Recruitment agencies...

[jamoor]

I placed an advert for some sales representatives, now we have no end of calls and emails with people conviniently having the perfect staff for us.

Now what is the deal here? The few that I have spoken to demand 20-30% fee for their candidates.

When I ask the question, what happens when I have paid the money and the person is no good, or leaves three months down the line, they seem to avoid the question.

Seems a total con to me, anyone had any experience of these/

[RichBurley]

That's REcruitment Agencies for you. They can have their place, but not always the rpeferred solution. If you've already gone to the effort of advertising for staff, then why suddenly change to use people through an agency, and pay (a lot of) money.

I'd just ensure that if you want to recruit personally, that you say "No Agencies" next time...

[jamoor]

RichBurley said:

That's REcruitment Agencies for you. They can have their place, but not always the rpeferred solution. If you've already gone to the effort of advertising for staff, then why suddenly change to use people through an agency, and pay (a lot of) money.

I'd just ensure that if you want to recruit personally, that you say "No Agencies" next time...

Yeah, I will remember that next time. I was just wondering what the deal was with these people as none of them would give me straight answers.
I have seen a couple of sites, monster.com, fish4 etc
anyone got any other job advertising methods?

[JustinP1]

jamoor said:

RichBurley said:

That's REcruitment Agencies for you. They can have their place, but not always the rpeferred solution. If you've already gone to the effort of advertising for staff, then why suddenly change to use people through an agency, and pay (a lot of) money.

I'd just ensure that if you want to recruit personally, that you say "No Agencies" next time...

Yeah, I will remember that next time. I was just wondering what the deal was with these people as none of them would give me straight answers.
I have seen a couple of sites, monster.com, fish4 etc
anyone got any other job advertising methods?

The deal is with most of them that within X amount of time you get X refund on a sliding scale up to 6 months where you get nothing and they take their £4000 finders fee!

Be very careful, there is a very large 'conflict of interest' here. A lot of agencies are reasonably small so the 'salesmen' have a vested interest, and even where not, they are heavily commission based.

Put it this way... If they give you a great employee who stays with you for 10 years they get paid once.

If they give you someone average they 'sell' to you, they still get paid once. If you end up sacking them they still get paid, and probably back to the agencies books for another chump.

If, for example the employee after you accept them wanted to confidentially stay on the agencies books, then there is nothing stopping them getting a job with you, then leaving 6 months later for another job with the same agency, for more money, and a second, but even larger payday for the agency.

I have found though that it is really a buyers market - you just need to make YOU the buyer. If you want to use them, name your own terms and what YOU are prepared to pay. Often, if there are some costs involved as they will advertise your job they will have a minimum they need to make...

...but, if they already have someone on the books it has cost them nothing apart from the phone call to you! If you make it clear that you are willing to pay X, or you will go elsewhere, they are at a hiding to nothing.

When I negotiated with them, what they accepted X to be was in fact a quarter of their standard rate to the point where using them was about the same cost of the hassle of advertising a job.

In effect they accepted a fee in the hundreds, not thousands, but all the value they had added was to have the employee on their books for a few days, so they could hardly suggest they added much value to the process!

Edited by JustinP1 on Tuesday 11th September 23:33

[hab1966]

RichBurley said:

I'd just ensure that if you want to recruit personally, that you say "No Agencies" next time...

We are looking to fill a position and have a number of adverts placed, all stating no agencies. Ive had no end of agencies phoning/emailing to offer me the ideal candidate.

[RichBurley]

hab1966 said:

RichBurley said:

I'd just ensure that if you want to recruit personally, that you say "No Agencies" next time...

We are looking to fill a position and have a number of adverts placed, all stating no agencies. Ive had no end of agencies phoning/emailing to offer me the ideal candidate.

Yeah, it won't stop them contacting you, but it WILL give you the right to be angry when they call!!!!

[SLacKer]

Hi

Had some experience with an IT agency a few years back. Put it this way after the ripoff they were we installed phone recording software/hardware. The pack of lies told to us about having all the references and qualification proof was just unreal and basically they pissed around so much the very short get out period was gone.

Slimey, over priced, over rated crooks.

The REC are useless as well as we spent over a year writing letters about how this agency had contravined their standards of business and they could not give a toss.

Use the paper and do the internet jobsites and forget agencies.

[jamoor]

SLacKer said:

Hi

Had some experience with an IT agency a few years back. Put it this way after the ripoff they were we installed phone recording software/hardware. The pack of lies told to us about having all the references and qualification proof was just unreal and basically they pissed around so much the very short get out period was gone.

Slimey, over priced, over rated crooks.

The REC are useless as well as we spent over a year writing letters about how this agency had contravined their standards of business and they could not give a toss.

Use the paper and do the internet jobsites and forget agencies.

Exactly what I was thinking, how on earth can anyone pay 30% of someones salary for merely pointing at a person.

I was talking to one of them and kept asking him questions he couldn't answer.

You are better than me advertising on the internet because.....?
I can't do this because....?
You are better at doing this at me because...?

He claimed he had been doing this a long time, I asked how long, he said since 2001!!!!
How on earth is 6 years a long time??

[j-man]

They are not all bad...

[jamoor]

j-man said:

They are not all bad...

Go on then, spill the beans

[oola]

Mmm seems like an aweful lot of bias against rercuitment businesses on here, but as I worked in the industry for a 'long time' (12 years ... and yes, 6 years IS a long time in recruitment) then I can undertand your frustrations.

There are a lot of poor recruitment businesses out there who are out to perform 'smash & grab' recruitment techiques .... they have no interest in the candidate remaining with your business, they just want the fee.

There are also a lot of good recruitment businesses out there which have an interest in developing a long term relationship with you. There is no benefit in placing a poor quality candidate with you ... they should offer a decent rebate period of 3 months or so, so that if there are any issues, you can get a 'free replacement'.

Remember, you are paying for an 'introduction service', not for a person! Any decent recuitment business should prescreen all candidates, intrviewing them all and providing the client with as much info as possible, prior to a client meeting the candidate.

The best way to approach the situation is to get a beauty parade ... see 3 or 4 agencies, choose a couple to work with on reduced terms (15% - 18%)assess your advert response alongside the agencies best candidates. From this, you can pick the best person for the job rather than the cheapest.

Going forward, it is the responsibility of the client and their internal recruitment systems & procedures to establish whether they proceed with any candidates.

[oola]

JustinP1 said:

jamoor said:

RichBurley said:

That's REcruitment Agencies for you. They can have their place, but not always the rpeferred solution. If you've already gone to the effort of advertising for staff, then why suddenly change to use people through an agency, and pay (a lot of) money.

I'd just ensure that if you want to recruit personally, that you say "No Agencies" next time...

Yeah, I will remember that next time. I was just wondering what the deal was with these people as none of them would give me straight answers.
I have seen a couple of sites, monster.com, fish4 etc
anyone got any other job advertising methods?

The deal is with most of them that within X amount of time you get X refund on a sliding scale up to 6 months where you get nothing and they take their £4000 finders fee!

Be very careful, there is a very large 'conflict of interest' here. A lot of agencies are reasonably small so the 'salesmen' have a vested interest, and even where not, they are heavily commission based.

Put it this way... If they give you a great employee who stays with you for 10 years they get paid once.

If they give you someone average they 'sell' to you, they still get paid once. If you end up sacking them they still get paid, and probably back to the agencies books for another chump.

--- But its the clients decision on who to recruit ... why would you employ an 'average person'?

If, for example the employee after you accept them wanted to confidentially stay on the agencies books, then there is nothing stopping them getting a job with you, then leaving 6 months later for another job with the same agency, for more money, and a second, but even larger payday for the agency.

---Beleive it or not, that very rarely happens. Of course, people do leave, but they tend to not want to break a relationshp with an agency, so will use a different one to move.

I have found though that it is really a buyers market - you just need to make YOU the buyer. If you want to use them, name your own terms and what YOU are prepared to pay. Often, if there are some costs involved as they will advertise your job they will have a minimum they need to make...

...but, if they already have someone on the books it has cost them nothing apart from the phone call to you! If you make it clear that you are willing to pay X, or you will go elsewhere, they are at a hiding to nothing.

--- How can this cost nothing apart from the cost of a phone call?? How was the candidate attracted? Through an agency advert? Via the Internet? Did a consultant interview and pre-screen them? Good candidates dont grow on trees, they need to be attracted through advertising, marketing, networking etc .... new quality candidates are the lifeblood. The costs charged by advertisers for recruitment businesses are very high ... some industry magazines cost £8k per page ... The Sunday Times is probably well over £100k per PAGE!!!!!

When I negotiated with them, what they accepted X to be was in fact a quarter of their standard rate to the point where using them was about the same cost of the hassle of advertising a job.

--- I would question any business which is prepared to offer its goods/services for a quarter of their original price .... how can you possibly make a living/profit?! To you it may seem 'expensive' but I'm sure your goods/services do to your clients .... we'd all like to pay less for everything.

My advice is don't over negotiate a very cheap deal with an agency unless you're prepared to forfeit a rebate.

In effect they accepted a fee in the hundreds, not thousands, but all the value they had added was to have the employee on their books for a few days, so they could hardly suggest they added much value to the process!

Edited by JustinP1 on Tuesday 11th September 23:33

[taffyracer]

One of my employees left giving really short notice, they went through an agency to seek new employment and then that agency phoned me up saying they heard I had a vacant position, cheeky barstewards

[dcb]

oola said:

Remember, you are paying for an 'introduction service', not for a person! Any decent recuitment business should prescreen all candidates, intrviewing them all and providing the client with as much info as possible, prior to a client meeting the candidate.

In the twenty odd years I've been dealing with agencies,
not one, mark it not one, agency, out of hundreds I've dealt with,
has ever asked me for a face to face interview before presenting
my CV to a client.

An occasional telephone chat is about it in my
experience.

[dilbert]

dcb said:

oola said:

Remember, you are paying for an 'introduction service', not for a person! Any decent recuitment business should prescreen all candidates, intrviewing them all and providing the client with as much info as possible, prior to a client meeting the candidate.

In the twenty odd years I've been dealing with agencies,
not one, mark it not one, agency, out of hundreds I've dealt with,
has ever asked me for a face to face interview before presenting
my CV to a client.

An occasional telephone chat is about it in my
experience.

The only time I ever experienced an agency that wanted to do this, they were asking for my NI number, my Passport Number, Bank Account Number e.t.c, all up front by fax!

[oola]

dcb said:

oola said:

Remember, you are paying for an 'introduction service', not for a person! Any decent recuitment business should prescreen all candidates, intrviewing them all and providing the client with as much info as possible, prior to a client meeting the candidate.

In the twenty odd years I've been dealing with agencies,
not one, mark it not one, agency, out of hundreds I've dealt with,
has ever asked me for a face to face interview before presenting
my CV to a client.

An occasional telephone chat is about it in my
experience.

That is bad practice on their behalf and usually much dependant on the industry you're in. I've worked in Sales, Finance & HR recruitment and only in certain logistical circumstances we would not hold a face to face interview. In that case, they would be telephone interview and the client would be made aware of this.

[JustinP1]

oola said:

JustinP1 said:

jamoor said:

RichBurley said:

That's REcruitment Agencies for you. They can have their place, but not always the rpeferred solution. If you've already gone to the effort of advertising for staff, then why suddenly change to use people through an agency, and pay (a lot of) money.

I'd just ensure that if you want to recruit personally, that you say "No Agencies" next time...

Yeah, I will remember that next time. I was just wondering what the deal was with these people as none of them would give me straight answers.
I have seen a couple of sites, monster.com, fish4 etc
anyone got any other job advertising methods?

The deal is with most of them that within X amount of time you get X refund on a sliding scale up to 6 months where you get nothing and they take their £4000 finders fee!

Be very careful, there is a very large 'conflict of interest' here. A lot of agencies are reasonably small so the 'salesmen' have a vested interest, and even where not, they are heavily commission based.

Put it this way... If they give you a great employee who stays with you for 10 years they get paid once.

If they give you someone average they 'sell' to you, they still get paid once. If you end up sacking them they still get paid, and probably back to the agencies books for another chump.

--- But its the clients decision on who to recruit ... why would you employ an 'average person'?

If, for example the employee after you accept them wanted to confidentially stay on the agencies books, then there is nothing stopping them getting a job with you, then leaving 6 months later for another job with the same agency, for more money, and a second, but even larger payday for the agency.

---Beleive it or not, that very rarely happens. Of course, people do leave, but they tend to not want to break a relationshp with an agency, so will use a different one to move.

I have found though that it is really a buyers market - you just need to make YOU the buyer. If you want to use them, name your own terms and what YOU are prepared to pay. Often, if there are some costs involved as they will advertise your job they will have a minimum they need to make...

...but, if they already have someone on the books it has cost them nothing apart from the phone call to you! If you make it clear that you are willing to pay X, or you will go elsewhere, they are at a hiding to nothing.

--- How can this cost nothing apart from the cost of a phone call?? How was the candidate attracted? Through an agency advert? Via the Internet? Did a consultant interview and pre-screen them? Good candidates dont grow on trees, they need to be attracted through advertising, marketing, networking etc .... new quality candidates are the lifeblood. The costs charged by advertisers for recruitment businesses are very high ... some industry magazines cost £8k per page ... The Sunday Times is probably well over £100k per PAGE!!!!!

When I negotiated with them, what they accepted X to be was in fact a quarter of their standard rate to the point where using them was about the same cost of the hassle of advertising a job.

--- I would question any business which is prepared to offer its goods/services for a quarter of their original price .... how can you possibly make a living/profit?! To you it may seem 'expensive' but I'm sure your goods/services do to your clients .... we'd all like to pay less for everything.

My advice is don't over negotiate a very cheap deal with an agency unless you're prepared to forfeit a rebate.

In effect they accepted a fee in the hundreds, not thousands, but all the value they had added was to have the employee on their books for a few days, so they could hardly suggest they added much value to the process!

Edited by JustinP1 on Tuesday 11th September 23:33

Its all relative, and without getting into economic theory too deeply, its all about investment and value added.

I am every week sent letters and emails from agencies I have dealt with telling me that 'just in case' I was looking for someone they have 4, 5 or six new people that 'might' be what I was looking for who have *just come on their books*.

Of course, you can spread their overheads out per 'deal' and work out what it cost to place someone, but my experience is in especially the 'lower end' of recruitment at the £9k to £15k range the average quality of the CVs I was sent I believe was no better than if I had literally stopped people on the street.

Now, if I were recruiting for a £50k (or more) job with specialist skills and it would cost me maybe £5 - £10k or more to place a national ad or specific skillset then of course if an agency could give me the option of interviewing people built for the role for the same amount of outlay then this is a value to the employer. Indeed, the cost of being able to get someone like that on your books for an agency and deal with the higher end clients is more costly, but the key is the 'value' aspect.

The dealings I have had I have been sent CVs with a skillset with little more benefits of a school-leaver and up to a couple of years experience. If it costs me £3000 to recruit someone like that from an agency then this really isnt good value IMHO.

Indeed, when I specified a skill set and requirements for a hopefully long term employment there was a strange amount of CVs from 'specially selected' potential employees who had spent 2 or three of the last summers working abroad...

...now that doesnt seem like a company who has *my* best interests at heart, rather to them this is a profit of £3k each year!


I know there is certainly a place for agencies, don't get me wrong, but my personal experience is that they don't offer particularly good value for money to smaller businesses and they can especially get 'stung' by the fact that by sheer concept the agencies financial best interests clash with those of their clients.

[RichBurley]

At the end of the day, people are only human, and a person that comes through an agency isn't necessarily going to be any better than a person from a direct advert; it's the same bunch of people looking for the same jobs!

Except appointing directly is cheaper, as there is no "middle man" fee. I have never had an interview with an agency before having my CV put forwrads, and perhaps 8 or 10 agencies have "acted" for me over the years, as an employee. Quite frankly though, as an employee, I think it's absurd that employers can waste money on agency fees, and now as an employer, I shan't ever look to throw money away by using an agency. My personal view.

Yes, there are Recruitment Agenst on here, but so what? The services they provide are unnecessary, expensive and Agents are almost always on low basic, high commission in order to encourage a "pro active" sales pitch in placing candidates. And the bottom line is yes, they will try and find the right candidate, but if the right one isn't available, they will put forward the nearest thing they can find.