IAM or ROSPA lessons.
If more of us take up the responsibilities off our own back it may begin to help the situation.
Thing is that insurance companies don't seem to recognise the Advanced Motoring Certificate as much as I would have expected thus there is not really much incentive.
A Government led campaign that offers incentives for passing these tests would surely help.
We all like to whinge about this topic but how many of us have actually done something about it?
>> Edited by lucozade on Friday 13th June 10:55
If more of us take up the responsibilities off our own back it may begin to help the situation.
Thing is that insurance companies don't seem to recognise the Advanced Motoring Certificate as much as I would have expected thus there is not really much incentive.
A Government led campaign that offers incentives for passing these tests would surely help.
We all like to whinge about this topic but how many of us have actually done something about it?
>> Edited by lucozade on Friday 13th June 10:55
loaf said:
m-five said:
simonrockman said: Also what about someone who can't pass tests due to nerves and took 14 attempts to pass their first test. Do they deserve to lose their livelihood?
If they're a menace to other road users, yes. Their right to earn a living is in no way more important than my right not to get run over by a numpty.
I don't mean that they are bad drivers and hence should lose their livelihood, but rather they cannot pass the re-test due to nerves.
This real life scenario is my mother. She took 14 attempts to pass her driving test. Every time she took a mock test she was fine, but as soon as the examiner got in the car she went completely blank . . . couldn't find the gears, kept adjusting the mirrors, tried adjusting her seat on the move, waiting for 5 minutes to get out of a junction, etc.
Under real world conditions she is a decent driver (although she does like to piss off boy racers in the wrong lane at lights by screeching off and not letting them in).
Following on from Lucozade's post...how many on here have done any driver taining since passing their test?
I've done some advanced lessons, and also had an assesment from my insurance company which I had to pay £20 for, but it knocked 10% off my premium so paid for itself.
I think retesting would not be workable because the resources are not available, and so many people would fail that it would start causing problems!
The assesment I had was a sort of 'refresher' and certainly improved my driving. So perhaps instead of a full test some sort of refresher would be more workable?
I've done some advanced lessons, and also had an assesment from my insurance company which I had to pay £20 for, but it knocked 10% off my premium so paid for itself.
I think retesting would not be workable because the resources are not available, and so many people would fail that it would start causing problems!
The assesment I had was a sort of 'refresher' and certainly improved my driving. So perhaps instead of a full test some sort of refresher would be more workable?
plotloss said: Random retests on a 12 monthly basis with a one week notice period.
Unless you have gone through IAM and/or RoSPA
If you fail you lose your license simple as that.
Actually thats a really good idea - maybe a little too short - but make it like the jury service thing. It just happens and there is not much that you can do to get out of it.... random on names and pretty frequent... the threat of testing would be sufficient to get people thinking and driving correctly...
Nice one....
danhay said: Following on from Lucozade's post...how many on here have done any driver taining since passing their test?
I've done some advanced lessons, and also had an assesment from my insurance company which I had to pay £20 for, but it knocked 10% off my premium so paid for itself.
I think retesting would not be workable because the resources are not available, and so many people would fail that it would start causing problems!
The assesment I had was a sort of 'refresher' and certainly improved my driving. So perhaps instead of a full test some sort of refresher would be more workable?
fair point - i've done bog all in the way of further training, though i have thought about, i never did it but think that if this was recognised by more insurer's we'd all be at it.
the resources are there, they are just being used for something else! i don't know how much the tests cost these days, but i remember it being >£25 when i was a nipper - and i'm pretty sure it wouldn't have cost them £25 to pay the over-grown mekon i got on my test for 1/2 an hour of his time
retesting good, but witness the recent survey of newly qualified drivers who say they had insufficient training. my instructor took his responsibilities seriously, and taught me to drive, rather than just pass the test.
>> Edited by chimburt on Friday 13th June 19:16
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff