Court - FPN - Warning

[Sheriff JWPepper]

There are frequent threads from people who feel that they have been harshly treated for various motoring offences. Well I'd be interested to hear people's views on how they would deal with things.

If you were a BiB which offences would be shown discretion and which ones would be dealt with?

How would you satisfy yourself that someone had made a mistake rather than deliberately taken that course of action.

I've listed a few to get the ball rolling.

1) Fogs on in good conditions. £30 FPN or warn?
2) Using mobile phones. Court, £60 FPN & 3 points or warn?
3) Jumping red lights. Court, £60 FPN & 3 points or warn?
4) No insurance. Court, £200 FPN & 6 points or warn?
5) Tailgaing - Court or warn
6) Speeding - nah second thoughts don't bother with that one, I think I already know
7) Drink driving. Obvious
8) Stereo way too loud?
9) Tyres below minimum tread depth?

Edited by Sheriff JWPepper on Tuesday 11th September 01:48

[Brett928S2]

Hi

Thats a good list , with 1 slight problem....why should the MOPs be done for some of them when at least 4 of those 9 the BIB do all the time ??

All the best Brett

Edited by Brett928S2 on Tuesday 11th September 01:56

[outlaw...]

1) Fogs on in good conditions. £30 FPN or warn?
take the piss then warn

2) Using mobile phones. Court, £60 FPN & 3 points or warn?
depends if they are doing safely or not as it is perfectly possible to use one with common sense if the cant drive for shit warn if total nob FPN

3) Jumping red lights. Court, £60 FPN & 3 points or warn?
accidental non intentional warn deliberate FPN

4) No insurance. Court, £200 FPN & 6 points or warn?
I genuine reason IE simply for got renewal or paper cock up warn otherwise FPN

5) Tailgating - Court or warn
FPN

6) Speeding - nah second thoughts don't bother with that one, I think I already know smile
IF appear to bee able to drive don't bother if can give advice and demo on correct speed and observation

7) Drink driving. Obvious
If driving ok do nothing if not do em

8) Stereo way too loud
depends how carap there taste in music is.

9) Tyres below minimum tread depth
FPN they are a muppet

[randlemarcus]

Sheriff JWPepper said:

Pop Quiz!

1) Fogs on in good conditions. £30 FPN or warn?
Numpty = warn. Combined with Halfords RamRaid(tm) FPN
2) Using mobile phones. Court, £60 FPN & 3 points or warn?
FPN. Ought to be camera nickable post offence, but would probably lead to too many appeals.
3) Jumping red lights. Court, £60 FPN & 3 points or warn?
FPN & Points.
4) No insurance. Court, £200 FPN & 6 points or warn?
Court.
5) Tailgaing - Court or warn
Cant decide. personal thoughts are warn, as I occasionally break the two second rule, but dont like it up me(Mr Mannering).
6) Speeding - nah second thoughts don't bother with that one, I think I already know
Reward vouchers?
7) Drink driving. Obvious
Yup.
8) Stereo way too loud?
Court, breach of the peace.
9) Tyres below minimum tread depth?
Funny one. Absolutely agree with the FPN and points, but might be a perception of it as a bit of a "being picked on" after a stop offence, if you see what I mean? Nice, simple, zero tolerance policy might encourage people to take better care. Obviously, this doesnt include motorcycles being ridden down to the wires Although when this was me, I had checked them when I set out, and would have accepted the points with dignity.

[havoc]

Sheriff JWPepper said:

1) Fogs on in good conditions. £30 FPN or warn?
2) Using mobile phones. Court, £60 FPN & 3 points or warn?
3) Jumping red lights. Court, £60 FPN & 3 points or warn?
4) No insurance. Court, £200 FPN & 6 points or warn?
5) Tailgaing - Court or warn
6) Speeding - nah second thoughts don't bother with that one, I think I already know
7) Drink driving. Obvious
8) Stereo way too loud?
9) Tyres below minimum tread depth?

Good thread idea!

1) Warning. It's silly but it's not dangerous or (especially) distracting for others. MAIN BEAM on in the day is more of a b'gger if they're behind you!
2) Depends on circumstances and driving behaviour. Anywhere from warning (stationary in traffic or at a red light) through to court (pen in other hand taking notes, for example)
3) FPN & 3pts. Why clog the courts up further?
4) Court IF (and only IF) magistrates had been re-educated in how much insurance cost. Then the mags could decide if it had been a genuine oversight or if they're a scally.
5) Depends on severity. Could you do a formal caution...i.e. one step above a warning?
6) Completely depends on circumstances. 50 in a 30 would be a summons, 95 on a M-way could be anything from a polite 'keep it sensible' to a possible DWDCAA.
7) Agreed.
8) Friendly warning. Even to the chav element. Although the attitude-test would probably come into play there...
9) FPN...although IIRC it's 3pts/tyre...not sure I'd ban someone for all 4 tyres...probably 1 FPN regardless of # of tyres, maybe 2 if they were really taking the p'ss...

[Chrisgr31]

Sheriff JWPepper said:

Questions

Fogs. A warn, if 2nd offence then £30 FPN, however to save paperwork there would be no central record of the warning so would depend if stopped by the same officer.

Mobile - Depends on the seriousness of the offence. Stationary in traffic jam non moving traffic nothing, if blatantly distracted then surely its driving without due care?

Jumping red light FPN how can it be accidential?

No Insurance - Court and sensible fine of at least twice the cost of insurance (although maybe some discretion if only recently lapsed)

Tailgating - Warn on first offence as per fogs above

Speeding - At discretion

Drink driving - obvious

Stereo Warn as per fogs and tailgating

Tyres - Depends on circumstances. If just below warn and maybe ask for vehicle to be taken to police station within x hours with new ones? If blanant piss taking then FPN

[cuneus]

"1) Fogs on in good conditions. £30 FPN or warn?"

Summary execution with several bullets in the head

[NugentS]

I have one problem with the concept of warning.

How, and I suspect that the answer is "none", do the BiB know that someone has been warned for something like foglights before, chosen to ignore the warning and then get caught again...

Sean

[Bing o]

1) Fogs on in good conditions. £30 FPN or warn? death by rabid dogs
2) Using mobile phones. Court, £60 FPN & 3 points or warn? Prosecute with DWDCA where possible
3) Jumping red lights. Court, £60 FPN & 3 points or warn? 3 points, possibly DWDCA where available
4) No insurance. Court, £200 FPN & 6 points or warn? 6 points, possible ban
5) Tailgaing - Court or warn Prosecute with DWDCA where possible
6) Speeding - nah second thoughts don't bother with that one, I think I already know happy to keep the offence when patrolled by plod, and in built up areas
7) Drink driving. ObviousIncrease punishment where accidents occur rather than breath tests failed. Increase tarrif for failing to provide
8) Stereo way too loud? only before 9am/after 9pm
9) Tyres below minimum tread depth? 3 points per tyre - zero tolerance

[Davi]

Sheriff JWPepper said:

How would you satisfy yourself that someone had made a mistake rather than deliberately taken that course of action.

The car, the person, their attitude etc.

A bash at the list...


1) Fogs on in good conditions. £30 FPN or warn? a warning, but with severe piss taking education as to why they are idiots
2) Using mobile phones. Court, £60 FPN & 3 points or warn? FPN - there is no reason you cannot pull over
3) Jumping red lights. Court, £60 FPN & 3 points or warn? Court I think? not sure
4) No insurance. Court, £200 FPN & 6 points or warn? 1: expired 2 days ago with perfect previous record, or 2: never had any? 1 = warning, ensure car isn't driven until insured. 2: impound car and court. £200 fixed penalty is pointless as it's less than the insurance on 99% of cars.
5) Tailgaing - Court or warn general driving observed prior?
6) Speeding - nah second thoughts don't bother with that one, I think I already know but just in case, entirely dependant on the conditions
7) Drink driving. Obvious absolutely obvious
8) Stereo way too loud? take the piss, laugh at them lots, make faces like a window licker at them
9) Tyres below minimum tread depth? look at the rest of the car and just how much below they are - car clearly looked after and just below the limit - advise and warn. Car a heap and well below / dangerous - FPN

Edited by Davi on Tuesday 11th September 10:12

[Fidgits]

Sheriff JWPepper said:

There are frequent threads from people who feel that they have been harshly treated for various motoring offences. Well I'd be interested to hear people's views on how they would deal with things.

If you were a BiB which offences would be shown discretion and which ones would be dealt with?

How would you satisfy yourself that someone had made a mistake rather than deliberately taken that course of action.

I've listed a few to get the ball rolling.

1) Fogs on in good conditions. £30 FPN or warn?
2) Using mobile phones. Court, £60 FPN & 3 points or warn?
3) Jumping red lights. Court, £60 FPN & 3 points or warn?
4) No insurance. Court, £200 FPN & 6 points or warn?
5) Tailgaing - Court or warn
6) Speeding - nah second thoughts don't bother with that one, I think I already know
7) Drink driving. Obvious
8) Stereo way too loud?
9) Tyres below minimum tread depth?

Edited by Sheriff JWPepper on Tuesday 11th September 01:48

My personal opinion would be that each should be taken in context to the driver, situation, conditions etc.

The problem nowadays (observed, no evidence) is that it appears the few police we actually have driving around, have targets to meet.

So while, perhaps, #9 would get a stern warning to get it sorted immediately - now will result in a FPN for each wheel - simply to meet targets.

Now, im not saying they shouldn't get a FPN - but as above, there is a huge difference between having 1.5mm of tread on a tyre, and the thread poking through. Whether its height of summer or winter? whether its dry or wet?

[refresher]

Sheriff JWPepper said:

1) Fogs on in good conditions. word in their ear
2) Using mobile phones. £60 FPN & 3 points
3) Jumping red lights. discretion for <1 sec but £60 FPN & 3 points otherwise
4) No insurance. Court. no excuse for not having valid insurance
5) Tailgaing - Court - dangerous driving
6) Speeding - discretion, clear empty m-way then okay but built-up busy no
7) Drink driving. court. ban. no excuses.
8) Stereo way too loud? warn.
9) Tyres below minimum tread depth? FPN as per current regs

good thread btw

Edited by refresher on Tuesday 11th September 12:55

[Bing o]

Davi said:

4) No insurance. Court, £200 FPN & 6 points or warn? 1: expired 2 days ago with perfect previous record, or 2: never had any? 1 = warning, ensure car isn't driven until insured. 2: impound car and court. £200 fixed penalty is pointless as it's less than the insurance on 99% of cars.

Why? The impact of being hit by an uninsured driver isn't any less because it was an honest mistake - zero tolerance is the way to go IMHO.

[Davi]

Bing o said:

Davi said:

4) No insurance. Court, £200 FPN & 6 points or warn? 1: expired 2 days ago with perfect previous record, or 2: never had any? 1 = warning, ensure car isn't driven until insured. 2: impound car and court. £200 fixed penalty is pointless as it's less than the insurance on 99% of cars.

Why? The impact of being hit by an uninsured driver isn't any less because it was an honest mistake - zero tolerance is the way to go IMHO.

Unless things have changed you are still covered TP only for a while after your insurance has lapsed.

If you have a perfect track record of insurance, have NOT hit anyone and are prevented from continuing the journey, then there is no chance of this happening. I think a recorded warning would put the wind up most people enough to not make the mistake again. Of course if it isn't a genuine error and you don't meet the above criteria, then by all means string them out to dry.

[Bing o]

Davi said:

Unless things have changed you are still covered TP only for a while after your insurance has lapsed.

I never knew that - do you have a linky?

[TTwiggy]

It's interesting that the drink driving one is getting lots of 'zero tolerance' answers - do you think this is because it's genuinly more dangerous than running a red light? Drink driving was widely indulged in at one point in this country, and then massive media campaigns by the government turned it into the 'most evil thing a person could do'... I wonder, if you re-visited this thread in 20 years time, if the current witch hunt of speeders would see that offence upgraided to 'zero tolerance'?

by the way, i'm not condoning drink driving, this is more about shifting attitudes...

[Davi]

Bing o said:

Davi said:

Unless things have changed you are still covered TP only for a while after your insurance has lapsed.

I never knew that - do you have a linky?

Unfortunately not, I've been searching for something to back it up myself! I only found out when a friends insurer informed them after they had been hit by someone with lapsed cover, which was sorted without too much hassle. I asked my broker the next time I popped in and the comment was something along the lines of "it's not advertised for very obvious reasons but yes they will cover 3rd parties only for a limited period after the end of the policy"

[Bing o]

Davi said:

Bing o said:

Davi said:

Unless things have changed you are still covered TP only for a while after your insurance has lapsed.

I never knew that - do you have a linky?

Unfortunately not, I've been searching for something to back it up myself! I only found out when a friends insurer informed them after they had been hit by someone with lapsed cover, which was sorted without too much hassle. I asked my broker the next time I popped in and the comment was something along the lines of "it's not advertised for very obvious reasons but yes they will cover 3rd parties only for a limited period after the end of the policy"

Are you sure it's not from the insurance fund that we all pay into for uninsured drivers?

I don't see why an insurance company would be liable after the cover had ended (after all, a cover note is a contract, therefore after expiry it's not legally binding any more?)

In my bank, we wouldn't pay out on a derivative contract a week after it expired just because the markets moved in the clients favour...

[Davi]

Bing o said:

Are you sure it's not from the insurance fund that we all pay into for uninsured drivers?

I don't see why an insurance company would be liable after the cover had ended (after all, a cover note is a contract, therefore after expiry it's not legally binding any more?)

In my bank, we wouldn't pay out on a derivative contract a week after it expired just because the markets moved in the clients favour...

I don't know the details to be honest, but from the conversation I was led to believe it was the insurers themselves that had paid out (it's a few years back so my memory is sketchy on it) - I think it might have required payment of the renewal premium so that in essence it was more a case continuing cover, which for someone who had genuinely lapsed wouldn't be a problem anyway.

I'll ask the insurance bods in the office when they pop up.

Edited by Davi on Tuesday 11th September 14:31

[davidra]

this is fun :-) imagining being a trafpol

1) Fogs on in good conditions. £30 FPN or warn?
- Attitude test, if appear genuine mistake warn. Else FPN. Some cars hard to monitor/easy to switch.

2) Using mobile phones. Court, £60 FPN & 3 points or warn?
- Observe driving - bad=court/fpn good=warn.

3) Jumping red lights. Court, £60 FPN & 3 points or warn?
- Always court if poss, else FPN. Except making room for emergency vehicle

4) No insurance. Court, £200 FPN & 6 points or warn?
- Attempt to verify details. <1 week out, appears genuine mistake=warn
Reasonable technical misunderstanding = warn
All others: court/FPN (depends on apparent wealth of driver, fine should be >= 3 yrs ins.)

5) Tailgaing - Court or warn
- court. No excuses.

6) Speeding - nah second thoughts don't bother with that one, I think I already know
I think you do.

7) Drink driving. Obvious
- in exceptional circumstances... e.g. parked up at campsite, already asleep in car.. warning.

8) Stereo way too loud?
- NHS Leaflet re hearing damage. Likely local lads? Then 1 warning, 2nd hit = FPN Depends on when/where

9) Tyres below minimum tread depth?
- Depends how bad, and owner.... what course most likely to get compliance in future? E.g. if wealthy and stupid, lecture may do the trick...

regards
dave