Using car images/photos - copyright/trademark?

[jsr]

I will shortly be launching a website that will be using images of real cars, though not actual photos of cars - ie I create the graphic for each car, a small gif image, almost cartoon-like. However, you can clearly identify what each car is.

Would this be breaching copyright/trademark use? If so, how does any website get away with using photos of cars (unless permission is obtained in every case)?

My website will not be charging for use of the site, but i do intend to include advertising (banner-ads). The site will get big, and very quickly too (probably a million users within a year or so), so i dont want to break the law and draw attention to myself!

[Piglet]

Sorry, I don't understand...

Will you be starting with a photograph and then altering it so it looks like a cartoon or creating each image from scratch but by reference to (say) a Ford Mondeo?

[jsr]

I've tried both methods - starting from scratch can be done, but takes a lot longer than modifying or tracing a photograph - this is probably copyright abuse as it is a derivative of someone else's work.

However, is the car itself protected? I just need a side profile of a car (background will be blank/transparent).

Whilst i recognise that a photograph is copyrighted, what about the objects in the photograph?

[jsr]

This is the sort of thing i'm creating: (not my website btw, found on google)

Edited by jsr on Thursday 25th October 13:38

[HiRich]

Objects are highly unlikely to have a copyright claim - you can draw the car (pedantically, they might have a very obscure claim, but only in very detailed, specific cases - extremely unlikely unless you were trying to pass off). People may be a different matter, but still unlikely.

Tracing/Photoshopping a photo would be a breach of the original copyright (if done without permission). That of course assumes the original can be identfied:
- Profile: unlikely
- Powersliding through Copse Corner: has happened

[rpguk]

If your working from a photo you should strictly have the permission of the photographer but I don't see you having much trouble if the finished article is as different from the original photo as in the example.

As for the manufacturer, they might get pushy. Someone on here wrote recently about BMW chasing them over keyrings with a photo of a BMW sold on ebay. Not sure they have any right to but they have resources that'd make it pretty much irrelivent.

Are you going to be gaining financially from the pics on the website? Will they be produced physically or just exist on the site as backgrounds or whatever? The manufacturers are far more likely to get arsey if your competing directly with something they make or give licence for someone else to make.

Edited by rpguk on Thursday 25th October 15:07

[jsr]

Thanks HiRich and rpguk

The images will only be small (150ish pixels width) to represent the cars. They wont be reproduced physically and i wont be selling anything the manufacturers make or competing against them.

I wont be selling anything. A previous version of my site attracted a lot of hits without any car graphics - you may have seen my quarter mile simulator. I have now produced a much more sophisticated site but will sell advertising space (google ads to start with though).

I wont benefit directly from the car images, but what with Oink and tv-links being shut down recently and administrators arrested, i dont want to break the law (though i also wont be illegally sharing music etc!!!)

[Piglet]

Only just got back to this.

I have mixed thoughts - the comments about photographs already are spot on - you might be infringing but difficult to notice.

But....how will you be using the graphics? If it's some kind of racing game and you're using the names/images of cars I can see the manufactures having an issue with that on the basis they've probably got some kind of commercial rights. Not sure what though? The manufacturer names are probably trademarks but I'm not sure about model names? I'm pretty sure that game developers have to have manufacturers consent to include names and images but it's not an area I know much about.

Personally, if I was investing money in this and intending to get that many users I'd take some decent advice from an IP specialist now to avoid problems in the future.

[jsr]

Piglet said:

But....how will you be using the graphics? If it's some kind of racing game and you're using the names/images of cars I can see the manufactures having an issue with that on the basis they've probably got some kind of commercial rights. Not sure what though? The manufacturer names are probably trademarks but I'm not sure about model names? I'm pretty sure that game developers have to have manufacturers consent to include names and images but it's not an area I know much about.

Personally, if I was investing money in this and intending to get that many users I'd take some decent advice from an IP specialist now to avoid problems in the future.

This is what concerns me most. My site will only be a simulation, not an interactive game, and it will be free. There is the arguement that the cars and images would drive people and advertisers to the site so indirectly making money from them.

What i dont understand is there are countless motoring websites (forums, video sites, wallpaper sites, etc) that all have images of cars, use the make and model names, yet i doubt they have all obtained permission from the manufacturers and also copyright owners. I guess a lot of the sites are small and are 'under the radar'.

I think i will seek some Intellectual Property advice!

[Piglet]

I think you're right that most of them are "under the radar", they are also pretty harmless as far as the manufacturers are concerned as they are not making much money.

With a bigger volume and an intent to make money, I think it's worth a few hundred quid on decent legal advice to ensure you don't have a problem.

[timskipper]

jsr said:

The site will get big, and very quickly too (probably a million users within a year or so)

Never mind the copyright issue, I'm curious to know how you're going to achieve this and on what sort of budget!

[rpguk]

I remember seeing that 1/4 mile sim before and it's great!

Out of interest is it based on theoretical speeds or real run data?

It might be worth putting a small disclaimer or note just saying either it's based on theoretical published speeds or a particular drivers run as the manufacturers might get moody about their car being trounced by a rival if it's being presented as straight fact. Again I doubt you'll have any trouble but just thought I'd point it out.

[zaktoo]

timskipper said:

jsr said:

The site will get big, and very quickly too (probably a million users within a year or so)

Never mind the copyright issue, I'm curious to know how you're going to achieve this and on what sort of budget!

+1

[jsr]

rpguk said:

I remember seeing that 1/4 mile sim before and it's great!

Out of interest is it based on theoretical speeds or real run data?

It might be worth putting a small disclaimer or note just saying either it's based on theoretical published speeds or a particular drivers run as the manufacturers might get moody about their car being trounced by a rival if it's being presented as straight fact. Again I doubt you'll have any trouble but just thought I'd point it out.

Another good point. It is based upon recorded performance data and quoted 1/4 mile times. Conditions can very, and some cars are a tenth or two out, so will need a disclaimer. It a bit of fun more than anything.

So my legal costs are now intellectual property consultation and a terms and conditions review!!! It mounting up!!!

Glad you like the original - you will love the new version. Aim to launch by the end of the year.

Edited by jsr on Friday 26th October 14:08

[jsr]

zaktoo said:

timskipper said:

jsr said:

The site will get big, and very quickly too (probably a million users within a year or so)

Never mind the copyright issue, I'm curious to know how you're going to achieve this and on what sort of budget!

+1

My original site got fairly large in a short amount of time (25,000 hits per day) purely due to the viral nature of the web - i only posted one link on PH just for fun! It still generates traffic, though nowhere near previous levels (hasn't been updated in years) - will eventually direct people to the new site when ready.

I'm probably being over-optimistic, but the new site will be loads better than the original.

I'm not going to quit my day job. If nothing else, it's a bit of fun for car enthusiasts and a challenge for me to put my web design and coding skills to test. Other than server costs, and legal costs , i'm not going to spend much on it. If it takes off, great, if not, then i dont lose much, but will have still made a fun website!

It certainly wont be the next facebook, but i could face scaling problems at some stage.

[timskipper]

I admire your enthusiasm - the best of luck to you! <thumbsupsmileything>

You may already know this, so apologies if it sounds condescending, but "hits" is a pretty worthless metric; Unique visitors is what you want to turn into a big number.

[jsr]

timskipper said:

I admire your enthusiasm - the best of luck to you! <thumbsupsmileything>

You may already know this, so apologies if it sounds condescending, but "hits" is a pretty worthless metric; Unique visitors is what you want to turn into a big number.

I actually didn't realise this until a couple of months ago! My server stats showed roughly a third of the hits were unique though.

This time round, my site will track actual pageviews (so images and other files wont count as a hit) and also registered users. And probably some other useful stats.

[timskipper]

Add the Google Analytics code into your web pages - it's massively useful and a very small overhead.

[jsr]

timskipper said:

Add the Google Analytics code into your web pages - it's massively useful and a very small overhead.

Cool, i'll take a look

[AlexB]

The main problem with using images of recognisable cars and trade names is likely to be Passing Off (possibly trade mark infringement - if you are using the name and they have the mark registered for computer games/entertainment type goods/services - many will have such registrations due to the computer games industry!). They could also argue that you are unfairly trading off their reputation and goodwill.

Passing off is more tricky as they could argue that users could believe that the manufacturer has officially sanctioned your site and that you are a licensee - this can cause problems if they belive that tha site is not perfect as they can argue that you are damaging their reputation or revenue from their official advertising partners.

You would also need to ensure that your figures etc are correct (or have a substantial disclaimer). You may be able to get around the passing off issue with a disclaimer as if there is no misrepresentiaion then there can be no passing off.

Obviously take advice from an expert, but these are likely to be te issues you will have to worry about as the site grows and is picked up on 'the radar'...

Alex