Blues and twos?
Discussion
Quick question for those of you in the know in this section, I have a '64 VW ambulance with roof mounted blue light and sirens. As I understand it at the minute, so long as the light is incapable of working I can legally drive with the blue cover showing? If I were to wire it up, I would have to drive with the blue glass covered? Right?
What's the legalities on the use of the sirens? I connected them up at the weekend so they now work. I'm guessing I'd also be in bother if I were to use them on the road?
Cheers.
What's the legalities on the use of the sirens? I connected them up at the weekend so they now work. I'm guessing I'd also be in bother if I were to use them on the road?
Cheers.
slammedvanman said:
Quick question for those of you in the know in this section, I have a '64 VW ambulance with roof mounted blue light and sirens. As I understand it at the minute, so long as the light is incapable of working I can legally drive with the blue cover showing? If I were to wire it up, I would have to drive with the blue glass covered? Right?
What's the legalities on the use of the sirens? I connected them up at the weekend so they now work. I'm guessing I'd also be in bother if I were to use them on the road?
Cheers.
Is the ambulance in "authentic" condition?What's the legalities on the use of the sirens? I connected them up at the weekend so they now work. I'm guessing I'd also be in bother if I were to use them on the road?
Cheers.
If so, you may be ok as it's a "Historic Vehicle" - providing it is registered as an Ambulance on the V5.
The magic words "not in service" help.
At that age, you won't have sirens - it'll be a two-tone of some sort surely?
As long as it doesn't have the magic word " P O L I C E " on it, and clearly says "A M B U L A N C E" on there somewhere, even if in Johnny Foreigner lingo. That also is a great warder-off of unwanted BiB attention.
They great fear is that someone may "pretend to be an officer of the law".
Yeah right, in a 1964 V-Dub Ambulance...
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si1989/Uksi_19891796_en_...
Regulation 16
Restrictions on fitting blue warning beacons, special warning lamps and similar devices
No vehicle, other than an emergency vehicle, shall be fitted with-
(a) a blue warning beacon or special warning lamp, or
(b) a device which resembles a blue warning beacon or a special warning lamp, whether the same is in working order or not.
Regulation 16
Restrictions on fitting blue warning beacons, special warning lamps and similar devices
No vehicle, other than an emergency vehicle, shall be fitted with-
(a) a blue warning beacon or special warning lamp, or
(b) a device which resembles a blue warning beacon or a special warning lamp, whether the same is in working order or not.
Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989
Restrictions on fitting blue warning beacons, special warning lamps and similar devices
Reg 16. No vehicle, other than an emergency vehicle, shall be fitted with-
(a) a blue warning beacon or special warning lamp, or
(b) a device which resembles a blue warning beacon or a special warning lamp, whether the same is in working order or not.
Defines:
Warning beacon as:
A lamp that is capable of emitting a flashing or rotating beam of light throughout 360° in the horizontal plane.
"Special warning lamp"
A lamp, fitted to the front or rear of a vehicle, capable of emitting a blue flashing light and not any other kind of light.
Reg 4 gives the exemption for a lamp not being a lamp if it is masked or covered over or has no elecrtical supply but this does not apply to Reg 16 (above)
Emergency Vehicle Defined:
A motor vehicle of any of the following descriptions-
(a) a vehicle used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes;
(b) an ambulance, being a vehicle (other than an invalid carriage) which is constructed or adapted for the purposes of conveying sick, injured or disabled persons and which is used for such purposes;
(Note the word 'used' at (a) and (b))
(c) a vehicle owned by a body formed primarily for the purposes of fire salvage and used for those or similar purposes;
(d) a vehicle owned by the Forestry Commission or by a local authority and used from time to time for the purposes of fighting fires;
(e) a vehicle owned by the Secretary of State for Defence and used-
(i) for the purposes of the disposal of bombs or explosives,
(ii) by the Naval Emergency Monitoring Organisation for the purposes of a nuclear accident or an incident involving radioactivity,
(iii) by the Royal Air Force Mountain Rescue Service for the purposes of rescue operations or any other emergencies, or
(iv) by the Royal Air Force Armament Support Unit;
(f) a vehicle primarily used for the purposes of the Blood Transfusion Service provided under the National Health Service Act 1977[8] or under the National Health Service (Scotland) Act 1978[9];
(g) a vehicle used by Her Majesty's Coastguard or Coastguard Auxiliary Service for the purposes of giving aid to persons in danger or vessels indistress on or near the coast;
(h) a vehicle owned by the British Coal Corporation and used for the purposes of rescue operations at mines;
(i) a vehicle owned by the Royal National Lifeboat Institution and used for the purposes of launching lifeboats; and
(j) a vehicle primarily used for the purposes of conveying any human tissue for transplanting or similar purposes.
So from this apparently illegal on what the Poster states.
However at the back of mind is a fact that 'historic/classic' vehicles are exempt from this but I cannot find that exemption.
Some of you may have seen the Ford Zephr Mk 3 ex Police vehicle 111.HAJ that has attended shows in the N.East with blue lamp. The owner has not been prosecuted so there must be something somewhere ??????
Looking at the site for Classic Cop Cars then as to why not prosecuted seems to be:
Police forces are happy for us to use these vehicles on the public road, provided that we cover any blue lights and the word POLICE to let the general public know that the vehicles are no longer in service.
Dvd
(Ps. Who for his sins used to drive 111HAJ)
Restrictions on fitting blue warning beacons, special warning lamps and similar devices
Reg 16. No vehicle, other than an emergency vehicle, shall be fitted with-
(a) a blue warning beacon or special warning lamp, or
(b) a device which resembles a blue warning beacon or a special warning lamp, whether the same is in working order or not.
Defines:
Warning beacon as:
A lamp that is capable of emitting a flashing or rotating beam of light throughout 360° in the horizontal plane.
"Special warning lamp"
A lamp, fitted to the front or rear of a vehicle, capable of emitting a blue flashing light and not any other kind of light.
Reg 4 gives the exemption for a lamp not being a lamp if it is masked or covered over or has no elecrtical supply but this does not apply to Reg 16 (above)
Emergency Vehicle Defined:
A motor vehicle of any of the following descriptions-
(a) a vehicle used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes;
(b) an ambulance, being a vehicle (other than an invalid carriage) which is constructed or adapted for the purposes of conveying sick, injured or disabled persons and which is used for such purposes;
(Note the word 'used' at (a) and (b))
(c) a vehicle owned by a body formed primarily for the purposes of fire salvage and used for those or similar purposes;
(d) a vehicle owned by the Forestry Commission or by a local authority and used from time to time for the purposes of fighting fires;
(e) a vehicle owned by the Secretary of State for Defence and used-
(i) for the purposes of the disposal of bombs or explosives,
(ii) by the Naval Emergency Monitoring Organisation for the purposes of a nuclear accident or an incident involving radioactivity,
(iii) by the Royal Air Force Mountain Rescue Service for the purposes of rescue operations or any other emergencies, or
(iv) by the Royal Air Force Armament Support Unit;
(f) a vehicle primarily used for the purposes of the Blood Transfusion Service provided under the National Health Service Act 1977[8] or under the National Health Service (Scotland) Act 1978[9];
(g) a vehicle used by Her Majesty's Coastguard or Coastguard Auxiliary Service for the purposes of giving aid to persons in danger or vessels indistress on or near the coast;
(h) a vehicle owned by the British Coal Corporation and used for the purposes of rescue operations at mines;
(i) a vehicle owned by the Royal National Lifeboat Institution and used for the purposes of launching lifeboats; and
(j) a vehicle primarily used for the purposes of conveying any human tissue for transplanting or similar purposes.
So from this apparently illegal on what the Poster states.
However at the back of mind is a fact that 'historic/classic' vehicles are exempt from this but I cannot find that exemption.
Some of you may have seen the Ford Zephr Mk 3 ex Police vehicle 111.HAJ that has attended shows in the N.East with blue lamp. The owner has not been prosecuted so there must be something somewhere ??????
Looking at the site for Classic Cop Cars then as to why not prosecuted seems to be:
Police forces are happy for us to use these vehicles on the public road, provided that we cover any blue lights and the word POLICE to let the general public know that the vehicles are no longer in service.
Dvd
(Ps. Who for his sins used to drive 111HAJ)
Thanks for the info people. So are those regulations guide lines or law? It would appear from them that I've been misinformed and shouldn't have the light on there full stop?
There's no markings to say it's police or ambulance, it was an ambulance '64 to '70 and then used by the voluntary fire brigade in Germany until '88. As you can see I'm definitely not trying to impersonate a police car:
The 'sirens' are indeed two tone horns, mounted on the front bumper. Any guidance as to the legalities of their use?
There's no markings to say it's police or ambulance, it was an ambulance '64 to '70 and then used by the voluntary fire brigade in Germany until '88. As you can see I'm definitely not trying to impersonate a police car:
The 'sirens' are indeed two tone horns, mounted on the front bumper. Any guidance as to the legalities of their use?
Motor Vehicle (Con and Use) Regs 1986
two-tone horn" means an instrument which, when operated, automatically produces a sound which alternates at regular intervals between two fixed notes.
Audible warning instruments
36. - (1) (a)
a motor vehicle which has a maximum speed of more than 20 mph shall be fitted with a horn, not being a reversing alarm or a two-tone horn;
Subject to paragraphs (5), (6) a motor vehicle SHALL NOT BE FITTED with a bell, gong, siren OR TWO TONE HORN.
(5) Paragraph (4) shall not apply to a vehicle -
(a) used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes;
(b) owned by a body formed primarily for the purposes of fire salvage and used for those or similar purposes;
(c) owned by the Department of Agriculture and used from time to time for the purposes of fighting fires;
(d) owned by the Secretary of State for Defence and used for the purposes of the disposal of bombs or explosives;
(e) used for the purposes of the Blood Transfusion Service under Article 10 of the Health and Personal Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1972[47];
(f) used by Her Majesty's Coastguard or the Coastguard Auxiliary Service to aid persons in danger or vessels in distress on or near the coast;
(g) owned by the Secretary of State for Defence and used by the Royal Air Force Mountain Rescue Service for the purposes of rescue operations in connection with crashed aircraft or any other emergencies;
(h) owned by the Royal National Lifeboat Institution and used for the purposes of launching lifeboats; or
(i) used as a cardiac response vehicle, being a vehicle used only for the purposes of transporting medical or nursing personnel and equipment to cardiac incidents.
(6) Paragraphs (2) and (4) shall not make it unlawful for a vehicle to be fitted with an instrument or apparatus (not being a two-tone horn) designed to emit a sound for the purpose of informing members of the public that goods on the vehicle are for sale.
Regarding your blue light looks as if Reg 16 is infringed in that state. Make a box to cover when on the road then no one will know.
dvd
two-tone horn" means an instrument which, when operated, automatically produces a sound which alternates at regular intervals between two fixed notes.
Audible warning instruments
36. - (1) (a)
a motor vehicle which has a maximum speed of more than 20 mph shall be fitted with a horn, not being a reversing alarm or a two-tone horn;
Subject to paragraphs (5), (6) a motor vehicle SHALL NOT BE FITTED with a bell, gong, siren OR TWO TONE HORN.
(5) Paragraph (4) shall not apply to a vehicle -
(a) used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes;
(b) owned by a body formed primarily for the purposes of fire salvage and used for those or similar purposes;
(c) owned by the Department of Agriculture and used from time to time for the purposes of fighting fires;
(d) owned by the Secretary of State for Defence and used for the purposes of the disposal of bombs or explosives;
(e) used for the purposes of the Blood Transfusion Service under Article 10 of the Health and Personal Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1972[47];
(f) used by Her Majesty's Coastguard or the Coastguard Auxiliary Service to aid persons in danger or vessels in distress on or near the coast;
(g) owned by the Secretary of State for Defence and used by the Royal Air Force Mountain Rescue Service for the purposes of rescue operations in connection with crashed aircraft or any other emergencies;
(h) owned by the Royal National Lifeboat Institution and used for the purposes of launching lifeboats; or
(i) used as a cardiac response vehicle, being a vehicle used only for the purposes of transporting medical or nursing personnel and equipment to cardiac incidents.
(6) Paragraphs (2) and (4) shall not make it unlawful for a vehicle to be fitted with an instrument or apparatus (not being a two-tone horn) designed to emit a sound for the purpose of informing members of the public that goods on the vehicle are for sale.
Regarding your blue light looks as if Reg 16 is infringed in that state. Make a box to cover when on the road then no one will know.
dvd
ing jobsworth if he does!If you actually did use the vehicle on occasions as an ambulance you could retain the blue light.
Some narrative from case law DPP V Hawkins 1996 (courtesy of the police legal database)
DPP v Hawkins
H was stopped whilst driving a white Volvo car which had been modified so that it could be used as an ambulance. It was fitted with an array of blue beacons in a bar across the roof, similar to those used by the emergency services. It was not switched on. H did use the vehicle for carrying injured people, but on this occasion it was being used to take a healthy child to school.
He was summonsed for having a blue beacon fitted to the vehicle contrary to regulation 16 of the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989. The prosecution maintained that the definition of 'emergency vehicle' (regulation 3) only allowed H to carry the blue lights when he was using the vehicle as an ambulance. It states -
An emergency vehicle is (b) an ambulance, being a vehicle which is constructed or adapted for the purposes of conveying sick, injured or disabled persons and which is used for such purposes .
Regulation 4(4) goes on to state that if the lights are covered or masked in some way they cease to be lamps. It was the prosecution case that H should have covered his lights whilst the vehicle was being used for other purposes.
H argued that if the prosecution was correct, the wording above would say 'is being used for such purposes' which has a different meaning to 'is used for such purposes'. The actual wording allows a vehicle to be fitted with blue lights, as long as the vehicle is genuinely operated as an ambulance even if that was not it's use all the time.
The magistrates agreed with H and dismissed the case. The prosecution appealed.
HELD
Appeal dismissed. Acquittal upheld.
H did not commit this offence so long as one genuine purpose for the vehicle was it's use as an ambulance. It did not matter that it was not being put to that use at the time it was stopped. The magistrates reasoning was correct.
Notes
Looking closely at an extreme example based on this decision, a chairman of a small football club could make some minimal changes to his Range Rover so it could be used as an ambulance (e.g. installation of basic first aid equipment and re-arrangement of the rear seating). So long as he used it for a handful of home games through the season he could leave a blue light fitted to the vehicle all year round, but could only use the light for ambulance emergencies, otherwise he would contravene regulation 27). The regulation does not demand that beds are fitted into the vehicle - all that is required is that it be adapted to take people who are poorly.
HTH
Some narrative from case law DPP V Hawkins 1996 (courtesy of the police legal database)
DPP v Hawkins
H was stopped whilst driving a white Volvo car which had been modified so that it could be used as an ambulance. It was fitted with an array of blue beacons in a bar across the roof, similar to those used by the emergency services. It was not switched on. H did use the vehicle for carrying injured people, but on this occasion it was being used to take a healthy child to school.
He was summonsed for having a blue beacon fitted to the vehicle contrary to regulation 16 of the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989. The prosecution maintained that the definition of 'emergency vehicle' (regulation 3) only allowed H to carry the blue lights when he was using the vehicle as an ambulance. It states -
An emergency vehicle is (b) an ambulance, being a vehicle which is constructed or adapted for the purposes of conveying sick, injured or disabled persons and which is used for such purposes .
Regulation 4(4) goes on to state that if the lights are covered or masked in some way they cease to be lamps. It was the prosecution case that H should have covered his lights whilst the vehicle was being used for other purposes.
H argued that if the prosecution was correct, the wording above would say 'is being used for such purposes' which has a different meaning to 'is used for such purposes'. The actual wording allows a vehicle to be fitted with blue lights, as long as the vehicle is genuinely operated as an ambulance even if that was not it's use all the time.
The magistrates agreed with H and dismissed the case. The prosecution appealed.
HELD
Appeal dismissed. Acquittal upheld.
H did not commit this offence so long as one genuine purpose for the vehicle was it's use as an ambulance. It did not matter that it was not being put to that use at the time it was stopped. The magistrates reasoning was correct.
Notes
Looking closely at an extreme example based on this decision, a chairman of a small football club could make some minimal changes to his Range Rover so it could be used as an ambulance (e.g. installation of basic first aid equipment and re-arrangement of the rear seating). So long as he used it for a handful of home games through the season he could leave a blue light fitted to the vehicle all year round, but could only use the light for ambulance emergencies, otherwise he would contravene regulation 27). The regulation does not demand that beds are fitted into the vehicle - all that is required is that it be adapted to take people who are poorly.
HTH
I may be Ok 
SS2. said:
Where's g_attrill ?ISTR that he has a liveried US cop car (with blues) which has attracted attention from UK BiB in the past..
edit: I posted on another forum at the time and somebody thought they knew who it was - I was amazed at her attitute, it was as if she was personally offended by the vehicle and offended I had the cheek to drive it around. The funniest bit was she said "What about the lights on the back?" me: "what lights? [she walks around the back and points] That is my fog lamp, and that is my reversing lamp..."
Anyway, my vehicle has a blue/red lightbar which is always covered by a large cloth, and the electrical supply is disconnected via terminal blocks under a central console (it needs a torx screwdriver and 15 minutes work to reconnect).
I have driven it around for five years with no problems, and been invited to several police-only shows.
That said, I was pulled over by the local police a few weeks ago, they just thought the cover wasn't fitted and let me continue straight away, strange because the officer said he has seen it around and I would have thought they know that I never ever drive it on the road uncovered. I am pretty sure I was too far away for it to have been an ANPR hit, I had done a U-turn at a roundabout (to avoid a dodgy right turn) so perhaps that piqued their interest.
Edited by g_attrill on Tuesday 9th October 13:39
DPX said:
So can someone start pulling these cars with blue LED washers / blue LED in sidelamps etc etc . I have even seen blue LED rear number plate lights , these do look like police cars at night from 100 meters.
I'm sure there will soon be some reining in of novelty lights in a future amendment of the lighting regs, especially with the fairly recent advent of very powerful LED lights. Until then, unless they are moving or flashing or in place of sidelamps, or visible to the rear, we can only really deal if they dazzle!
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