safety car restarts...hmm
Discussion
after watching the shinanagins of Hamilton and others after a restart I think there needs to be some clarity on the matter of what is allowed / safe and what is not.
I think that if you are the leader then yes, its up to you how you go about the restart, in terms of speed etc, but once you build up pace after the lights go out on the safety car, you should not be able to slow down again, ( save for an emergancy of course)
I think the stop start bullshit is crap, and is probably part of why vettel had his crash with webber, stop starting at close range in the wet with no brake lights is a C***nts trick and does not imho demonstrate good or reasonable driving.
discuss
I think that if you are the leader then yes, its up to you how you go about the restart, in terms of speed etc, but once you build up pace after the lights go out on the safety car, you should not be able to slow down again, ( save for an emergancy of course)
I think the stop start bullshit is crap, and is probably part of why vettel had his crash with webber, stop starting at close range in the wet with no brake lights is a C***nts trick and does not imho demonstrate good or reasonable driving.
discuss
I thought the idea was squirt of power to warm the tyres, anchor up to warm the brakes. They all do it to a greater or lesser degree. I thought the Webber crash was him braking whilst Vettel acelerated. Lack of synchronisation was the cause just bad luck really.
Edited by Smart roadster on Monday 1st October 13:41
It's up to the race director to decide whether or not to change the light to green on the start/finish. If he thinks the rolling re-start is not okay then he simply keeps the light on red and they have to stop, or he has a flashing yellow to make them abort the re-start and wait for the safety car again.
Smart roadster said:
I thought the idea was squirt of power to warm the tyres, anchor up to warm the brakes. They all do it to a greater or lesser degree. I thought the Webber crash was him braking whilst Vettel acelerated. Lack of synchronisation was the cause just bad luck really.
Precisely. The cars need to be accelerating hard and then slamming on the brakes to keep heat in them, otherwise they don't work properly. This is made worse when going slowly in the wet, so they have to do the stop-starting more often.Edited by Smart roadster on Monday 1st October 13:41
A similar thing happened to Button at Monza a few years ago (albeit in the dry); he simply got caught out by the cars ahead slowing down.
Vettel whinging about Hamilton is just that- whinging. If he'd been paying attention (and a decent enough gap to the car in front or to one side of the car in front), he wouldn't have smashed himself and Webber out of the race. Webber had a better way of putting it when asked on live telly, along the lines of "you put kids in the cars and they f*ck it up"
Wet or dry the drivers tend to warm their brakes on a restart. They do it every formation lap of every Grand Prix. Why should it suddenly be an issue, unless you're the no-brainer who crashed, of course.
Wet or dry the drivers tend to warm their brakes on a restart. They do it every formation lap of every Grand Prix. Why should it suddenly be an issue, unless you're the no-brainer who crashed, of course.
toomuchbeer said:
I agree, LH stopping (almost) then setting off and stopping again is not safe IMHO.
Safer than restarting with cold brakes and tyres though.Hamilton did over do the stop/starting game on the initial restart IMO. Not very fair, but then it did make me chuckle seeing him toying with Alonso like that after the start of the last GP.
The thing is if the leader did not keep backing up the field like that he would leave himself open to the second place driver getting a jump on him more often than not.
jacobyte said:
Smart roadster said:
I thought the idea was squirt of power to warm the tyres, anchor up to warm the brakes. They all do it to a greater or lesser degree. I thought the Webber crash was him braking whilst Vettel acelerated. Lack of synchronisation was the cause just bad luck really.
Precisely. The cars need to be accelerating hard and then slamming on the brakes to keep heat in them, otherwise they don't work properly. This is made worse when going slowly in the wet, so they have to do the stop-starting more often.Edited by Smart roadster on Monday 1st October 13:41
A similar thing happened to Button at Monza a few years ago (albeit in the dry); he simply got caught out by the cars ahead slowing down.
As for vettel and webber, It could well be that they were just unlucky, ie 1 on the brakes as the other is on the loud pedal, however this is all the more reason to establish a protocol.
These are racing drivers trying to outsmart each other, not Doris and Dorothy trying to avoid a bump in Tescos car park. If Vettel was naive enough to do what he was doing in those conditions he should have the balls to stand up and be counted.
What are you going to propse next? Overtaking only on the left?
What are you going to propse next? Overtaking only on the left?
If theres nothing in the rules to stop something from happening these guys will do it. Just because no one else does this doesn't mean he shouldn't.
Its abit like when hamilton got lifted back on track, Was he being unfair? or just thinking of something that others weren't? Personally i think he did well to consider that he could be lifted back on to track were other may have got out, had a paddy and walked back to the pits.
Its abit like when hamilton got lifted back on track, Was he being unfair? or just thinking of something that others weren't? Personally i think he did well to consider that he could be lifted back on to track were other may have got out, had a paddy and walked back to the pits.
spectatorsam said:
jacobyte said:
Smart roadster said:
I thought the idea was squirt of power to warm the tyres, anchor up to warm the brakes. They all do it to a greater or lesser degree. I thought the Webber crash was him braking whilst Vettel acelerated. Lack of synchronisation was the cause just bad luck really.
Precisely. The cars need to be accelerating hard and then slamming on the brakes to keep heat in them, otherwise they don't work properly. This is made worse when going slowly in the wet, so they have to do the stop-starting more often.A similar thing happened to Button at Monza a few years ago (albeit in the dry); he simply got caught out by the cars ahead slowing down.
As for vettel and webber, It could well be that they were just unlucky, ie 1 on the brakes as the other is on the loud pedal, however this is all the more reason to establish a protocol.
ETA: There is no need to establish a protocol. Just use your head and expect the car ahead to be slamming his anchors on at any time.
Edited by jacobyte on Monday 1st October 17:16
10 Pence Short said:
These are racing drivers trying to outsmart each other, not Doris and Dorothy trying to avoid a bump in Tescos car park. If Vettel was naive enough to do what he was doing in those conditions he should have the balls to stand up and be counted.
What are you going to propse next? Overtaking only on the left?
Its been brewing for a while, and in the wet its a recipe for a collision. And you know who started it?What are you going to propse next? Overtaking only on the left?
Anyone remember Monaco about 3 years ago? Under the safety car Schumacher was running the stop-start nonsense, in the tunnel of all places. He was comprehensively collected by Montoya, who had only every done oh, 500 or so safety car starts in his life before.
The pics of him afterwards were great, he was torn between "What the
was that all about?" and "I'll punch his ing lights out".SS7
Edited by shoestring7 on Monday 1st October 17:55
10 Pence Short said:
These are racing drivers trying to outsmart each other, not Doris and Dorothy trying to avoid a bump in Tescos car park. If Vettel was naive enough to do what he was doing in those conditions he should have the balls to stand up and be counted.
What are you going to propse next? Overtaking only on the left?
no not at all What are you going to propse next? Overtaking only on the left?
ps vettel did stand up to be counted, I think however that this was avoidable and should be in the future
spectatorsam said:
but this is not what happened here, LH was playing a game of cat and mouse, this was in no way a brake warming excersize. I understand the point about warming the brakes up, but surely the safety car lights going off is a que to start running with one foot riding the brakes to induce heat. they seem to glow quick enough when applied at the end of a strait, sorry can't accept your explanation..
As for vettel and webber, It could well be that they were just unlucky, ie 1 on the brakes as the other is on the loud pedal, however this is all the more reason to establish a protocol.
As for vettel and webber, It could well be that they were just unlucky, ie 1 on the brakes as the other is on the loud pedal, however this is all the more reason to establish a protocol.
touring fan said:
There are rules in other series, like the BTCC and Aussie V8's, which state that once a driver starts accelerating on a re-start then the driver cannot reduce their rate of acceleration.
Pretty simple and effective way of overcoming what happened.
But tin tops are nowhere near as heat/performance related as F1 brakes. You cannot simply ride the brakes for the last few corners. The heat generation is about dissipation of energy. With the energy you need to transform (and no not Optimus Prime kinda way Pretty simple and effective way of overcoming what happened.
) being proportional to velocity squared the glowing you get at the end of the Fuji straight simply can't be achieved anywhere else. The rate of dissipation of heat versus generation of brake temp, were you to ride the brakes, would be near equal, so you wouldn't achieve anything. They haven't done it this way for years for nothing!!
Edited by LaSarthe+Back on Monday 1st October 23:12
LaSarthe+Back said:
spectatorsam said:
but this is not what happened here, LH was playing a game of cat and mouse, this was in no way a brake warming excersize. I understand the point about warming the brakes up, but surely the safety car lights going off is a que to start running with one foot riding the brakes to induce heat. they seem to glow quick enough when applied at the end of a strait, sorry can't accept your explanation..
As for vettel and webber, It could well be that they were just unlucky, ie 1 on the brakes as the other is on the loud pedal, however this is all the more reason to establish a protocol.
As for vettel and webber, It could well be that they were just unlucky, ie 1 on the brakes as the other is on the loud pedal, however this is all the more reason to establish a protocol.
touring fan said:
There are rules in other series, like the BTCC and Aussie V8's, which state that once a driver starts accelerating on a re-start then the driver cannot reduce their rate of acceleration.
Pretty simple and effective way of overcoming what happened.
But tin tops are nowhere near as heat/performance related as F1 brakes. You cannot simply ride the brakes for the last few corners. The heat generation is about dissipation of energy. With the energy you need to transform (and no not Optimus Prime kinda way Pretty simple and effective way of overcoming what happened.
) being proportional to velocity squared the glowing you get at the end of the Fuji straight simply can't be achieved anywhere else. The rate of dissipation of heat versus generation of brake temp, were you to ride the brakes, would be near equal, so you wouldn't achieve anything. They haven't done it this way for years for nothing!!
Edited by LaSarthe+Back on Monday 1st October 23:12
Lewis was bating Alonso before the restart, but the Vettel Webber insident was not at the restart. The safety car was still out, so all this whining about stoping and starting before the restart has no bearing on the accident caused whilst heating tyres and brakes behind the safety car.
These guys are meant to be the best drivers in the world. If they can't handle the unexpected they why are they there? In the current rules framework that causes fairly processional races any bit of needle or interest between the drivers is a good thing IMO. We don't need more rules further neutering the racing.
ewenm said:
These guys are meant to be the best drivers in the world. If they can't handle the unexpected they why are they there? In the current rules framework that causes fairly processional races any bit of needle or interest between the drivers is a good thing IMO. We don't need more rules further neutering the racing.
Their not superhuman, the way Hamilton was messing about was bound to cause trouble, especially in all that spray.Gassing Station | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff