Thinking of going to bike power
Discussion
Personally I wouldn't bother with a reverse box. The a car should only way about 500 kg or so, so pushing it backwards is easy. And with some careful driving/parking there is no need to do it anyway. As for engine, roughly how much are you looking to spend? That would determine my choice, as if I had the funds, a ZZR1400 would be the weapon of choice, but with less money then a ZX10, or R1 may be better. If I had loads of money, then a turbo Busa would go in! 
Right, this bit is ripped straight off the locost forum, should give an idea of prices:
2006 r1 6 kits around £1700
2007 r1 just the one £2200
2004 gsxr 1000 complete with clocks mint £1600 but may be sold
2006 gsxr 1000 x2 around £1750
2007 gsxr 1000 x2 £2200 but may be sold
2007 1000rr x3 £1600
2003 954 x2 £1250
cheers malc 07960011585
Give Malc a ring. He runs Yorkshire Engines and will be able it advise you on what you want/can afford. He knows his stuff and is always on hand for advice and help if things go wrong.
Right, this bit is ripped straight off the locost forum, should give an idea of prices:
2006 r1 6 kits around £1700
2007 r1 just the one £2200
2004 gsxr 1000 complete with clocks mint £1600 but may be sold
2006 gsxr 1000 x2 around £1750
2007 gsxr 1000 x2 £2200 but may be sold
2007 1000rr x3 £1600
2003 954 x2 £1250
cheers malc 07960011585
Give Malc a ring. He runs Yorkshire Engines and will be able it advise you on what you want/can afford. He knows his stuff and is always on hand for advice and help if things go wrong.
Edited by Snake the Sniper on Sunday 14th October 17:57
Snake the Sniper said:
Personally I wouldn't bother with a reverse box. The a car should only way about 500 kg or so, so pushing it backwards is easy. And with some careful driving/parking there is no need to do it anyway. As for engine, roughly how much are you looking to spend? That would determine my choice, as if I had the funds, a ZZR1400 would be the weapon of choice, but with less money then a ZX10, or R1 may be better. If I had loads of money, then a turbo Busa would go in!
I'm just toying with the idea at the moment, the VX lump at the moment is about 190bhp and the car is about 550kgs budget wise i either spend some coin on the car engine and take it up to 220ish plus a cr gearbox or do the bike thing which already has a gearbox but less power, so budget wise £1500 or will i need more? what about rear axle it's currently an english axleIf the axle will hold up behind the VX, then it'll be fine behind a bike lump. There are a few bits you'll need, such as a new exhaust manifold mounts, probably an engine cradle (in place of the normal mountings) and a new prop, as you're will be now be too short, and would need a centre bearing. Are you looking to go much quicker, or a for a different driving experience, or a bit of both? A bec is a lot different to drive, as you have 11krpm+ to play with, sometimes even as high as 14k! To go as fast you'll need less power, as you lose the heavy engine and gearbox, as my blackbird weighs in at 80 kgs IIRC, and that's engine,box, clutch everything really! Should see you well under 500 kgs. Oh, and you get a sequential box for free too!
Have you ever been out in a bec at all? Most people find them to be a huge amount of grin inducing fun.
Oh, you only got half of the first post, as I was busy editing it!
Have you ever been out in a bec at all? Most people find them to be a huge amount of grin inducing fun.
Oh, you only got half of the first post, as I was busy editing it!
Edited by Snake the Sniper on Sunday 14th October 18:21
Then you'll be wanting a bec! There's nothing quite like changing up at 11k rpm with a light flick of the wrist, and then carrying on doing so, all the while grinning like a loony! They are not very good at long distance stuff though, as mine, for example, runs at 6,750 rpm at 70 mph. And that can drone a bit, but mine has no carpet, plain GF seats with no padding and no windscreen, so you have to wear a crash hat. But then that's not what I brought it for. Because they are lighter than most other 7's, they will out handle and out brake a similar car with a car engine. The only thing to watch out for is the clutch, but they can be uprated easily, and the plates (they are nearly all multi-plate wet clutchs) changed in side an hour if required. Try and find a local person with one and blag a ride out. Most people love them, but they aren't for everyone.
With that budget, look for an earlier carb R1, 98ish, dead easy conversion.
Budget for a new tube in tube propshaft,from Bailey Morris as the solid car version wont work.
Watch your diff ratios too.CEC diff ratios are usually wrong for becs.
Becs corner faster, brake way later than cecs and rev for England.Huge fun, BUT , not for everyone.
Make sure you get a ride/drive in one first.
Budget for a new tube in tube propshaft,from Bailey Morris as the solid car version wont work.
Watch your diff ratios too.CEC diff ratios are usually wrong for becs.
Becs corner faster, brake way later than cecs and rev for England.Huge fun, BUT , not for everyone.
Make sure you get a ride/drive in one first.
Also be a bit wary of some of the really new bike engines. Their alternators are not quite up to the job in a car (they need to continually shed weight anually somehow) of running main beam lights ect at night, and can wear down the dinky battery very quickly. My car (Phoenix) has an R1 lump, previously a carb'ed version but now a 2003 injection. This is apparently the pick of the R1 engines. Not sure which engines can be problematic, think one of the GSXR1000's is a definate problem. ( I was warned by a couple of mates to steer clear of one particular car). I try not to drive at night, mainly because of the dazzle from other cars and my feeble low-down lights, but if your car is equipped with lights I think its fair you should be able to drive continuously without the worry of breaking down. But an even bigger problem with new engines can be the gearing, particularly first gear. They can be amazingly tall, affecting a BEC badly. Then its your axle ratio. In a live axle (Ford) car, 3.54 is the lowest ratio you can go and gives about 130mph top speed. (Mine) IRS is 3.38 or something. If you go 3.7 or lower you will end up with a 100mph car which will be unbearable. Hope that helps.
Edited by Furyblade_Lee on Sunday 14th October 21:49
I would be inclined to fit a sequential gearbox to your VX car instead of going BEC... I have had both CEC and BEC road and race cars and the next car i build will be CEC and Sequential. You get the best of both worlds with this combination.
If you buy a suitable sequential gearbox you already have a good future upgrade path to a 250-280bhp CEC that revs to 9000rpm with your VX lump. My preference would be duratec and sequential, but that is obviously a bit off topic.
Tim
If you buy a suitable sequential gearbox you already have a good future upgrade path to a 250-280bhp CEC that revs to 9000rpm with your VX lump. My preference would be duratec and sequential, but that is obviously a bit off topic.
Tim
Snake the Sniper said:
Out of curiosity, how much would that sort of gearbox set you back?
IIRC, the 6-speed sequential dog-engagement box that Quaife does for the Elise comes out at about £4.5K + VAT. But try before you buy... straight-cut, dog engagement gearboxes are a whole different ballgame to your 'normal' synchromesh gearbox and plenty of people would regard them as completely unsuitable for road use. They are very noisy and they have a very clunky, abrupt gear selection if you are just pootling.
Sam_68 said:
Snake the Sniper said:
Out of curiosity, how much would that sort of gearbox set you back?
IIRC, the 6-speed sequential dog-engagement box that Quaife does for the Elise comes out at about £4.5K + VAT. But try before you buy... straight-cut, dog engagement gearboxes are a whole different ballgame to your 'normal' synchromesh gearbox and plenty of people would regard them as completely unsuitable for road use. They are very noisy and they have a very clunky, abrupt gear selection if you are just pootling.
Snake the Sniper said:
Personally I wouldn't bother with a reverse box. The a car should only way about 500 kg or so, so pushing it backwards is easy. And with some careful driving/parking there is no need to do it anyway.
BEC enuthusiats always say that, but imagine meeting a tractor towing some big trailer down a country lane. Expecting them to reverse is not really on, and if you have to get out and push you car, possibly uphill for a hundred yards or so it won't be much fun.I have had two BEC's one with mechanical reverse, the current car without. When I got the car, the first job was to fit an electric reverse..... but I do not think I will bother now. I can push it no problem, even slightly uphill. The only problem is you cannot parallel park, in the supermarket it is fine, and in the car park outside my house it is also fine just pushing it even if there is a passenger strapped in. You just have to think a bit. Of course reverse will be better but I am not really missing it so far, and I have driven to the north of Belgium and back via the Ferry and a couple of trackdays.
Sam_68 said:
Snake the Sniper said:
Out of curiosity, how much would that sort of gearbox set you back?
IIRC, the 6-speed sequential dog-engagement box that Quaife does for the Elise comes out at about £4.5K + VAT. and i'm pretty sure the dog clutches don't last either so its quite a high expence/maintenance gear set up, the cars off the road now until next year so it will give me time for research and decision making, keep the info coming though and if there is anybody in Bristol area that would like to give me a ride in a BEC Mail me please
X-man said:
Sam_68 said:
Snake the Sniper said:
Out of curiosity, how much would that sort of gearbox set you back?
IIRC, the 6-speed sequential dog-engagement box that Quaife does for the Elise comes out at about £4.5K + VAT. and i'm pretty sure the dog clutches don't last either so its quite a high expence/maintenance gear set up, the cars off the road now until next year so it will give me time for research and decision making, keep the info coming though and if there is anybody in Bristol area that would like to give me a ride in a BEC Mail me please
I appreciate it's not as economical as a BEC conversion but, in my opinion, the end result will be a lot faster (with future engine upgrades) and more robust.
A replacement H pattern Dogbox would also give clutchless upshifts for a more reasonable amount of money.
I'm probably getting a bit far from the topic "changing to bike power".
I am just really trying to point out that, in my opinion, the only good points about bike power (sequential box / clutchles upshifts) can be added to a CEC.
CEC with dog / sequential is absolutely my preference over bike power, but each to their own!
As for the clutch... the things i have heard are that the wrong clutch damages the gearbox rather than the clutch (from early Elite gearbox owners)
If your after a ride in a BEC get on locostbuilders, someone will be along to offer a ride local to you.
If I wasn't on a budget then yes maybe CEC with sequential would be nice but I could buy 6 to 12 blade engines for the cost of the box alone dependant on which box you use (£3k to £6k)personally I think bike engines are every bit as reliable as a tuned car engine, probably more so if the truth be known.
My current blade engine is in its 7th year in the car, been thrashed to within an inch of its life regularly and still sits there purring away begging for more. A typical track day ends with lack of fuel rather then a lack of enthusiasm from under the bonnet. (Its had 3 clutch's in that time, 30 minute job £100 max a time)
If I wasn't on a budget then yes maybe CEC with sequential would be nice but I could buy 6 to 12 blade engines for the cost of the box alone dependant on which box you use (£3k to £6k)personally I think bike engines are every bit as reliable as a tuned car engine, probably more so if the truth be known.
My current blade engine is in its 7th year in the car, been thrashed to within an inch of its life regularly and still sits there purring away begging for more. A typical track day ends with lack of fuel rather then a lack of enthusiasm from under the bonnet. (Its had 3 clutch's in that time, 30 minute job £100 max a time)
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