GT cars now vs those past
Discussion
Plus the current GT3 cars are "performance equalised" to the same level, I'm sure most of the grid would be faster given free reign and a wider choice of tyre.
(Also, what are the actual time differences between the old GT1 monsters and the current GT3 cars? Perhaps the gap isn't as much as it would first appear, much like how the modern WRC shopping cars are quicker over the ground than the "so fast they were banned" GroupB cars from the '80s).
(Also, what are the actual time differences between the old GT1 monsters and the current GT3 cars? Perhaps the gap isn't as much as it would first appear, much like how the modern WRC shopping cars are quicker over the ground than the "so fast they were banned" GroupB cars from the '80s).
"Diet GTs" when the budgets got silly and the teams ran out of money or moved on. It has happened to lots of national series and those that don't adapt will die out. BGT has adapted and has healthy grids as a result. The equivalent of those big GTs are now an endagered species, with a small number of GT1 cars being around.
Someone will always push the boundaries too far in a class and make it too expensive so eventually everyone else leaves.
Someone will always push the boundaries too far in a class and make it too expensive so eventually everyone else leaves.
dougc said:
Slight hi-jack but I was wondering last night - when and why did the British GT championship so from hairy scary (Viper, Speed12, F1, 911GT1, Lister, XJ220 etc) to the 'diet' GTs that we have today?
Those races were bon...it was good when the Cerbera Speed 12 was racing the Listers and Dodges on GTon4. Ahh, them were the days. Now it's just boring bloody Fords...versus boring Fiats. 
deevlash said:
the fia killed gt bracing as it was getting nore popular than f1 in the late 80's early 90's iirc.
That's cuz F1 is bloody shite. It's possibly one of the most boring things on TV alongside horse races! They all look the same, they bear no relation to real cars, and it's all rigged by teams anyway, what is the point!?renkadima said:
And bloody boring Ascaris, and bloody boring Lambos, and bloody boring Dodges, and bloody boring Porsches, and bloody boring Moslers....
Are you sure you're watching the right series? One thing it isn't this year is boring.
I think I have made my views on Lamborghini, Dodge and Porsche quite clear in other threads.... :-PAre you sure you're watching the right series? One thing it isn't this year is boring.
GrahamG said:
hat aboutr your thoughts on Marcos, Mosler, Morgan, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Lotus, Ginetta? Are you looking for a car show or racing then?
well said...GT3 has just proved itself to be just as expencive (if more more so) that what came before and at the end of the day, contrived (as in who shouted the loudest etc.)
I love GT racing, but what we have now just isn't it, and if SRO get their way and wreck GT-1 and GT2 in the same way GT-3 is run, then we might as well just give up.
it's all very well saying we have X number of makes etc etc, but that's just pointless, without *proper* tech regs, the cars are all built to what they think they can (1) get away with, or (2) think they can convince the customer to pay for.
what we have now is a situation where the winner is the person/car with the best handicap, I ask you, is that Motorsport? might as well do the same to F1, five Fararri and McLaren 50+Kg's more than spiker and be done with it?
Truck,
Are you telling me that a WRC car can out-pace Hannu or Stig in one of these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJjBzSKN7LE
I DON'T THINK SO.
Phil
79 De Tomaso Longchamp GTS
Are you telling me that a WRC car can out-pace Hannu or Stig in one of these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJjBzSKN7LE
I DON'T THINK SO.
Phil
79 De Tomaso Longchamp GTS
Scuffers have you watched any British GT this year? The handicapping isn't perfect but different cars have been quick at different circuits and the top 5 qualifiers in race 1 at Rockingham were different marques of car. The racing has been far better this year than last and the aero kit on the Porsche was being made to work by Tech 9 at the end of the season (podium at Rockingham). The cars cost less than the GT2 cars did, yes they aren't cheap by any stretch of the imagination, but the fixed (to a point) spec of the cars reduces ongoing costs too.
Now admitedly that hasn't worked out quite as promised, with the Fezza and Porsche having big upgrade packages, but I bet that pales into insignificance next to what someone like Ecosse spent on souping up their GT2 car. I don't understand your point about no regs, the cars have a strictly defined homologation document and they can't go outside of that, how is that not having proper regs?
Now admitedly that hasn't worked out quite as promised, with the Fezza and Porsche having big upgrade packages, but I bet that pales into insignificance next to what someone like Ecosse spent on souping up their GT2 car. I don't understand your point about no regs, the cars have a strictly defined homologation document and they can't go outside of that, how is that not having proper regs?
dino ferrana said:
Scuffers have you watched any British GT this year? The handicapping isn't perfect but different cars have been quick at different circuits and the top 5 qualifiers in race 1 at Rockingham were different marques of car. The racing has been far better this year than last and the aero kit on the Porsche was being made to work by Tech 9 at the end of the season (podium at Rockingham). The cars cost less than the GT2 cars did, yes they aren't cheap by any stretch of the imagination, but the fixed (to a point) spec of the cars reduces ongoing costs too.
Now admitedly that hasn't worked out quite as promised, with the Fezza and Porsche having big upgrade packages, but I bet that pales into insignificance next to what someone like Ecosse spent on souping up their GT2 car. I don't understand your point about no regs, the cars have a strictly defined homologation document and they can't go outside of that, how is that not having proper regs?
Yes, I have watched all the races, and no I dissagree, think tyres, change in handicaps, change in driver linups, etc etc etc....Now admitedly that hasn't worked out quite as promised, with the Fezza and Porsche having big upgrade packages, but I bet that pales into insignificance next to what someone like Ecosse spent on souping up their GT2 car. I don't understand your point about no regs, the cars have a strictly defined homologation document and they can't go outside of that, how is that not having proper regs?
as for Homologation paperwork, that's hardly the same as tech regs is it? the manufacture can put what they like in the homologation document, and anybody with half a brain will put in enough to make the car plenty fast enough...the ones that got caught out were the 911's, as the car already exsisted in it's GT3 form before all this silly stuff happened.
Scuffers said:
Yes, I have watched all the races, and no I dissagree, think tyres, change in handicaps, change in driver linups, etc etc etc....
As someone who has competed in British GT (as an engineer) since 2000, I will say that this year has been the best by far for racing. Ignore the nonsense surrounding tyres and handicaps for a mo (and let's face it, I have more to complain about than most on that side), we have had way more winners and podium visitors than ever before. There have been fantastic scraps up and down the field, with the cars' differing strengths in different areas contributing to the spectacle.The downsides? It isn't as good as Belcar (which I'm also involved with) yet, but that's down to the tyres and the stupid one hour races which everyone in the paddock dislikes (but no one at the SRO seems to understand). We really, really need Michelin or Dunlop soon, so that the cars can drive like racing cars again.
This year we've had a great variety of cars and barely any makeweights, so the strength in depth is good. Give us ten more cars for next year and a better tyre (come on Avon - you can do it) and we'll have one heck of a race series.
Scuffers said:
as for Homologation paperwork, that's hardly the same as tech regs is it? the manufacture can put what they like in the homologation document, and anybody with half a brain will put in enough to make the car plenty fast enough...the ones that got caught out were the 911's, as the car already exsisted in it's GT3 form before all this silly stuff happened.
You've used that argument before, but that's the way GT3 works - so you either enter it or you don't. If BGT had Britcar 'rules' the budgets could become astronomical because anyone with half a brain can drive a bus through the regs. You could turn up with a car from the Japanese Super GT series if you want, for example - and I guarantee you that would be slightly quicker than a 996 Cup 
.You mentioned, earlier, that GT3 budgets were expensive, but I can honestly assure you they're not. Our GT3 engine is less than half the price of our GT2 engine (and only one third that of a decent M3 GTR engine) - and has much longer hours. You simply can't spend masses of money in GT3 because the rules don't allow it, whereas in GT1/GT2 you can spend as much as you like - and ALMS shows us that the sky's the limit where that's concerned.
Ahonen said:
You've used that argument before, but that's the way GT3 works - so you either enter it or you don't. If BGT had Britcar 'rules' the budgets could become astronomical because anyone with half a brain can drive a bus through the regs. You could turn up with a car from the Japanese Super GT series if you want, for example - and I guarantee you that would be slightly quicker than a 996 Cup .
I don't dissagree, Britcar regs are certainly not up to it from that perspective....I think you will find GT1/2 regs are somewhat more robust though.
The issue I see is that were will it end, every year you have people winging on about their handicaps, they get adjusted, some cars get faster, the others have to catch up, the costs go though the roof, where does it end?
To bring this back down to BGT level, yes, Cup class was hardly a level playing field (personally can't belive how much cheating was going on), but at least it had a level set in the regs (P/W).
ive been in both old and new racing vipers and have watched the old race the new, the newer Compe Coupes that the teams are running now are much faster than the circa 1999 models that were tearing up Lemans. Better techonology in them i guess, as the horse power hasnt increased that much
Not only are they faster but they're cheaper too, you can buy a brand new viper race ready straight from the factory for around $140K
Not only are they faster but they're cheaper too, you can buy a brand new viper race ready straight from the factory for around $140K
Edited by Viper on Wednesday 3rd October 22:36
Gassing Station | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff