Help Balancing Throttle bodies!!!!
Discussion
I've got a bit of a problem with my Cerb.
It had a quite a bad miss fire a couple of weeks ago which was cured largely by replacing the coils, but since then it has also stated smoking from the left bank.
It started missing again slightly, I put this down to poorly connected HT leads as you cant hear the 'click' with the Magnecors. So I took them off and cut 2-3 mm off the black rubber bit that goes round the plugs. This made a big difference to the fit of the lead, it they now 'click' in to place.
The car ran soo much smoother, but not 100%, and it still smokes and smells terrible.
So I want to try checking the T.bodies for balancing, I have an old pc in the garage with software, but cant get it to read from the ecu.
Any one have any advice? or local to Romford care to get stuck in???
I'm going to go out and pull the plugs out from the near side bank to check their condition, just incase the knackered coils have caused the plugs to foul up. But want to check the balancing too.
I might try swapping the lambdas to see if this makes it smoke on the other side!!!
It had a quite a bad miss fire a couple of weeks ago which was cured largely by replacing the coils, but since then it has also stated smoking from the left bank.
It started missing again slightly, I put this down to poorly connected HT leads as you cant hear the 'click' with the Magnecors. So I took them off and cut 2-3 mm off the black rubber bit that goes round the plugs. This made a big difference to the fit of the lead, it they now 'click' in to place.
The car ran soo much smoother, but not 100%, and it still smokes and smells terrible.
So I want to try checking the T.bodies for balancing, I have an old pc in the garage with software, but cant get it to read from the ecu.
Any one have any advice? or local to Romford care to get stuck in???
I'm going to go out and pull the plugs out from the near side bank to check their condition, just incase the knackered coils have caused the plugs to foul up. But want to check the balancing too.
I might try swapping the lambdas to see if this makes it smoke on the other side!!!
Edited by Mad Mark on Friday 12th October 16:17
Cant help Mark sorry ... sorry shes playing you up ...
Mine in loads of bits .. no time too look at it and regretting starting now!
I had real concerns whe fitting magnacors as no click - sombody said wd40 them first
I had already hacked the boots on 2 of them and then wished I hadnt as still tight
- but wd40 did make them click but was worried abt wd40 on rubber then got to the stage of not caring!
Hope you sort her out soon ... mines now been left so long out of MOT as well ...joy
DAS
Mine in loads of bits .. no time too look at it and regretting starting now!
I had real concerns whe fitting magnacors as no click - sombody said wd40 them first
I had already hacked the boots on 2 of them and then wished I hadnt as still tight
- but wd40 did make them click but was worried abt wd40 on rubber then got to the stage of not caring!
Hope you sort her out soon ... mines now been left so long out of MOT as well ...joy
DAS
It smells rich and is not really there on tickover more so when accelerating (doesn't have to be hard either)
Cutting my leads back helped on mine 2-3 mm I think it started out at 2mm and ended up 3mm or so, as i got more confident at hacking away expensive leads. LOL
I removed all the plugs on the nearside (the smoking side) and they were all sooty and evenly so. I cleaned them up and will take it for a drive tomorrow.
I didn't have time to swap the lambdas over today so will do that tomorrow as well.
Cutting my leads back helped on mine 2-3 mm I think it started out at 2mm and ended up 3mm or so, as i got more confident at hacking away expensive leads. LOL
I removed all the plugs on the nearside (the smoking side) and they were all sooty and evenly so. I cleaned them up and will take it for a drive tomorrow.
I didn't have time to swap the lambdas over today so will do that tomorrow as well.
Mad Mark said:
It smells rich and is not really there on tickover more so when accelerating (doesn't have to be hard either)
Cutting my leads back helped on mine 2-3 mm I think it started out at 2mm and ended up 3mm or so, as i got more confident at hacking away expensive leads. LOL
I removed all the plugs on the nearside (the smoking side) and they were all sooty and evenly so. I cleaned them up and will take it for a drive tomorrow.
I didn't have time to swap the lambdas over today so will do that tomorrow as well.
Mark,Cutting my leads back helped on mine 2-3 mm I think it started out at 2mm and ended up 3mm or so, as i got more confident at hacking away expensive leads. LOL
I removed all the plugs on the nearside (the smoking side) and they were all sooty and evenly so. I cleaned them up and will take it for a drive tomorrow.
I didn't have time to swap the lambdas over today so will do that tomorrow as well.
You could try giving Joolz a call as he may be able to help?
Jules.
Check that your throttle pots haven't burnt out, symptoms are misfiring, smell of unburnt fuel, smoke, rubbish fuel consumption and at worst sagging oil pressure. This may be caused by the throttle pots themselves, but when I had it it was only cured by re-bushing the throttle bodies
Jasper Gilder said:
Check that your throttle pots haven't burnt out, symptoms are misfiring, smell of unburnt fuel, smoke, rubbish fuel consumption and at worst sagging oil pressure. This may be caused by the throttle pots themselves, but when I had it it was only cured by re-bushing the throttle bodies
Hmmm this is interesting! When I changed my coils a short while ago i checked the tightness of the T.bodies and some of the allen bolts were loose, only slightly, quarter turn maybe, but could be worth keeping in mind.
My fav theory is that when my coils went, all the unburned fuel has messed up the Lambda sensor in some way on that left bank!!
Is this possible?
All my plugs on that side were equally sooted up so I would say its not a lead or plug.
Here's 2 screen caps I took. As it was late I could only do it on idle.
Also after i disconnected everything I realised I had used the old software, not sure if the new one would be better??!!
Edited to add
I did notice when I was playing around with it earlier that if I took it off idle then there would be some movement in the lambda 2 but not 1.
This also seems to show up in the second pic!!???
Also after i disconnected everything I realised I had used the old software, not sure if the new one would be better??!!
Edited to add
I did notice when I was playing around with it earlier that if I took it off idle then there would be some movement in the lambda 2 but not 1.
This also seems to show up in the second pic!!???
Edited by Mad Mark on Saturday 13th October 23:07
methodwares said:
first thing i noticed was the water temperature and the ignition... car is not hot warm enough to give good adaptive readings off the map....
second thing... for a 4.5 at idle, the throttle pots are a bit high, especially tpot 1
Thanks for that. second thing... for a 4.5 at idle, the throttle pots are a bit high, especially tpot 1
It was starting to get late and couldn't warm the car without fear of my neighbour calling environmental health on me for noise and the smell. LOL
I'll get some warm ones up soon.
Which side is '1'? would that be the near side?
If that top light purple line is the battery then its showing some odd dips in voltage
(Or have I just never noticed it on mine )
Both banks running with significant extra fuel
35.7 is about max adaptation which does suggest a lambda problem or the engine is pulling way too much air
However the idle is way too low - should be around 950 - but likely because its cold
TPots aren't balanced but that may simply be because the engine is not up to temperature so the manifolds haven't expanded yet.
Agree they seem a bit high I believe 18 to 19 is the norm for a 4.5
I would suggest getting the engine up to temp and then taking a screen grab with the accelerator just open so that its taken up any play in the linkages
That will give you an idea of how balanced the TPots are when running normally
Then do the same with the throttle closed to get the readings at idle - if the difference between the TPot readings changes significantly then there is play in the linkages. In which case balance the TPot readings with the throttle slightly open and the play taken up (and get some rod ends to replace the ball joints)
Then do a couple of seconds trace at a few different engine speeds to give the lambdas something to do
If they aren't switching betwixt very close to 0 and 1.x then there is a problem with them
(Or have I just never noticed it on mine )
Both banks running with significant extra fuel
35.7 is about max adaptation which does suggest a lambda problem or the engine is pulling way too much air
However the idle is way too low - should be around 950 - but likely because its cold
TPots aren't balanced but that may simply be because the engine is not up to temperature so the manifolds haven't expanded yet.
Agree they seem a bit high I believe 18 to 19 is the norm for a 4.5
I would suggest getting the engine up to temp and then taking a screen grab with the accelerator just open so that its taken up any play in the linkages
That will give you an idea of how balanced the TPots are when running normally
Then do the same with the throttle closed to get the readings at idle - if the difference between the TPot readings changes significantly then there is play in the linkages. In which case balance the TPot readings with the throttle slightly open and the play taken up (and get some rod ends to replace the ball joints)
Then do a couple of seconds trace at a few different engine speeds to give the lambdas something to do
If they aren't switching betwixt very close to 0 and 1.x then there is a problem with them
Edited by mikesr on Sunday 14th October 11:24
Here are a couple of Hot Idle pics.
The car was brought to temp via tick over only, not sure if that effects anything or not.
(Unable to go for drive due to kids and unable to rev it due to neighbour
lol)
I did bring the revs up to 1500 rpm to check Marcus's suggestion and the readings of the T.bodies stayed constant 28 on 1 and 23 on 2.
(I couldn't get the screen grabs of that as my arms are mot long enough LOL)
While viewing the 'monitor' screen I blipped the throttle and didn't see Lambda 1 move at all.
The low idle started a while back when my manifolds were cracked, I put it down to this but since then the idle has not increased but I have been having various misfire probs since then too.
All related me thinks.
Thanks for your help so far guys
The car was brought to temp via tick over only, not sure if that effects anything or not.
(Unable to go for drive due to kids and unable to rev it due to neighbour
lol)I did bring the revs up to 1500 rpm to check Marcus's suggestion and the readings of the T.bodies stayed constant 28 on 1 and 23 on 2.
(I couldn't get the screen grabs of that as my arms are mot long enough LOL)
While viewing the 'monitor' screen I blipped the throttle and didn't see Lambda 1 move at all.
The low idle started a while back when my manifolds were cracked, I put it down to this but since then the idle has not increased but I have been having various misfire probs since then too.
All related me thinks.
Thanks for your help so far guys
Looks like lambda1 is duff.
With a warm engine they should both switch from 0 to 1v (approx) every couple of seconds.
With the faults you're seeing, it certainly points to a fuelling problem on one bank.
Check the connection isn't loose / melted before changing the probe.
Have you swapped the probes and moved the fault?
...shame they didn't use Ford sensors - I've got a drawer full at work!
With a warm engine they should both switch from 0 to 1v (approx) every couple of seconds.
With the faults you're seeing, it certainly points to a fuelling problem on one bank.
Check the connection isn't loose / melted before changing the probe.
Have you swapped the probes and moved the fault?
...shame they didn't use Ford sensors - I've got a drawer full at work!
Was the air temp really 32 celcius?
I had really rough running that was caused by filthy coolant temp contacts.
Possibly would get the same issue if the air temp sensor was giving wild readings (by wild I mean varying from 10 to 35 over the space of a few seconds)
Have you checked the fault screen for current and recorded faults?
The adaptive at 37.3 is close to the upper limit. Have you got any AFR faults? They will be triggered if it reaches 37.5.
The classic cause of the AFR fault is lambdas on the wrong way round
Or a duff sensor
or bad contacts in the connector that sits on top of the bellhousing
Disconnect the sensors and use some contact cleaner on them
I have that the interdental brushes are really good for working contact cleaner into the female connector sockets.
The larger ones are a good fit but are soft enough not to distort the connector
Make sure they are connected correctly - there is an unreadable yellow label on each of the sensor wires
Whilst your at it you could do the same for the air and coolant temp sensors.
Are the cracked manifolds now fixed? Air getting into the manifold will definitely skew the lambdas such that it will increase the fuel in an attempt to reduce the oxygen (I think thats correct)
Other Suggestions
Get a screen grab of the adaptive maps. You can download them to the PC to view them
Then post them up here
Reset the adaptives.
See what it runs like with the adaptive map cleared
I had really rough running that was caused by filthy coolant temp contacts.
Possibly would get the same issue if the air temp sensor was giving wild readings (by wild I mean varying from 10 to 35 over the space of a few seconds)
Have you checked the fault screen for current and recorded faults?
The adaptive at 37.3 is close to the upper limit. Have you got any AFR faults? They will be triggered if it reaches 37.5.
The classic cause of the AFR fault is lambdas on the wrong way round
Or a duff sensor
or bad contacts in the connector that sits on top of the bellhousing
Disconnect the sensors and use some contact cleaner on them
I have that the interdental brushes are really good for working contact cleaner into the female connector sockets.
The larger ones are a good fit but are soft enough not to distort the connector
Make sure they are connected correctly - there is an unreadable yellow label on each of the sensor wires
Whilst your at it you could do the same for the air and coolant temp sensors.
Are the cracked manifolds now fixed? Air getting into the manifold will definitely skew the lambdas such that it will increase the fuel in an attempt to reduce the oxygen (I think thats correct)
Other Suggestions
Get a screen grab of the adaptive maps. You can download them to the PC to view them
Then post them up here
Reset the adaptives.
See what it runs like with the adaptive map cleared
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